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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

 July 05, 2004, 11:26:13 pm View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Way to go Dev >:( =P (Started by Just No Point June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 am
 Board: Hall of Fame
First of all, Loona, I don't know if you have a grudge against me, DEV, or a certain member in DEV's staff, and keep arguing because of that. My apologies if that's not true, but it's the only idea one can get from your messages.

Let's discuss your reply, since there are several points which are either non-sense or contradicted by yourself:


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We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
"Elecbyte1"
"Whiners In Numbers May Ultimately Get Elecbyte Nixed"
"Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte"

So, in your wisdom, this is credit. Then I suppose that Orochi's readme where insults brazilian creators is also good credit to brazil. And that calling someone idiot is also crediting that someone. I'm sorry but I cannot share your wisdom here.

Plus, if the elecbyte1 version was ever distributed without any documentation (the sentences you quoted are extracted from that documentation) it's impossible to deduce that elecbyte1 != elecbyte. (the executable is credited to Elecbyte1). So, your defense point is really weak, since you are only agreeing with what I posted previously. RouHei's version credits Elecbyte in the executable, and this credit will continue even if there's no documentation at all. That's why DEV allows its distribution, while elecbyte1's one is forbidden.

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- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site
"Giving the idea" isn't as solid as the fact that the domain name was renewed.

Keeping in mind that the domain is from Tucows, is most likely a prepaid automatic service. Therefore, as long as the account has some bucks, the domain will be renewed with no intervention from elecbyte. Moreover, even with the domain renewed, there are no facts of elecbyte being alive. Not all facts are what one believe they are. The domain being renewed doesn't imply that elecbyte is alive.

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The one Messatsu posted about?
Which members of the community, BTW? Some quotes of that might help to understand this, especially the bit about "discrediting Elecbyte".

To me, the fact of replacing "elecbyte" by "elecbyte1" and "****byte" (fuckbyte) is enough evidences of discrediting. If that's not discredit for you, then calling you "loonafucka" (motherfucker) shouldn't bother you, right? :P

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We promote Rouhei's version because:

- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
Several creators' sites still link to Elecbyte.com despite the fact that it doesn't work - it's hard to ignore that they created Mugen.

I don't care about leechers and players that download the characters. They all know that elecbyte made mugen. I care about the games sold at ebay and Hong Kong stores with mugen compilations. Those that buy these games don't have a clue on who made mugen. If they buy a mugen game credited to "Mega enterprise" they will believe that. We cannot stop the selling of such games, thus I prefer at least that the games have a credit to the original creators. However, Loona, seems that your community concept is focused only on forums, while my concept os focused worldwide. As I said, we took the decision of the lesser evil. If you cannot see what's the lesser and what's the greater evil, it's not my fault.

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- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such version
But now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
Consequences of that are already visible, like FlowaGirl's decision to remove the DOS versions of this creations from his site and adding there a link to Rou Hei's site...

That's a complete non-sense and shows your poor understanding of the creator's point of view. Do you believe we wouldn't have stopped public releases of capcom characters' if Capcom did say "no" to our question about using their sprites? And btw, do you really think that Flowa won't bring back his DOS characters if Elecbyte tells not to use winmugen? Flowa will bring back his characters without any hesitation, if that ever happens. Btw, Flowa was one of the creators asked to say his opinion on this before we took the decision, and he agreed with our decission. Do a bit of research next time to want to argue something.

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- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.
This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.

Is that difficult to understand for you that while the Elecbyte1 version modified credits adding useless content and flames, Rouhei's version simply unlocks what was there before? Rouhei's didn't add anything extra. All the unloocked modes were already included by elecbyte. Hence rouhei's version is exactly what Elecbyte gave to donators, while elecbyte1's added extra stuff. WE allow RH's version because it keeps Elecbyte's soul in it.

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We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.
Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
You said "DEV was the first one to contact rouhei", so it wasn't a choice, but an initiative - that's forcing a choice to be made here.
At least this time it's not forcing one of the options...

