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What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +? (Read 3017 times)

Started by NEONSHADOWF13, June 13, 2018, 03:51:20 am
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What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#1  June 13, 2018, 03:51:20 am
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I keep hearing of Ikemen and Ikemen +. Can anyone tell me what exactly these are? From some sources, they sound like what I’m looking for. Ikemen is listed as “New BSD License” on its Google Code page and people call it an “open source Mugen Clone.” Yet, when reading about Ikemen +, I read the fallowing.

Flowrellik said, 6 months ago
well at least this is a plus to know.
On the off hand, do you happen to know how to modify mugen's select screen code so it can have that "IKEMEN Revolving character select"?

Man you know he cant do that without the source code

Yes, what he's working on is putting MUGEN into IKEMEN, MUGEN can't be worked on unless the creators work on it themselves or they release the source code.

Source = http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/ikemen-plus-181972.0.html

So, what is Ikemen +? Is it a ‘wrapper’ for Mugen that allows Mugen to play online? Or, is Ikemen + a truly open source implementation of the Mugen engine?

Maybe I just got confused reading about it in that thread. Can someone please clarify for me what these two projects are? Thank you in advance for your time.
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#2  June 13, 2018, 06:09:27 am
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What exactly are you looking for?
Are you the guy who want to make that Mugen port to the nintendo switch console?

Pay close attention to these faq's:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Shorts answers:

1.-Mugen is a closed source engine made by elecbyte.
2.-Ikemen is an open source engine with online capabilities which can read mugen things by reverse engineering made by suehiro's own languaje code SSZ, C++ and Lua.
3.-Ikemen Go is the same engine by the same author suehiro but an incomplete port using goolang languaje for main code and Lua languaje for scripting.
4.-Ikemen Plus and Ikemen Go Plus are "unnoficial" expansions made by interested community to add more capabilities on the Ikemen engines using primarily the implemented Lua script language capabilities and some additions to the source code while suehiro updates his "originals" repositories. 
There is no knowledge that is not power
Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 06:21:38 am by MangeX
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#3  June 13, 2018, 07:38:15 am
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What exactly are you looking for?
Are you the guy who want to make that Mugen port to the nintendo switch console?

Pay close attention to these faq's:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Shorts answers:

1.-Mugen is a closed source engine made by elecbyte.
2.-Ikemen is an open source engine with online capabilities which can read mugen things by reverse engineering made by suehiro's own languaje code SSZ, C++ and Lua.
3.-Ikemen Go is the same engine by the same author suehiro but an incomplete port using goolang languaje for main code and Lua languaje for scripting.
4.-Ikemen Plus and Ikemen Go Plus are "unnoficial" expansions made by interested community to add more capabilities on the Ikemen engines using primarily the implemented Lua script language capabilities and some additions to the source code while suehiro updates his "originals" repositories. 

Thank you very much for your help. I will explain more and I have some more questions.

No, I am not the guy that wants to port to Nintendo Switch.

I am someone who fell in love with playing Mugen because of how random and amazing the community creations for the characters and stages are, but much prefer Free Software (open source) as it allows the community to expand the engines of games and not just replace resources; by giving them full freedom to modify the code. I love the openness and community approach that this philosophy fosters for game engines. I've seen amazing things done to DOOM, for instance, sense its source release. While I do not program myself, I have marveled at the talented things a programming community can accomplish when they work hard and have access to the source code. I benefit from playing these refined projects.

I have been in and out of using Mugen sense around 2007; hoping for about eleven years now that either someone would reimplement Mugen under and release their source or that the original would release its source. I tried Pain Town's Mugen implementation, but it crashes on almost every character I try to add to it. It's the lack of openness to Mugen's code that drove me to drop the game for years at a time due to frustrations at realizing that while new content would keep coming the engine itself would develop at a snail's pace because Elecbyte takes years off at a time and the closed nature of the project prevents a community from truly forming around advancing the engine itself.

Ikemen Plus seemed almost too good to be true because character compatibility is so amazing compared with what I've seen in other open implementations. That's why I wanted to clarify to make sure I was really seeing what I was seeing and understanding it correctly.

I am so happy to see that this is what I have been looking for. I am also happy to finally see online play added. My Dad lives states away and aside from visits we can only play games together online. So, I will try to set him up with Ikemen Plus.

Also, as a further question, are there any current plans to, or would there be any major obstacles to, bringing Ikemen Plus to GNU/Linux? Preferably as an easy to install .deb package. If that's not in the cards right now, does anyone know if it will run in Wine? I might try to test that out myself later.

Is there any sort of way to financially contribute to the developers of Ikemen Plus so that they can dedicate more time to advancing the project? I know some open projects have this while others are considered more of a hobby and donations wouldn't really speed things up. I've actually been told that from people at one open project I wanted to donate to.

I love 2D Fighting Games and there is an endless wealth of content to be enjoyed. I recently got a set of Fight Sticks and have been enjoying a classic arcade experience with Ikemen Plus.

Thank you again for your time.

Think I just answered one of my own questions going through the links you provided. You are very informative and helpful.

"Ikemen GO is already small, open source, multi platform (can be compiled for windows, linux and mac os) and uses a single programming language (lua is used as a scripting language for interface creation, those files, like mugen content, are not part of the source code)."

