The Mugen Fighters Guild

Administration => Public Staff discussion => Topic started by: Valodim on April 06, 2008, 05:56:28 pm

Title: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 06, 2008, 05:56:28 pm
YES

I know we had the discussion numerous times before. Bringing it up again for... uh, no reason in particular. I just stumbled upon this smf mod, "Advanced Reputation System".

It's quite different from karma:
- reputation given depends on own reputation
- reputation is always associated with a post or thread
- reputation is logged, so a member can see what got him the "+1"
- reputation can be commented, possibly even mandatorily commented

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=230676.0

I think this is quite interesting. Especially considering feedback in releases and help on the help forums, and since it's always "per post" it can be restricted to forums where it makes sense to give. There is also no negative reputation, you either do good and get rep for it, or you don't.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Cyanide on April 07, 2008, 02:21:32 am
I don't mind the idea that much. But is there any method at all of lowering it (mod/admin based)? There are people who would take it too seriously when their rep went up and would possibly go looking for methods of getting it raised by convincing other users to do it. Then act superior cos their rep was good. We all know it happens, but need to think of these things as a possible source of problems.

Workarounds or things to prevent this should be implemented.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 07, 2008, 11:53:50 pm
restrict permission to give rep to n+ posts, or something. privileges may also be revoked when abused

specific rep entries can be deleted. they are associated with the posts/threads given for and possibly have a comment, so it's simple to see if it made sense or not

I'm not sure if there's a time-based limit on how often a user can give rep, but that's easy to implement if it's not already in there. Which I think it is.

also, we could make stars reputation-dependent, instead of post-dependent. if it works out about okay, that would actually make stars about quality, not quantity. we don't even have to show any numeric reputation value that way.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 09, 2008, 02:31:19 am
oh it would also force me to update to smf 2.0 :P

more opinions please
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Titiln on April 09, 2008, 02:59:32 am
like i said in #mugen i'm neutral on this. it's worth a shot, and the way you described it i don't see it doing any harm
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: PotS on April 09, 2008, 05:10:41 am
It's "meh". We got rid of visible post counts to avoid what this would achieve, only taking people seriously if their e-peen is over 9k (:D).
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Tony 3rd on April 09, 2008, 05:25:50 am
It's "meh". We got rid of visible post counts to avoid what this would achieve, only taking people seriously if their e-peen is over 9k (:D).

yeah... but if things work as Val is saying, the only ones that would be taken serious would be the ones worth of it.

never used karma on any boards, so i can't compare.

for me, its worth a shot. if it don't work, we get back to how thing are now, give them the "fight club treatment".
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Titiln on April 09, 2008, 05:34:09 am
val add the posticons and filter to the release subforums because i couldn't really figure it out ;D
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Sepp on April 09, 2008, 12:52:28 pm
Yes, we must get the filters in there already (http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=75355.msg655597#msg655597). Every day without them adds more topics we will have to categorize ourselves afterwards.


It's "meh". We got rid of visible post counts to avoid what this would achieve, only taking people seriously if their e-peen is over 9k (:D).

Yes, but if those people exist, then currently they value only the number of stars. See? What can we even do about them?

Important in my eyes is this: postcount counts posts, deluded aspirants to greatness might want to post more. This mod tracks value, deluded aspirants to greatness might want to post better.

Yay for SMF 2.0!

     Make it so. :smile: Errrr...
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Iced on April 09, 2008, 03:18:57 pm
Isnt this the system that infantry uses?
Title: You have no honor!
Post by: Sepp on April 09, 2008, 04:51:28 pm
Infantry uses the built-in karma system of SMF. It works like this, you'll see why we don't like it:

Each user has karma points (honor at Infantry) displayed in his profile. They can either be shown as one total number or separately as two numbers: the amount of negative and positive points you have recieved. These points can be given to you for a post; all there is to it is basically a +1 and -1 (medic and snipe at Infantry) button next to each post you make, which others (with permission) can press.

Hitting them changes the number and reloads the page. That's all. +1 and -1 buttons remain, but you are blocked from influencing that user's karma again for one hour (or another time span).

This is flawed and almost completely useless except for fun (http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6687); the only effect anybody can see from the karma system in use is karma points in each user's profile. There is nothing else. You don't know who gave you plus or minus points for which post or why, and it does not help forum experience so that you might be able to see the ratings a post got next to the post, for example. It's always just anonymous I LOVE THIS USER or DIE DIE DIE. This was the origin of "+1" posts: because you had no other visible way to inform the world of which user you were giving ups or downs for which post, you would often hit KARMA UP button and then additionally make your action known by also rewarding a good post with an otherwise empty "+1, thumbs-up!" message in a thread.

I think---since the buttons don't go away---you can even just wait one hour and then give the same user negative karma again for the same post. Administrators can set karma points directly in this system, that's how you get people with over 18,000. What you also get, just from normal use, is profiles like his (http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=518), who's been there for a long time and currently has total honor of 1. That's data, not information. Doesn't say anything. It could mean: this user has gotten 200 minus and 201 plus points, or 2 and 3 respectively. Perhaps the number was set by an admin. Even if you could know which is the case, that still doesn't really help. Maybe he posts sensible all the time but has half a dozen enemies who snipe him every hour, maybe it's the other way round, or perhaps it's balanced between friends and foes. And so on.

