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Re: AI difficulty

 November 14, 2007, 06:28:04 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in AI difficulty (Started by cataract November 07, 2007, 04:07:58 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Dragon Claw and Tifa_L, for starters.

Also technically there is no such thing as a "lesser AI". It is all a matter of opinion. For me, many AIs that some people label challengining, I would label cheap because after judging teh results and the coding, they use strategies that I don't consider fair on any level.

When I say 'lesser A.I' I mean ones with more lag, less responses to various situations, and so on. 

I'd be interested to hear some examples of what you mean with the bolded.
    

Re: AI difficulty

 November 14, 2007, 10:15:47 am View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in AI difficulty (Started by cataract November 07, 2007, 04:07:58 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
...Wow.  Quite a storm brewing here.(This was brought to my attention again by a PM.)

It's not a matter of 'stupidity', willful or otherwise.  At least, I don't see it as such.

Rather, a human cannot beat an A.I in reaction time(Well, of course, it's a COMPUTER).  The more routines to deal with different situations, and the less lag time between the activation of various routines, the more impossible it gets for a human, or even a 'lesser' A.I, to deal with.  Cheap Boss Type(Disregarding the more 'off' elements) is one of the ultimate examples of this.  There's no lag in his movements at all.  There ARE no openings for you to use. 

Necromancer's Broli is another example.  The routines come swiftly, with little chance to even block, let alone counterattack.  Openings are few and far between.  An average player with an average character stands very little chance(I hesitate to say 'no chance', as crazier things have happened.)

Yet another example is with those characters with Parry commands or similar things.  An A.I most certainly has the potential to parry anything and EVERYTHING with little to no effort, with the proper coding behind it(Check that an attack move's in range, if so, activate parry command).  Some try to keep characters from activating Parry too much.  Some go all-out.  A human would have to train their reactions to a very high degree to achieve similar.  (Witness the awe that occured with a skilled Street Fighter 3 player parrying Chun-Li's entire fierce Lightning Kick.)

Now, I will admit that with enough knowledge of how a character's A.I works, the CSLNs of various moves, pausetimes, etc, it should be theoretically possible to defeat anything.  But should such deep analysis be needed, be desirable?  Particularly if you're only getting the info through long, painful trial-and-error through defeat after defeat after defeat...I am suddenly reminded of a review I read recently of one of the older Fatal Fury games.  The reviewer got to Geese Howard, and then, along with 12 other members of staff, spent something like 70 continues trying to beat him.  And only managed it by 'cheese tactics'.(Googling to find the review, turns out it was by IGN: http://videogames.yahoo.com/ps2/fatal-fury-battle-archives-vol-1/review-1080435. Now you may say 'they all suck'.  I'm not convinced.)

Geese is technically another example of what I mentioned two paragraphs ago.  Theoretically, he could be invincible to anything but projectiles through his counter moves, and projectiles are blocked/countered by Reppukens.  It would take a human quite a lot of time to get to that point, and they would still have the potential of making mistakes, or simply not reacting to a move fast enough.  An A.I could pull it off effortlessly.  It wouldn't even be so difficult.  Check that a move's in close range, check where the move's going to hit, do the appropriate counter.

Do you deny any of this?

...Damm.  Something in this lot of posts set me off.  I apologise if I've been stupid somehow.

---

One last, minor, random point:
Custom A.Is and Training Mode do not mix.  Turn it on, and you can't turn it OFF again.  People should add triggers to deal with that, if possible.
    

Re: Throwing problems.

 November 13, 2007, 03:26:55 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Throwing problems. (Started by Bloodly November 11, 2007, 10:15:18 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
You people have been very patient with me with all my questions.  I'm thankful. 

I'll see what happens.
    

Re: Throwing problems.

 November 12, 2007, 06:39:19 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Throwing problems. (Started by Bloodly November 11, 2007, 10:15:18 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
type = S
movetype = H
physics = N
velset = 0,-20
poweradd = 40

Surely that should do it?
This is the throw frame, this is the one where it flies off.

Even if not, I've tried adding VelSets and Veladds just before on on the frame the throw state activates, too.  No joy.

I've got no clue at all why it isn't working.  The bind's fine, but no throw.
    

Re: Throwing problems.

 November 11, 2007, 04:47:30 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Throwing problems. (Started by Bloodly November 11, 2007, 10:15:18 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
...That didn't work.  It dropped them after the helper was gone.
    

Re: If Capcom never made the Evils, Shins, Gods, If SNK never made the Orochis, etc.