We saw that Rouhei was working on unlocking the character limit. We positively realized that if some guy did it, any one else could do that in only a matter of time. Then, we contacted RH and asked him about the difficulties unlocking the version, and he replied us that actually it was easy, as long you find the right spot. He happened to be the first one to find that out, but he was sure that other crackers will soon it sooner or later. Then, we took the decission of having a supported version, in hopes that once being unlocked, no one else will attempt to do that (and in the meanwhile, add extra stuff or modify elecbyte's credit). We were forced to take a decission in order to save the community and Elecbyte's name in the long run. It hasn't been easy for us, and we took into account every positive/negative factor it could arise with our decission. Also, several creators that counted with the community knowledge and experience were asked to say their opinion. After all that input, a decission was made. I'm sorry if you didn't qualify for that, but there are creators that have been longer in this community than you. Seems that you're angry for not being chosen. Don't blame that on me.
    

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

 July 03, 2004, 01:18:56 am View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Way to go Dev >:( =P (Started by Just No Point June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 am
 Board: Hall of Fame
The Dreamslayer said, July 02, 2004, 08:09:33 pm
I fully agree that if possible all feedback go back to Dev.

But should we not expand the rights to use abandoned stuff that creators left behind?

To me allowing this is more severe than simply grabbing some stuff a creator abandoned.

It's not the same, because a character that has been "abandoned" still works in your mugen. And in case it doesn't you can release "patches" or fixes like Winane does with other characters (telling people how to fix X character)

The creator still has the property of the code and his work is credited. In the same way, Elecbyte is still the owner of elecbyte, and Rouhei's work credits elecbyte.

When a thief uses code from other creators, he doesn't credit them, thus it's against the ethic of the community.

As conclusion, characters abandoned still retains the ownership of the creator, because there's no need for official support in order to make it work, therfore you cannot take it as "abandonware". Mugen, in the other way, has been abandoned and there's no official support. Hence if you need to "fix" it in order to use it in newer computers.
    

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

 July 02, 2004, 07:44:02 pm View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Way to go Dev >:( =P (Started by Just No Point June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 am
 Board: Hall of Fame
Let's see, I'm in a rush, but I'll try to address to anyone. Apologies if I leave someone without a reply.

@loona:

We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site
- the DOS hack (yes, there was one prior to the winmugen one) was full with flames to certain members of the community as well, as discrediting Elecbyte.

We promote Rouhei's version because:

- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such version
- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.

We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said. I prefer having a version working and the community happy with it and praising Elecbyte as the original creators, than everybody using a warezed/hacked version crediting to Elecbyte1 (or any other name since you can change it) and forgetting in the long run that mugen originated from Elecbyte. I don't want wither to find winmugen spreading in underground/warez scenes and people from the mugen community migrating to those communities. That will mean the end of our community. Decisions were difficult to take, but we beleived it's the best way to behave.

regarding the  banned people from the elecbyte1 incident, you can unban them. I wonder why you didn't unban them before, since that ban was intended as a temporary one and not a definite one.

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Should Elecbyte find out about this new hack (so far it seems unlikely, unless they've secretly kept an account at Dev for some time and happen to drop by one of these days, or perhaps many months from now) and tell Rou Hei to stop, would this reflect on that new section of Dev's?...
With the renewal of the elecbyte.com domain name for another year, how can we be sure that's not a possibility?...
Considering Dev's completely opposite attitudes regarding the subject at different times still within the validity of that domain name, I think it's reasonable to ask about this...

Now it's time for some hypothesis. We argued that with other developers the days before taking our decission.

We don't beleive that Elecbyte will return. It's now clear that they won't do that, and the renewal of their domain is only justified to avoid domain-thieves taking that domain name and turning it into a pr0n/warez site. If I were elecbyte I wouldn't like the idea of having a pr0n site using my name. And why in the hell would you pay for a domain if you aren't actually using it? the only reasonable reason is in order to protect the name.

Furthermore, we believe that Elecbyte was decided to abandon mugen. What company in his sanity will give betas of their program to people they don't know on the internet, and expect them to keep it privately? It's expected that the beta will be leaked to friends, and these friends will leak to other friends, and etc... Locking features will allow to hold the openly distribution of such beta. But why did elecbyte just blocked the modes? Wouldn't it be better to simply remove them?? They could have released a minimugen version if they wanted, but they didn't. they just released a beta with all stuff included, just locked, that any hacker with some ASM knowledge will be able to unlock it.