Though, this raises another question. Where do I get Ikemen Go from? I just Googled it and nothing came up as a download, that I understand anyway. Do you have a link to that?
Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 07:44:00 am by NEONSHADOWF13
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#4  June 13, 2018, 09:28:05 am
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I have been in and out of using Mugen sense around 2007; hoping for about eleven years now that either someone would reimplement Mugen under and release their source or that the original would release its source. I tried Pain Town's Mugen implementation, but it crashes on almost every character I try to add to it. It's the lack of openness to Mugen's code that drove me to drop the game for years at a time due to frustrations at realizing that while new content would keep coming the engine itself would develop at a snail's pace because Elecbyte takes years off at a time and the closed nature of the project prevents a community from truly forming around advancing the engine itself.

Apart from paintown you should take a look at this other project, it is called Dolmexica Infinite engine and it is another open mugen interpreter, only that its primary objective is the sega dreamcast console, although it also has windows and web browsers versions.

Ikemen Plus seemed almost too good to be true because character compatibility is so amazing compared with what I've seen in other open implementations. That's why I wanted to clarify to make sure I was really seeing what I was seeing and understanding it correctly.

I am so happy to see that this is what I have been looking for. I am also happy to finally see online play added. My Dad lives states away and aside from visits we can only play games together online. So, I will try to set him up with Ikemen Plus.

Also, as a further question, are there any current plans to, or would there be any major obstacles to, bringing Ikemen Plus to GNU/Linux? Preferably as an easy to install .deb package. If that's not in the cards right now, does anyone know if it will run in Wine? I might try to test that out myself later.

In the questions and answers put before, there are all the repositories for all the versions and everything necessary to know how it works. In addition you can view the ikemen plus tread that you had linked earlier.

I love 2D Fighting Games and there is an endless wealth of content to be enjoyed. I recently got a set of Fight Sticks and have been enjoying a classic arcade experience with Ikemen Plus.

Thank you again for your time.

Think I just answered one of my own questions going through the links you provided. You are very informative and helpful.

"Ikemen GO is already small, open source, multi platform (can be compiled for windows, linux and mac os) and uses a single programming language (lua is used as a scripting language for interface creation, those files, like mugen content, are not part of the source code)."

Though, this raises another question. Where do I get Ikemen Go from? I just Googled it and nothing came up as a download, that I understand anyway. Do you have a link to that?

This is the current Ikemen Go Plus Github fork repository with all the files and source code, the only missing things there are the compiled executables but take this mediafire link which has everything already compiled for windows from that repository, only decompress and test (remember, is uncomplete yet, it lacks sdl and many features).

Is there any sort of way to financially contribute to the developers of Ikemen Plus so that they can dedicate more time to advancing the project? I know some open projects have this while others are considered more of a hobby and donations wouldn't really speed things up. I've actually been told that from people at one open project I wanted to donate to.

Frankly I would not know how to answer that question
There is no knowledge that is not power
Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:09:46 am by MangeX
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#5  June 13, 2018, 05:43:34 pm
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I have been in and out of using Mugen sense around 2007; hoping for about eleven years now that either someone would reimplement Mugen under and release their source or that the original would release its source. I tried Pain Town's Mugen implementation, but it crashes on almost every character I try to add to it. It's the lack of openness to Mugen's code that drove me to drop the game for years at a time due to frustrations at realizing that while new content would keep coming the engine itself would develop at a snail's pace because Elecbyte takes years off at a time and the closed nature of the project prevents a community from truly forming around advancing the engine itself.

Apart from paintown you should take a look at this other project, it is called Dolmexica Infinite engine and it is another open mugen interpreter, only that its primary objective is the sega dreamcast console, although it also has windows and web browsers versions.

Ikemen Plus seemed almost too good to be true because character compatibility is so amazing compared with what I've seen in other open implementations. That's why I wanted to clarify to make sure I was really seeing what I was seeing and understanding it correctly.

I am so happy to see that this is what I have been looking for. I am also happy to finally see online play added. My Dad lives states away and aside from visits we can only play games together online. So, I will try to set him up with Ikemen Plus.

Also, as a further question, are there any current plans to, or would there be any major obstacles to, bringing Ikemen Plus to GNU/Linux? Preferably as an easy to install .deb package. If that's not in the cards right now, does anyone know if it will run in Wine? I might try to test that out myself later.

In the questions and answers put before, there are all the repositories for all the versions and everything necessary to know how it works. In addition you can view the ikemen plus tread that you had linked earlier.

I love 2D Fighting Games and there is an endless wealth of content to be enjoyed. I recently got a set of Fight Sticks and have been enjoying a classic arcade experience with Ikemen Plus.

Thank you again for your time.

Think I just answered one of my own questions going through the links you provided. You are very informative and helpful.

"Ikemen GO is already small, open source, multi platform (can be compiled for windows, linux and mac os) and uses a single programming language (lua is used as a scripting language for interface creation, those files, like mugen content, are not part of the source code)."

Though, this raises another question. Where do I get Ikemen Go from? I just Googled it and nothing came up as a download, that I understand anyway. Do you have a link to that?

This is the current Ikemen Go Plus Github fork repository with all the files and source code, the only missing things there are the compiled executables but take this mediafire link which has everything already compiled for windows from that repository, only decompress and test (remember, is uncomplete yet, it lacks sdl and many features).