Certainly it could be employed with a little less focus on fun, and we could try to encourage more serious use of it... but the system itself is too flawed for that, I say. It's good either with an emphasis on fun like Infantry does it, or not at all. Of course some of these issues, especially "Okay, but what, really, is the actual value of such a number? What can we tell from it?" remain with the mod Val linked to---but the system sounds about as good as it could get from the sois great! I love itare [opposite of hardware] side.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 09, 2008, 11:04:26 pm
val add the posticons and filter to the release subforums because i couldn't really figure it out ;D

done, aand done.

wait I don't get it, was sepp's vote a yes or a no? :thinking:
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Cyanide on April 09, 2008, 11:05:29 pm
I would like to point out an immense failing in titiln's censor of F_T_W as it causes the highly common word on this forum soft_ware to stuff up. And make Sepp's last sentence look odd  ;P
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Iced on April 09, 2008, 11:07:51 pm
Eh, I see it all as a sort of Soft report section. "I dont like you but you havent done anything technically wrong." .
I find it uneeded, go for it if you want to have fun, but I dont see much of a point to it.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 09, 2008, 11:12:34 pm
...what? Either I didn't understand or you completely missed the point.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Iced on April 09, 2008, 11:18:20 pm
Think about it this way, most people would use the karmic system to either praise someone they like "oh always great feedback as usual!" or to berate someone they dislike dont know "Useless feedback/ taste/ideas"
We have seen tons of reports where the people reporting do it for the most vague of notions, the same would be done with a karma system, the change would be that they would feel less unjustified to judge someone else.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Sepp on April 09, 2008, 11:28:14 pm
But with that system we could at least see it happening. And worst case, if that's really what most people will do (have some faith!) and if it doesn't add anything, it can be deactivated again. Hm. This is future either way. First everything else here needs to be upgraded to forum version 2.0 before we try another addition. = /


wait I don't get it, was sepp's vote a yes or a no? :thinking:

Yes to the suggested reputation mod, no to the inbuilt karma system I explain to Iced.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 09, 2008, 11:32:56 pm
Think about it this way, most people would use the karmic system to either praise someone they like "oh always great feedback as usual!"

yes.

Quote
or to berate someone they dislike dont know "Useless feedback/ taste/ideas"

can't give negative rep.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on April 09, 2008, 11:42:19 pm
vReportBoard Mod
vPostBoxResize Mod      trivial
vMulticolor-Stars Mod      done
vMoveTopic Notify by PM   trivial
vMessageIcon Filters
Googlebot & Spiders Mod      not sure
GeSHiSmf         trivial
Spoiler Tag         trivial
cbi            trivial
SMFChess         ugh.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Messatsu on April 15, 2008, 02:59:32 am
You always have the option to write negative comments, but I think that would be few and far between.  It's much more useful to have a comment than the only-for-play karma systems out there.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Sepp on March 02, 2010, 07:03:14 pm
I propose a longer discussion about any sort of reputation vote system on users or posts by user before going live with it.

From the collection of ideas for the request section in 2007:

  • Messatsu: How about a karma when you send someone something.  You start with so much and can't post anymore if you don't answer a request?

    [My comment] Absolutely not. The karma system inbuilt in SMF is fundamentally flawed and you could probalby do some interesting things with karma (Loona posted some suggestions as well), but it would all have to be sophistically modded and that's just the technical side... no no no.
And the rest is in this topic from 2008. I haven't re-read all posts yet.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Sepp on March 02, 2010, 07:28:00 pm
The currently activated modification is Good Post/Bad Post (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1890).

I am completely against this system just by reading its description: It gives members and moderators a general idea of who's a worthy poster and who isn't.

Uh-yeah...


If anything, I say we should look into Advanced Reputation System (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=230676.0) again that was already brought up by Val here.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 02, 2010, 11:26:43 pm
aw let's give this one a shot at least. :P but yeah should have been discussed more, sorry.

I thought about the reputation mod as well, but I figured a +1/-1 with comment to each post is kinda too complicated, isn't it?

anyways it's not much work adding and ditching existing mods, and this kinda thing won't break anything overnight, so~ we do have some leeway to experiment :)

\\ edit

going through this thread, the advanced reputation mod does seem like the better option :thinking:
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Iced on March 02, 2010, 11:44:22 pm
lmao, someone went through titiln post story and minused voted him in over thirty random posts.