And why then they wanted donations? To buy a compiler? WTF, they already compiled the program and it ran fine, before getting donations. The compiler excuse was just to get some bucks for their work. They knew that it wasn't viable to have mugen being sold, since everybody will stick to the free version, and I guess that they expected more donations and the few ones made them to find out that selling mugen wasn't viable.

Therefore, the conclusion is that they deliberately decided to close the doors, give a functional beta to some people knowing that someday this beta will be fiunctional due to some ASM tweaking. Leaking betas wasn't new to them. once in the past they allowed peopel to betatest their storyboard player, and it was leaked and published in many sites (although it's use wasn't interesting for gaming thus people soon forgot about this program). They already knew that people leked their bet before they released winmugen.

So, that's why we beleive that Elecbyte won't return. And therefore, official support for mugen is over.

MFG can announce rouhei's version freely. We only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it. And certainly, it's utopic to say that someone will forward all that feedback to DEV in real time, since it won't happen. The fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum. So, why "waste" feedback that can be vital, if they can just post that in DEV. Btw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities? Then, why are you forbidding the possibility for such members to register in another community so they can post their feedback? In DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG. Why can MFG tell their members to go to DEV and post feedback. Seems unfairly to me if you don't allow that.

And there's a reason to have all feeedback focused in an only place: Could you imagine a program like MAME if all developers used their own places to improve the program and weren't in touch with the other devleopers. You will end up with multiple MAME emulators each one emulating different games and having different features. There must be an unique and official place where the developers meet and share their knowledge. It happens that DEV was the first one to contact rouhei and he agreed with the idea, weeks before the "hack" was announced. It's the drawback of the resources that DEV has, and sadly MFG doesn't. maybe in the future MFG will be the main hub of mugen community, as it was TESTP in the past. But currently, DEV is still THE hub, even if there's few activity in the forum.

@Sepp: Yes, you can argue that this is only a maneuver to revive DEV, but it doesn't really matter if it is or not.

The fact is that mugen community was fading and many creators either quit or kept their work under secrecy shared only with friends that happen to use a hacked mugen version.

After the announcing of our decission, many creators have returned to business. I prefer the revival of the community (especially the creative one) than just the revival of a simple forum. It happens that DEV was in the right place at the right time, but it could have happened with any other forum.  
    

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

 June 30, 2004, 03:57:02 am View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Way to go Dev >:( =P (Started by Just No Point June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 am
 Board: Hall of Fame
All feedback must be done through DEV, so it's ok to spread the news about the hack, but please add the link to the special area in DEV.

The idea is to have a common knowledge base for winmugen's data. Things may go bad if everybody starts posting questions, bugs and requests in multiple forums. Plus, having DEV as the only reference point will keep Rou Hei's inbox safe.

And last but not least, DEV may serve as a gateway for other people to help Rou Hei in his work.  Having all possible help and resources scattered in multiple places won't help in any way the evolution of winmugen.

Rou Hei is a busy man and he cannot waste time surfing through multiple forums in order to gather feedback, plus his english skills aren't very good :)
    

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P

 June 30, 2004, 03:27:08 am View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Way to go Dev >:( =P (Started by Just No Point June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 am
 Board: Hall of Fame
Why DEV promotes this version and not the previous one?

Easy. The Elecbyte1 version clearly altered the program modifying the names of the creators, thus Elecbyte is not credited as the original creators.

Rou Hei's version keeps Elecbyte's name intact, and only unlocks modes that are already included in the executable. We believe that Rou Hei's work is in the "gray area" while Elecbyte1's ones is clearly negative from all points of view.

Plus, I invite the rest of the staff to look carefully the "history of winmugen" posted at DEV, where we clearly state why we promote this version.

And last but not least, our effort is to "control" in some way the alterations made to the engine. It's unavoidable that people is hacking the engine. However, if we promote and support an unlocked version, this could refrain other groups tryinf to hack the engine, and who knows, attaching a trojan in it.

I would like to hear your opinion about this, but I expect you will fully agree with our decission.
    