Is there any sort of way to financially contribute to the developers of Ikemen Plus so that they can dedicate more time to advancing the project? I know some open projects have this while others are considered more of a hobby and donations wouldn't really speed things up. I've actually been told that from people at one open project I wanted to donate to.

Frankly I would not know how to answer that question

Thank you very much. You have been very helpful.
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#6  June 14, 2018, 08:39:24 am
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"Ikemen GO is already small, open source, multi platform (can be compiled for windows, linux and mac os) and uses a single programming language (lua is used as a scripting language for interface creation, those files, like mugen content, are not part of the source code)."


I have been playing with the Ikemen Plus Go that you linked me to and it's been very nice. But, I have two more questions.

First, I can not seem to get my Fight Stick to work with it. It has listings in the input options menu for game pads. I mapped the buttons in the same configuration that I used for Ikemen Plus. But, they actions buttons and joystick simply do not respond. I'm currently using a joystick to keyboard mapping program as a work around. Is this part of the incomplete nature that you mentioned? Is joystick support part of SDL not yet being implemented into Ikemen Plus Go? If so, is this something to look forward to in the near future or the far future?

Second, what is the license to Ikemen Go Plus? For that matter, what is the licence to all of the Ikemen releases? The best I can tell is that the original Ikemen is "New BSD License." I'm still not 100% sure of that, but that's what it looks like on its Google Code Archive. But, I can't really seem to find any specifics for Ikemen Plus or Ikemen Go Plus. Sense BSD is not a copyleft license, I am unsure if derivative works automatically fall under it in the same way that software licensed under the GNU GPL does. Usually there is a text document in the source code in the repositories that says "GPL" or "MIT" or just plain "License" or sometimes it's even buried in the "Readme" file. I don't see any such document at all in either the Ikemen Plus or the Ikemen Go Plus repositories. So, I have no idea what license those two software are under. My best guess is maybe BSD? But, I'm not even sure BSD requires that being not copyleft.

It's difficult to ascertain anything from the original repositories as they are in Japanese. Are people even really sure what license Hiroshi put his software under? I read this in the link you posted.

    12.- commercial use, fair use, hobby use?

All packages used by Ikemen GO are under MIT or BSD 3 License, so I don't think they prohibit commercial use. Ikemen itself is unknown. I didn't find any license for ikemen within its files. You would need to ask Ikemen author.

So, from what I'm gathering, the various versions of Ikemen are licensed as:

Option 1: MIT

or

Option 2: New BSD / BSD 3

or

Option 3: Without a license and people just assumed it's "open source" because they can't read Japanese any better than I can and just stuck whatever license they felt was correct on it when they made their English upload / fork of the project.

I'm almost guessing Option 3 because so many of the projects simply don't have a license document present in their source code on their repositories and no one seems to have a clear / straight answer to what the license for the software is when asked. This makes me concerned over commercial viability of the engine, the legality of the forks of the engine, and its status as Free Software (Libre Software) as defined by the Free Software Foundation (FSF.) They have a list of approved license and what licenses are compatible with other licenses that they approve. But, that seems impossible to compare and validate with Ikemen because its seems like no one knows what license its under and its forks often don't list a license at all.

I've never seen a software package be under three different licensing states (MIT, BSD, nobody really knows.) Sense the two listed are not copyleft, is it possible for people to strip the original license and simply apply their own upon making a fork? I never see this with the GPL because they have to use the GPL for all forks of GPL software. So, maybe this is normal to see so many licenses for not copy left software?

It all just seems like a giant mess to me for what should be a simple one word answer to a simple legal question. What license are the Ikemen Projects under? I would expect, typically, one answer. Unless Go was released as a different license. Then I would expect two answers.

Not angry at you specifically or anything. You've been very helpful. But, I am getting frustrated and confused at trying to figure out what license the many variations of Ikemen are under. I really don't want to get to used to using it or too emotionally attached to it to only find out later that there are legal monkey wrenches in it that half the people building on it didn't even know existed.

I mean, what happens if the original author didn't intend it for commercial use and someone tries that and he decides to sue? From my understanding, at least in US copyright law, all released content is proprietary under the author, even if no copyright notice is given, unless the author specifically says otherwise. So, just because he released the source code doesn't really make it "open source" in the way most people think of Free Software (Libre Software) unless he specifically says so. He might be open to people forking it, does anyone even know if he is? Maybe he just wanted to show off his code? Without any official license he could really come back and claim any rights he wants to it and he'd be in the legal right because he would have proprietary ownership of it because completely regardless of putting the source code out there he doesn't seem to have actually given any permission for anyone to do anything with it. It seems like everyone just assumed it was ok to do so because they couldn't reach Japanese, and here's the source code, so it's 'probably what his intend was.'

Maybe that's a bit cynical, but after 19 years of Elecbye sitting on Mugen as proprietary I want the Free Software re-implementation of Mugen to have its license spelled out in writing so that it's clear and legal for everyone to know. And, that doesn't seem to be the case at all with Ikemen. It seems like a flurry of licenses and no one knowing what license the original author put it under, if any. And, if none, all rights would legally default back to him as proprietary should he choose to sue over anything. If my understanding is correct of software licenses and copyright law. Which, I admit, is not perfect. But, this is what I've gleaned by trying to look into the subject and by trying to read and listen to Richard Stallman speak about the subject and why the GPL matters.
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#7  June 14, 2018, 10:34:26 am
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I have been playing with the Ikemen Plus Go that you linked me to and it's been very nice. But, I have two more questions.