 November 11, 2007, 12:42:35 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in If Capcom never made the Evils, Shins, Gods, If SNK never made the Orochis, etc. (Started by hjk November 10, 2007, 05:03:06 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Well, the point of 'Shin' Gouki is he's not holding back anymore.

Complete?  Absolute?

...Got it.  Given the apparent age difference between the standard and the Lv2...

'Gouki the ancient one' or just 'Ancient' Gouki.  Or just 'Old Master', perhaps....
    

Re: If Capcom never made the Evils, Shins, Gods, If SNK never made the Orochis, etc.

 November 11, 2007, 12:07:22 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in If Capcom never made the Evils, Shins, Gods, If SNK never made the Orochis, etc. (Started by hjk November 10, 2007, 05:03:06 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Oh, there's already Shin lvl 2.

I truly wonder if Proxcide is aware of what he started when he made that Flash.  'Shin Lv 2' doesn't even work as a fighting game thing-nothing he does is 'possible' under most fighting game rules.  Which is half the reason he seems cool, perhaps.

Not forgetting that 'Shin' means 'True'.  True Lv2....
    

Throwing problems.

 November 11, 2007, 10:15:18 am View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Throwing problems. (Started by Bloodly November 11, 2007, 10:15:18 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
Yet another problem from me.  It figures they're stacking up close to the end...

Anyway.  The move is meant to be as follows: a helper is created, traps the target for a time, then tosses them in the air(causing damage) before disappearing.

The helper works, the trapping works, the disapperence works.  The tossing....not so much.

---

;Helper's state
[Statedef 1031]
type = S
movetype = A
physics = S
anim = 1030
sprpriority = 2

[State 1031, Hit]
type = HitDef
Trigger1 = Animelem = 3
Trigger2 = Animelem = 4
Trigger3 = Animelem = 5
Trigger4 = Animelem = 6
Trigger5 = Animelem = 7
attr = S, NA
hitflag = M
sparkno = -1
p2stateno = 820
persistent = 1

[State 1031, Bind]
trigger1 = MoveContact
type = TargetBind
time = 40
pos = 0, 0

[State 1031, damage]
trigger1 = AnimElem = 8
Type = TargetLifeadd
value = -60

[State 1031, Throw]
Trigger1 = AnimElem = 8
type = TargetState
value = 1032

[State 1031, Destroy]
trigger1 = Animtime = 0
type = DestroySelf

;---

[Statedef 1032]
type = S
movetype = H
physics = N
velset = 0,-20
poweradd = 40

[State 1032, 1] ;Gravity
type = VelAdd
Trigger1 = 1
y = .4

[State 1032, 2] ; Recover near ground (use ChangeState)
type = ChangeState
triggerall = Vel Y > 0
triggerall = Pos Y >= -20
triggerall = alive
triggerall = CanRecover
trigger1 = Command = "recovery"
value = 5200 ;HITFALL_RECOVER

[State 1032, 3] ; Recover in mid air (use SelfState)
type = SelfState
triggerall = Vel Y > 0
triggerall = alive
triggerall = CanRecover
trigger1 = Command = "recovery"
value = 5210 ;HITFALL_AIRRECOVER

[State 1032, 4] ;Hit ground
type = SelfState
trigger1 = Vel Y > 0
trigger1 = Pos Y >= 0
value = 5100 ;Hit ground

---

Any ideas?

Thank you for your time.
    

Re: Simple for some.....but I can't do it.

 November 10, 2007, 07:55:57 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Simple for some.....but I can't do it. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 10:44:22 am
 Board: Development Resources
I'll see if this works out.  Thank you.  You may have brought my character very close to completion: these are some of the last moves that need doing.
    

Re: If Capcom never made the Evils, Shins, Gods, If SNK never made the Orochis, etc.

 November 10, 2007, 07:52:52 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in If Capcom never made the Evils, Shins, Gods, If SNK never made the Orochis, etc. (Started by hjk November 10, 2007, 05:03:06 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
We'd likely see more 'Possessed' or 'Super' or 'Psycho' characters.  Bison's always good for a power-up.
    

Re: On Explods and attacks.

 November 10, 2007, 07:17:07 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in On Explods and attacks. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 06:59:08 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
I have a basic understanding of Helpers(Creating the move 'Operation Meteor System' would have been impossible without).  It doesn't apply.  Calling a Helper for a basic punch is....a bit much, it feels like.
Too much code to deal with my pitiful art skills.