Re:Character - Stage interaction

 May 06, 2004, 03:38:29 pm View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Character - Stage interaction  (Started by VIB April 11, 2004, 01:17:59 pm
 Board: Code Library
VIB said, May 06, 2004, 07:09:05 am
Isn't there any other way of using the mame game list? Like ordering the games by date?

date???  :o  Care to develop why do you want to group games by date??? It's pretty useless imo
    

Re:Character - Stage interaction

 May 06, 2004, 02:07:02 am View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Character - Stage interaction  (Started by VIB April 11, 2004, 01:17:59 pm
 Board: Code Library
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XGargoyle said, May 06, 2004, 01:19:56 am
Some suggestions:

- Creators can include in their stages a standard fightfx.sff with the sprites that could include graphic effects like water, bombs, etcetera...

Might as well just provide the PCX files, the text file to feed to SPRmaker and a fightfx.air or whatever's the name of the file that usually defines those animations - that'd make it simpler to update your own fightfx if you're using several different stages that take advantage of this...

Yes, that could be better.

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- Neogeo games have a unique ID, which can be used to classify NG games. For example, KOF97 has an ID=232, so we can use the ID of 232xxxx for every stage from that game. There are 10000 possible variations, which gives enough room for alternate versions

I think this also applies to GBA games... if it applied to other consoles like Megadrive/Genesis it'd be excellent, as there could be a number code for the console, one for the game and one for the stage... But then again, we'd still need a considerable number range for original and edited stages...

There are enough room for original and edited stages. Moreover, I believe it's better to group the stages by games and not by console (stages from SF2 for SNES will share the same ID prefix than the Genesis and CPS1 versions) Plus, how many games can you count that would require stage interaction??

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- Non neogeo games need to define their IDs, but I suggest that we can set a standard using the rom name (parent) and replacing letters by numbers (as in a dial phone), in a way as Loona suggested. For example, SSF2 (romname ssf2.zip) can be converted to ID= 7732xxxx (S=7, F=3, 2=2)

The dial method seems unreliable - Final Fight and Double Dragon would have the same code, for example (D=3=F)...

Unreliable? It's a first come, first served basis. The first guy who makes an interactive stage from X game, sets its ID, according to a number standard. If you make a stage from another game and happens to have the same ID as another existing game, then you will have to add a "1" at the end of the ID suffix to differentiate it from the other game. I choose 1 because there's no letters assigned to number 1 in a phone. For example:

Creator A makes a stage from game A and sets the ID to 4567xxxx
Creator B makes after a stage from game B but has the same ID as another previous game -> the ID becomes 4567 + 1 + xxxx -> 45671xxxx
Obviously, you need to keep a database with all interactive stages that are being converted to mugen, so you don't pick an already existing ID

Btw, Double Dragon is ddragon=3372466 while Final Fight is ffight=334448. You can use the MAME naming standard for arcade games.  

To sum up, it doesn't matter what IDs you choose for a game, as long as it doesn't match with another already existing. My suggestions are to keep a standard, but if there are exceptions that fail, then they are welcome to have their own ID. And last but not least, I don't expect to have more than 100 interactive stages, because actually few stages from available games include these features
    

Re:Character - Stage interaction

 May 06, 2004, 01:19:56 am View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in Character - Stage interaction  (Started by VIB April 11, 2004, 01:17:59 pm
 Board: Code Library
Some suggestions:

- Creators can include in their stages a standard fightfx.sff with the sprites that could include graphic effects like water, bombs, etcetera...

- Someone could gather all the new sprites added in multiple stages and compile them into a new standard fightfx.sff, which can be freely distributed as Elecbyte states in their license agreement term #2.

- Neogeo games have a unique ID, which can be used to classify NG games. For example, KOF97 has an ID=232, so we can use the ID of 232xxxx for every stage from that game. There are 10000 possible variations, which gives enough room for alternate versions

- Non neogeo games need to define their IDs, but I suggest that we can set a standard using the rom name (parent) and replacing letters by numbers (as in a dial phone), in a way as Loona suggested. For example, SSF2 (romname ssf2.zip) can be converted to ID= 7732xxxx (S=7, F=3, 2=2)

Just my 2 cents.
    

Re:How To Make Hidden Stages

 November 10, 2003, 08:26:45 pm View in topic context
 Posted by XGargoyle  in How To Make Hidden Stages  (Started by squallcolin November 09, 2003, 05:32:49 pm
 Board: Introductions and Guides
I prefer people postin such tips ather than posting questions like "how can I add more than 10 characters in mugen".

At least he's trying to apport something instead of leeching, like the 98% of the users of this forum.

 
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