First, I can not seem to get my Fight Stick to work with it. It has listings in the input options menu for game pads. I mapped the buttons in the same configuration that I used for Ikemen Plus. But, they actions buttons and joystick simply do not respond. I'm currently using a joystick to keyboard mapping program as a work around. Is this part of the incomplete nature that you mentioned? Is joystick support part of SDL not yet being implemented into Ikemen Plus Go? If so, is this something to look forward to in the near future or the far future?

This has a response for your question, again in the ikemen plus tread.
Has features implemented but not already uploaded in the github.
http://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.2406196

A little update on the Go build front. The project was on hiatus for the last 3 months but recently I've started messing with it again. Here are recently implemented features:

- proper joypad support (and a way to configure it in options, detecting buttons pressed and axis)
- tons of polishing when it comes to input configuration
- 4-player local multiplayer (each player can use different controller or the same keyboard etc. all adjustable in options). "Team Co-op" mode now supports both Simul and Turns team mode and have adjustable amount of players on P1 side (this way P3 and P4 players can join the game). In future I'm planning to add "Versus Co-op" mode (not existing in mugen) where something like 2vs2 team matches will be possible where all characters are controlled by different players
- "Here comes a new challenger" feature known from arcades (when P2, P3 or P4 presses start during arcade mode current playthrough is temporary halted and you fight the player. Winner continues arcade in the place it stopped)
- "Demo mode" screenpack section (automatically started short demo match when you don't press anything in main menu) is now supported

localcoord for screenpacks is really close. Current wip build already supports 640x480 (tested on brokenMugen for mugen 1.0 and MUGEN Fighting Jam screenpack for mugen 1.0) and other 4:3 localcoord resolutions, just need to figure out how to prevent screen stretching on 16:9 resolutions.

Next step on the roadmap will be fntv2 support (with this all popular mugen 1.1 screenpacks should work with ikemen go plus).

Second, what is the license to Ikemen Go Plus? For that matter, what is the licence to all of the Ikemen releases? The best I can tell is that the original Ikemen is "New BSD License." I'm still not 100% sure of that, but that's what it looks like on its Google Code Archive. But, I can't really seem to find any specifics for Ikemen Plus or Ikemen Go Plus. Sense BSD is not a copyleft license, I am unsure if derivative works automatically fall under it in the same way that software licensed under the GNU GPL does. Usually there is a text document in the source code in the repositories that says "GPL" or "MIT" or just plain "License" or sometimes it's even buried in the "Readme" file. I don't see any such document at all in either the Ikemen Plus or the Ikemen Go Plus repositories. So, I have no idea what license those two software are under. My best guess is maybe BSD? But, I'm not even sure BSD requires that being not copyleft.

In this old tread are a list for at that date mugen engine clones with links to their sources if still available.
Ikemen is the only active to this date and the small interview made on that time listed the engine as public domain ,despite the various licences used as a mere requirement to publish the code on its repositories.
http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/the-future-new-fighting-engines-mugencompatible-98981.0.html

- Open Source - IKEMEN: ACTIVE (last update/news: 3 Mar 2010)
HOMEPAGE: Ikemen Official Homepage
FORUM: Ikemen Official Forum
INFO: (22 May 2009)
1) Mugen compatiblity - This is compatible with about chars, stages and lifebars.
2) Current status? - I am developing.
3) % done? - I just want to fix bugs.
4) Open Source? - Ikemen is Public domain.
5) plans/features/platform? - I have no future plans. Ikemen is a windows-only.
6) Cooperate/merge with other projects? - If I am asked to cooperate.
7) Official Forum? - Only this board. This board can be linked.
8 )C++ runtimes required
COMPATIBILITY: Windows

I would recommend you to investigate and search more thoroughly of what can be seen at a glance, or if you have any questions, contact the original authors.
Most, as in this case ikemen are made by and for fans without any kind of profit, but the least would be to create a new engine based on these with a purely economic purpose.
Although it is unlikely, it has not been done in all these years and if it is done, it will only be for purely original projects and respecting the opening of the code so that everyone can continue learning.
There is no knowledge that is not power

;x

Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#8  June 14, 2018, 06:42:13 pm
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Neon, I just want to say, it’s cool to see you so enthusiastic about this. How did you discover it? Been really pulling strings to expose more people to this. Oan, anytime I see that player 2 can press start during arcade gives me chills. MangeX are you learning as you go? You kinda came out of nowhere with the knowledge, I’m looking into things myself that I may implement at my own leisure. A lot of good information here though that may hopefully help others on the fence.
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#9  June 15, 2018, 02:37:52 am
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I would recommend you to investigate and search more thoroughly of what can be seen at a glance, or if you have any questions, contact the original authors.
Most, as in this case ikemen are made by and for fans without any kind of profit, but the least would be to create a new engine based on these with a purely economic purpose.
Although it is unlikely, it has not been done in all these years and if it is done, it will only be for purely original projects and respecting the opening of the code so that everyone can continue learning.

Thank you again for all of your help. You do have a lot of information that is really helpful. I will respond to ;x below, but it might also explain why I've had so many questions for you so you might find it interesting as well.