Helper: Hard to describe.  The command creates....call it a 'dummy' of you, with full access to your animations and states.  It's animation(s), starting states, states it can change to, whether it can take command input from you, etc. is set by you.  It will remain till forced to disappear.  Even if the dummy is allowed to be attacked(By giving the Helper collision boxes), the damage done will not transfer to you.

The main use of it is to create an effect that doesn't involve your character directly, that can't be covered by things like Projectile.  For example, a beam of energy from the sky.  Or a 'Striker'-a character that jumps in, does something, and disappears.
    

Re: Simple for some.....but I can't do it.

 November 10, 2007, 06:53:42 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Simple for some.....but I can't do it. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 10:44:22 am
 Board: Development Resources
Very well.  From PNG to PCX to PNG again.  I'll pair them up.

----

+

....Can you see the spike below his crossed hands?  It's meant to come from there.

+

Same here.  This one is the more important, as it's the part of the animation that'll be an attack.

+ +

It comes from his hand.

----

It's the fact that I can't do it without inadvertently erasing some of the images that gets me to seek help.
    

Re: Simple for some.....but I can't do it.

 November 10, 2007, 01:20:55 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Simple for some.....but I can't do it. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 10:44:22 am
 Board: Development Resources
2 into 1.

Without anything being outright erased in the overlaying.
    

Simple for some.....but I can't do it.

 November 10, 2007, 10:44:22 am View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Simple for some.....but I can't do it. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 10:44:22 am
 Board: Development Resources
Fusing two images together so they are as one....without erasing anything important from either.

I can't do it.

I'd apprieciate some help, if possible.

I can send the images(They're already PCX).

Probably take less than 5 minutes.
    

Re: On Explods and attacks.

 November 10, 2007, 10:41:08 am View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in On Explods and attacks. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 06:59:08 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
Dammnation.

I was hoping I could use a Explod to effectively 'fuse' two sprite images together, and have them come together properly.  There's two parts-the attacker, and the blade.  They're seperate pictures.  I can't get them to come together right in GIMP myself, so I was hoping for a work-around.

Guess I'll have to ask for help.
    

Dead Fantasy 1

 November 10, 2007, 10:21:46 am View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in Dead Fantasy 1 (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 10:21:46 am
 Board: Entertainment
    

On Explods and attacks.

 November 10, 2007, 06:59:08 am View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in On Explods and attacks. (Started by Bloodly November 10, 2007, 06:59:08 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Development Help
Here's an odd one.

There is an animation.  The animation calls on an Explod, and activates a HitDef at the same time.  The Explod has an attack box.

Will the explod hit?
    

Re: AI difficulty

 November 08, 2007, 09:17:27 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in AI difficulty (Started by cataract November 07, 2007, 04:07:58 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
You're not a benchmark.  No-one is.

And you've missed my point.

Having to do that sort of thing isn't in my particular 'book of fun'.  It should not be required.  At all.

After all, we do play for fun....right?

The fact that you think of that kind of example(Fractions of seconds-a minute opening by any standard)as standard, as 'par for the course'...disturbing.
    

Re: AI difficulty

 November 08, 2007, 07:22:05 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in AI difficulty (Started by cataract November 07, 2007, 04:07:58 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Answering the main post:

Not really.  The way 'A.I' in characters is set up, as I understand it, is that it blocks the standard Mugen A.I(which is 'non-competetive', as admitted in the documentation)and executes it's own internal routines instead, based on various conditions(Like, 'do this if a projectile's coming', 'do this if they're long-range', 'do this if they're in close', etc.)  Because of this, changing the difficulty does NOTHING-you can't change triggers by those means.

You'd have to remove/comment out those states that led to the various A.I commands.  You could vary it up by only commenting out some parts of it.

Of course, that assumes you can identify those states that ARE A.I commands, assuming they're not convieniently marked.

That's about the only way I can see to change difficulty in characters with A.I.

But that's stupid. Who the hell would want to play a game that LITERALLY lets you win because of the AI? I'd rather have a CHALLENGE.

'Challenge' is one thing.  Literally not being able to get a look in-not even ATTACK, with some-is quite another.  Your being able to beat an opponent shouldn't be based off having to exploit the A.I-because not everyone is going to put that much time and effort in to even work out that there's a pattern, let alone work out how to turn that pattern into victory.

...Then again, 'challenge' means different things to different people.
    

Re: MUGEN, and music.

 November 07, 2007, 04:49:57 pm View in topic context
avatar  Posted by Bloodly  in MUGEN, and music. (Started by Bloodly November 06, 2007, 03:50:13 pm
 Board: Development
Figures.
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