We should have a reputation log to show who was downgrading who.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 02, 2010, 11:49:04 pm
haha yeah, shoshingo :)
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: TempesT on March 03, 2010, 12:10:59 am
Is there also a way to view which of your posts are upvoted/downvoted without checking each individual one? Might encourage some people to continue posting a certain way, and conversely discourage shoddy posting styles and bad attitudes in general. I trust the userbase for the most part, so I don't think it'll get abused, it's a scenario, but definitely not the only one.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 03, 2010, 12:18:20 am
unfortunately not. not with this mod anyways :sadgoi:
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: TempesT on March 03, 2010, 12:20:19 am
Must say I'm partially against it for that reason then, otherwise I don't mind it at all. I enjoy the theme of change in general :D
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 03, 2010, 12:28:20 am
the other mod has that :yesgoi:
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Shamrock on March 03, 2010, 01:36:17 am
I find the Karma thing useless. All of those mods are worthless. Just like our contributor star is useless.

So I don't see anything wrong with them, I just wouldn't personally ever use it.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Palette Jesus on March 03, 2010, 02:10:55 pm
Reputation system, from my knowledge and experience, doesn't really affect anything. People might say," +1," a bit more often, and someone might make a thread saying, 'Give me karma," but I can't see it having a super negative, or super positive effect.

If it's going to come with functions that enable us to see who posts are liked the most... etc, then maybe it could have some sort of statistically positive affect; allowing use to see if people prefer what type of posts or something. Other than that, I'm indifferent, and probably won't be using it to plus or minus one anyway. :P
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Sepp on March 04, 2010, 07:48:06 pm
No, the opposite: this can be huge.

There are over 50 posts (not counting ours here) in the Feedback area alone about this from the last two days.

Marcus Aurelius said:
It never ceases to amaze me: we all love ourselves more than other people, but care more about their opinion than our own. If a god appeared to us -- or a wise human being, even -- and prohibited us from concealing our thoughts or imagining anything without immediately shouting it out, we wouldn't make it through a single day. That's how much we value other people's opinions -- instead of our own.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: TempesT on March 04, 2010, 07:54:28 pm
There are many more members than 50. And most of those posts are "what is going on how does this work?" On that note though, I can't seem to see my respect anymore, so either the visibility was cut out more, or the mod was just removed so.. shrug
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Shamrock on March 04, 2010, 08:00:00 pm
Marcus Aurelius said:
It never ceases to amaze me: we all love ourselves more than other people, but care more about their opinion than our own. If a god appeared to us -- or a wise human being, even -- and prohibited us from concealing our thoughts or imagining anything without immediately shouting it out, we wouldn't make it through a single day. That's how much we value other people's opinions -- instead of our own.

I guess you never heard the American take on opinions.

"Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has got one and they are all full of shit."

Also, Marcus Aurelius reminded me of Ben Franklin. Both had great quotes, had great ideas, and gave great advise, yet historically neither followed their own teachings.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 05, 2010, 01:14:42 am
installed the reputation system thing and gave gmods the permissions. it's post-bound, with reason, weighted rep, and adds those bars.

thoughts:
- allow negative?
- enable on every forum?
- keep the bars? maybe make stars rep instead of postcount based?
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Tony 3rd on March 05, 2010, 01:41:51 am
- allow negative?
Not if you are concerned about trolls.


- enable on every forum?

I don't see why not.

- keep the bars? maybe make stars rep instead of postcount based?

do it. didn't we wanted to take off the power postcount had at some point?
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 05, 2010, 02:05:25 am
- allow negative?
Not if you are concerned about trolls.

agreed.

there are also some very interesting options:
- reps per day
- minimum number of reputations given between the same person
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: TempesT on March 05, 2010, 03:41:27 am
Stars rep might be a bit too visual for those that like to remind everyone how awesome they are. The profile view is better on that end, and only allowed +rep is definitely a great counter action to negative abuse. There are always ways to regulate it seems :)
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 06, 2010, 02:52:09 am
no comments? oh well.

enabled for everyone, options:
- 1 rep per post
- gave everyone 300+postcount/20 as initial rep
- 3 rep per thread
- wait 1 time for giving rep
- max. 3 reps/day
- give rep to 5 people before repeating a person
- reputation "power" (I think that's how much rep you give) is 1 for every 100 points you have
- enabled option to hide one's rep from public

So posting does help increase one's rep, but getting a +1 from someone does tons more (+8 in my case, and those numbers are going to go up), still thinking this might be an alternative to base number of goldstars on
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Cyanide on March 06, 2010, 03:32:51 am
So, the fact that i can't give rep to anybody means what?

"An error has occured, you are not allowed to modify reputation"
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Valodim on March 06, 2010, 03:36:24 am
Huh? That's weird, should work for you. You do have the permission.

\\ edit

Cyanide: found the mistake and fixed it. I think.

\\\ edit

where did the 300 come from? changed to postcount/20 :P
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: TempesT on March 08, 2010, 12:09:33 am
As far as posting increasing rep, that is the only thing I am against as far as the settings. There I commented now stop complaining >:{
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Sepp on March 12, 2010, 07:22:27 pm
Agreed.

I would suggest to
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: Cyanide on March 14, 2010, 05:18:00 am
Dunno, the comment on posts thing is OK. Having the reputation attached is silly though.

Problem is, you wouldn't be able to police comments on posts and it could be a method of being a dick to people.
Title: Re: reputation system?
Post by: TempesT on March 14, 2010, 10:06:12 pm
More hypothetical situations~