Neon, I just want to say, it’s cool to see you so enthusiastic about this. How did you discover it? Been really pulling strings to expose more people to this. Oan, anytime I see that player 2 can press start during arcade gives me chills. MangeX are you learning as you go? You kinda came out of nowhere with the knowledge, I’m looking into things myself that I may implement at my own leisure. A lot of good information here though that may hopefully help others on the fence.

So, this is my story of how I got here and why I'm so interested. It was around 2006/2007 that I was in my last year of high school and going into college. It was around this time that I became strongly fascinated by Free Software (also sometimes called Libre Software) as defined by the Free Software Foundation that was founded by Richard Stallman. As a personal project for myself at that time, I wanted to read as many of Richard Stallman's essays and watch as many of his presentations as I could to do my best to completely absorb his teachings and understand what he had to say.

I found the idea of people working together as a community around software projects to be a powerful idea. It was this idea that lead to the colobartion to create the GNU+Linux Operating System. I was teaching myself the GNU+Linux Operating System at that time. How to make a bootable disc, how to install it, how to set it up how I liked it, and how to find replacement programs for the proprietary ones that I was still using with Windows (such as a new office suit, a new pixel based graphic editor, a new media player, a new web browser, and new computer games to play.) It was an entirely new world to me. One driven by collaboration and capable of producing amazing pieces of software. GZDOOM, for instance, massively updated the original DOOM engine after ID Software released it under the GNU GPL License in the late 1990's.

I understood then, that even though I did not know how to program myself, I could massively benefit from those that could because they could update software (such as computer game engines) to add new features and continue to evolve projects. The updates to the DOOM engine made the game far more enjoyable to me.

It was also around this time (2007/2008) that I discovered MUGEN while going back and forth between trying things on GNU+Linux and Windows. MUGEN was amazing to me when I first found it. I had grown up playing 2D Fighting games. I loved Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter 2. I was becoming disheartened by the modern 3D fighters and the ability to go back to the original 2D style and put in any character I wanted was awesome to me.

It was around this time that I had hoped that Midway could be convinced to license Mortal Kombat Trilogy under the GNU GPL. The game was old, hard to get working on modern computers, had old graphics that were much smaller in resolution that the Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 arcade game that it derived from, and Midway was going bankrupt anyway so why not ask? That dream quickly died once Warner purchased Midway.

This lead me to researching Mortal Kombat Trilogy and any way that it could be updated and modernized. Was it possible to get the UMK3 arcade ROM and edit in characters from MK1 and MK2 from the arcade versions? Someone did exactly that with UMK3 for Sega. So, maybe there was hope. There were all the old versions of the characters from MK1 and MK2 that did not exist in MKT. But, I soon discovered MUGEN through this research.

The Mortal Kombat Project was an edit of MUGEN that made it play like the 2D Mortal Kombat games. I had seen MUGEN in passing in videos of Homer Simpson fighting people and stuff. It looked zany and cool, but I wasn't sure of its capabilities back then. When I saw the whole of MKT recreated in MUGEN with arcade perfect graphics and all the old characters from MK1 and MK2 added in as well; I realized that MUGEN was a powerful engine that could indeed satisfy my thirst for 2D fighting game action on the PC.

Yet, I hit a road block. MUGEN was proprietary software, philosophically at odds with Free Software, Richard Stallman, and GNU+Linux; all the things I had dedicated so much time into learning at that point. Even still, to this day, I basically only use Windows for gaming. And, the reason for that, is that it's difficult to find a Free Software Licensed graphic card driver for anything other than Intel Integrated graphic chips. I use essentially all Free Software programs on top of Windows for my actual applications and if I can find a game to play on GNU+Linux I am poised to delete Windows entirely and migrate over to GNU+Linux entirely.

That said, MUGEN, to me at least, looked like more of a burden to its community than a blessing to it. People rallied around it because it was first to market with a customizable 2D fighting game engine. If it wasn't the first, it was definitely the first one people cared about and actually made content for. In fact, they made a lot of content. An endless stream of content. The community essentially treated developing for MUGEN as if MUGEN was a Free Software project, even though it wasn't. It was proprietary. But, the spirit of the community was and is about collaboration, editing, working together, updating, and sharing.

It pained me greatly to see this vibrant community that has worked so hard to make so much amazing content still tied to MUGEN like an albatross around its neck. We're nearing Mugen's nineteenth anniversary and it is still propitiatory and it is still stalled in development.

And so, it has been my great hope over these many years that MUGEN would either finally be released under a Free Software License, or that the community would evolve beyond MUGEN (as the title of this thread section on the board suggests) and re-implement MUGEN in a new engine built from the ground up and that this engine would be licensed as Free Software and be released to the public and people would switch over to using it.

So, to answer your questions, this is why I am so passionate about IKEMEN. It is also how I found out about it. Every year or so I would delve back into the MUGEN community and see if any real progress has been made along these lines. Paintown tried, but character compatibility isn't there. Almost every character I try, even simple ones that should work, cause the game to error out. I saw a Java versions, but it didn't seem very advanced and to be honest I'm not sure Java is really the best language to use for a fighting game engine.

IKEMEN was the first project that I saw that had amazing character compatibility. It was also the first project that I saw that had online play support, something I had been wanting for years. My Dad and I live states away after the divorce and we play fighting games when I go to visit. I'll be going to visit soon, actually. It is my hope to set him up with IKEMEN when I do so that we can play together over the Internet.

This is also why the licensing situation with IKEMEN and its variants is so frustrating for me. I'd like to try to promote it as Free Software (often called Open Source but there is a difference in philosophy that fallows whether you call it "Free Software" or "Open Source" and many articles have been written on this topic.)

But, I'm not entirely sure that I can. The licensing situation here is very confusing to me, even still. So far, IKEMEN and its variations are either A: MIT, B: BSD 3, C: Public Domain, or D: kind of still a mystery. Can I suggest to a fully Free Software GNU+Linux operating system like Trisquel or Parabola that they include IKEMEN and or its variations in its repositories? I don't know, because I still don't really know what it's license is.

Having source code be available is enough to be "Open Source" but it's not enough to be "Free Software." For instance, Aliens VS Predator for the PC from the late 1990's has its source code available. But, because its license says that it can not be used for commercial use, this makes it not "Free Software," even though it is "Open Source." An identical problem plagued MAME for many years. MAME could not be endorsed by the FSF (Free Software Foundation) or placed into the repositories of any operating system that adheres to its guidelines because MAME used to forbid commercial use. Systems that did not fallow these guidelines (such as Ubunutu) included it. But, that's because Ubuntu never prioritized the philosophy of Free Software. As such, Ubuntu contains many proprietary projects as well as projects that are "Open Source" but not freedom respecting enough to be "Free Software."

"Free Software" sees itself as a "human rights" philosophy focused on the concerns of the users of software. So, the question is, what rights (as in human rights) should users of software have to truly have liberty with the software that they use? Whereas "Open Source" is a "software development" philosophy that sees allowing people to see the source code of software as a more efficient way to develop software. "Open Source" doesn't view the situation as a "human rights" situation. Instead, "Open Source" views the situation as a "software development" situation. Because of this, I have long gravitated to "Free Software" instead of "Open Source."

As you can imagine, there is a lot of overlap. Though, as with the examples I provided, there is not always overlap. Free Software was first and Open Source fallowed. The true history is that Open Source was a term coined by people who split off from the Free Software movement to talk about what at that time was the same body of software but didn't want to talk about it as a "human rights" issue and instead wanted to focus on it as a "software development" advantage. It turns out that trying to sell corporations on the idea of using "Free Software" is difficult because so many corporations don't really care about the freedom of their users and instead see their users in terms of dollar signs only. As such, these people kept running into a roadblock in getting Free Software adopted into the corporate world. So, they coined the term Open Source to sell corporations on using Free Software. It allowed them to talk about the advantages of everyone being able to see, study, and enhance the source code; without having to talk about the subject of "human rights" and freedom to corporate executives who would view such talk as "Hippie Talk" and steer clear of that in a heartbeat. As time went on, "Open Source" went on to cover software that would not be covered as "Free Software." Such as Aliens VS Predator. You have the source code, you can modify it, so clearly it's "Open Source." But, sense it can't be used commercially, it's not "Free Software."

MAME actually went through great pains a few years ago to finally convert over to the GNU GPL and be "Free Software." It had to get permission from every single person who ever contributed code to it. Many people outright refused to go to the new licence. So, their code had to be dropped and or re-writen to make MAME able to be licensed under the GNU GPL. It took MAME several years to do this.

This, specifically, is why I have so many questions about the license of IKEMEN and its many variations. Is IKEMEN "Free Software" or just "Open Source?" I'm looking for a "Free Software" MUGEN re-implementation. Not just an "Open Source" one. I, personally, don't want to invest the time in trying to promote IKEMEN around the Free Software community to only find out that time is wasted because they can't really include or promote it themselves because its just "Open Source" but is not clearly licensed under a Free Software Foundation approved license. I also don't want to invest myself emotionally into thinking and feeling that after all these years I've finally found what I am looking for, only to realize that no, I didn't. The source is "open source" but that's it, it's not "Free Software."

Fighting games, especially 2D Fighting Games, are my favorite genre of computerized gaming. I am very passionate about them and the idea of having a Free Software fighting game engine that can go online and has amazing compatibility with MUGEN content is amazing to me. It's very tempting. But, as it stands, I'm restricting myself to "sitting on the fence" with it until I can get a clear answer to the licensing situation.

I know a little Japanese from high school. It might just be worth it to try to contact the original author and just straight up ask him. But, I'm not very fluent in Japanese and my broken Japanese may not be good enough to properly ask the question of what license IKEMEN is under or to even fully understand what answer he may give back.

That seems to be the root of the problem here. The original code is written by someone who speaks Japanese and apparently either no one working on the variations speaks Japanese fluently enough to ask the original author or no one has really thought about asking before now.

It just seems like the code just appeared one day, and everyone was so happy to see it and be able to to see what the program can do and work with the code that no one has (or could) ask what the license to the original code is. So, it seems everyone kind of just ignored the licensing issue, turned a blind eye to the matter, and used "various licences ... as a mere requirement to publish the code on its repositories." regardless as to whether or not that was the proper and 100% legal thing to do.

This is what I was suspecting happened, because I don't remember hardly ever seeing in my life such a mess when it comes to licensing. Usually the original code is placed under a license, and everyone else just uses that same license for derivative works; such as the GNU GPL. Almost never have I seen so many derivative works go under so many different licenses or simply no license at all being listed. That's why I began to suspect that no one really knows what license the original code is under and everyone either just chose the license they felt fit the code as "a mere requirement to publish the code on its repositories" or simply used the code in their repositories without listing any license at all.

While this works well and dandy enough for "hobby programing" I can see a litany of potential pitfalls for any future of this project outside of hobby programming because if the original author ever sees his code used in any way he doesn't specifically approve of (in his original engines or any derivatives that uses his code) he could in all legal right sue and or send out cease and desist orders. Unlikely, but entirely possible. Also, trying to get GNU+Linux distributions that adhere to the FSF guidelines to include the engines will be difficult because their true licenses can't be verified because the licenses used were only used as "a mere requirement to publish the code on its repositories" and as such aren't really going to be seen as being able to hold any legal water if no one can prove that the original code that all of the derivatives derive from is licensed in such a way that allows for this kind of use; because no one can prove what the original licenses of the original code for these engines actually are. This would also make any type of commercial use also impossible because who would want to use these engines in a commercial way with such a clear risk coming from the complete ambiguity of the licensing situation?

Free Software must provide the fallowing four freedoms.

The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).

The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1).
Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others (freedom 2).

The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3).
By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes.
Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Free Software must also be able to be used commercially.

"“Free software” does not mean “noncommercial”. A free program must be available for commercial use, commercial development, and commercial distribution. Commercial development of free software is no longer unusual; such free commercial software is very important. You may have paid money to get copies of free software, or you may have obtained copies at no charge. But regardless of how you got your copies, you always have the freedom to copy and change the software, even to sell copies. "

Here is the source fore these quotes.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Here is the source for selling Free Software.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

Here is the source for what licenses are approved as Free Software by the Free Software Foundation.
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

Here is the problem with IKEMEN

"No license (#NoLicense)

    If source code does not carry a license to give users the four essential freedoms, then unless it has been explicitly and validly placed in the public domain, it is not free software.

    Some developers think that code with no license is automatically in the public domain. That is not true under today's copyright law; rather, all copyrightable works are copyrighted by default. This includes programs. Absent a license to grant users freedom, they don't have any. In some countries, users that download code with no license may infringe copyright merely by compiling it or running it.

    In order for a program to be free, its copyright holders must explicitly grant users the four essential freedoms. The document with which they do so is called a free software license. This is what free software licenses are for.

    Some countries allow authors to put code in the public domain, but that requires explicit action. If you wish to do that, the method we recommend is to use CC0, which also works in other countries by putting on a license that is more or less equivalent to public domain. However, in most cases it is better to copyleft your code to assure that freedom reaches all users of the code.

    Code written by employees of the US government is a special exception, since US copyright law explicitly puts that in the public domain; but this does not apply to works that the US pays a company to write. It also does not apply to other countries, many of which do allow the state to have a copyright on government writings."

Everyone is just sort of assuming that both the original IKEMEN and IKEMEN GO either have no licenses or are in the public domain. This is not acceptable for all the reasons that I put in bold and underlined from the source that I linked to and referenced from above. As far as I can tell, we have no "explicit action" from Suehiro. Apparently a post by someone somewhere says it's public domain. I don't think "a post by someone where" counts as "explicit action" in any legal way. If it's not a license clearly in the source code, I don't believe it counts at all.

I care because I love the potential that IKEMEN and its variants offer the 2D Fighting game community. I know I might seem like a stick in the mud or a worry wart for even bringing this up. But, I am bringing this up because I care. I would like to see if there is a way to nip this problem in the bud before it possibly becomes a problem out of nowhere for people years down the road. It is best to clear this issue up as soon as possible so that everyone knows what the license for the source code is for real so that there is no assuming, no guessing, no ambiguity, and no problems.
Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:12:48 am by NEONSHADOWF13

;x

Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#10  June 15, 2018, 03:22:19 am
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I see. I completely understand where you are coming from. Not many have/or are really making "original" content they own to even think of commercial use. Isn't this why we have things like paetron etc, so its not a completely dead end. I've seen a few guys with their original characters & assets, but they never really did anything with it, so you are right to assume that it's an issue as none have really tried to push it. Things aren't exactly thriving with any community regarding this stuff. Do some research and you'll see what I mean. I just believe that the only people that will use this are the few hardcore fans left, but you never know as you say. Mugen has a deep deep stigma because of Salty bet. No matter what, something big would have to happen for that to change even with us promoting it.

I suppose you haven't heard of unreal fighter 2D? https://www.youtube.com/user/AchilleosUDK/videos
seems like it'd be more up your ally, though I don't know all the specifics.
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#11  June 15, 2018, 05:22:14 am
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I see. I completely understand where you are coming from. Not many have/or are really making "original" content they own to even think of commercial use. Isn't this why we have things like paetron etc, so its not a completely dead end. I've seen a few guys with their original characters & assets, but they never really did anything with it, so you are right to assume that it's an issue as none have really tried to push it. Things aren't exactly thriving with any community regarding this stuff. Do some research and you'll see what I mean. I just believe that the only people that will use this are the few hardcore fans left, but you never know as you say. Mugen has a deep deep stigma because of Salty bet. No matter what, something big would have to happen for that to change even with us promoting it.

I suppose you haven't heard of unreal fighter 2D? https://www.youtube.com/user/AchilleosUDK/videos
seems like it'd be more up your ally, though I don't know all the specifics.

The frustrating thing is that for most software projects, basically like 99%, a license of some sort is included by default. It's the standard thing to do so that everyone is on the same page and everyone knows what the legal status of the software is and what the author's intent of releasing the software is.

That way everyone knows what they can do with the software and all these floating questions are completely answered. Usually, this type of software goes under the GPL, or MIT, or BSD 3, or Apache. These are all common, well known, and well respected licenses for this type of work.

If Ikemen's author had included any one of these four in his source code; like almost everyone making this type of software does, my question would be answered. To my understanding, even now, he could go back into his repositories and add a license.

Picking a license would make his intentions clear on how he wants people to be able to use the code. Including a license is the proper thing to do. I feel like I'm 99% close to the software I have wanted and dreamed of for years; and that I'm held back by the simple 'clerical error' of the author simply not picking a license.

Sense my High School Japanese is very broken, I'm not even sure if I am able to communicate with him well enough to even ask him what the license is; or for him to please pick a license.

Also, here's another example. Say someone wants to try to raise money for the development of IKEMEN PLUS or IKEMEN GO PLUS? What if they put the engines on Steam and charged $1 or $5 for them, even thought you can get them at no cost, as a sort of donation? What if they decided to raise funding through setting up a Patreon?

Programming takes a lot of time and donating to projects can help offset the cost of that time for programmers. So, for instance, they can choose to work less hours at their job for a few weeks or a month to focus on developing the engine in a way they wouldn't be able to without the funding.

Well, what if someone tries that and IKEMEN's author doesn't appreciate other coders making money for developing software further that started with and at its core is still based on his code? Would he come back and sue for profits? I don't know. Unlikely, again, but still a potential legal problem for funding IKEMEN development. Whereas a clear license allowing for commercial use would mitigate this problem entirely.

This is not an unusual situation either. MegaGlest has a page on Steam where you can pay money for it and it is still available on its site at no cost. I paid money to help development. The project lead even explained in the Steam Forums that it helps keep the online servers up.

Wyrmsun also is on Steam, at no cost, but offers paid DLC images (I think it's menu art DLC) to help fund their Free Software game. Yes, you can go download the game at no cost from the repositories. But, this is a funding mechanism. A funding mechanism I would be hesitant to advise IKEMEN PLUS and IKEMEN GO PLUS developers to use because of the license ambiguity, but would I would suggest them look into if the licensing was clear and allowed for commercial use.

We get development drops every three or so months. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all pay a little bit of money to fund development and maybe get monthly updates instead? That would be a nice option to have on the table.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount IKEMEN as a commercially viable engine. People have a thirst for quality 2D Fighting games and "retro 2D Art" done well is always in fashion. Not having a clear license cuts out the viability of such projects, and of even funding IKEMEN development financially. To me, it's a major hurdle for being able to financially promote a more dedicated and stable development of IKEMEN; this trapping IKEMEN into just being a "hobby project" and restricting it from having the potential to fully blossom into the full Free Software project I feel that it has the potential to be.

If someone could fund a full game with unique characters and stages, a matchmaking mechanism and public server could be written into the code so that the online ability could be extended. All the game would need is one really good indie hit title and the engine would be set for further development for everyone to enjoy the benefits from. Especially if a copyleft license is chosen and the hit would be required to release the source that they advanced development on.

I see so much potential in IKEMEN, but I also see so much of it instantly evaporate away because of not have a clear license.
Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 06:14:19 am by NEONSHADOWF13

;x

Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#12  June 15, 2018, 07:18:06 am
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Hmm. You give community too much credit.. This has been around for a while & still none have really done anything with it(Look at this board from the beginning). Other than a few projects, no one is really messing with this stuff anymore. Everyone is quitting/has quit, got bored etc. HDBZ has a donation thing, ask them, I'm sure they can tell you how to go about it. Take time to look around everywhere & see what is actually going on/being made, activity, what people talk about. 90% of the time, its about something unrelated. What you say about someone having to actually do something with it is true, but who is going to do that? Wouldn't they need to actually finish it first? I personally told him I'd pay him myself, but wasn't interested, I'm sure fear of backlash from others. Furthermore, all this is just a concept/plan & has yet to happen yet to really be going that full force.
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#13  June 15, 2018, 08:14:32 am
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I personally told him I'd pay him myself, but wasn't interested, I'm sure fear of backlash from others. Furthermore, all this is just a concept/plan & has yet to happen yet to really be going that full force.

Who is "him" and what specific project are you talking about? You used a lot of pronouns so I'm kind of lost.

;x

Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#14  June 15, 2018, 08:31:23 am
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Before everyone else came along K4thos had been doing this solo, on his own accord. I’m excited for it as well, I’m just saying times are different had this been 10 years ago it’d be a different story, everyone would be on this. Ikemen, people automatically associate it with mugen, mugen to salty bet. Salty bet is the worst possible thing to happen to anyone wanting to do anything serious with this. You are on an Ikemen board look at all the active projects. These days you have to creep around discord’s to see anything. This board in particular died some time ago, but look at the views, comments etc.
Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 09:36:41 am by ;x
Re: What Exactly Are Ikemen and Ikemen +?
#15  June 19, 2018, 05:41:52 pm
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    • rmbase.blog55.fc2.com/
Please read ikemen.txt.
Quote
glew32.dll, libfreetype-6.dll, libogg.dll, libvorbis.dll, libvorbisfile.dll,
lua52.dll, SDL2.dll, SDL2_image.dll, SDL2_ttf.dll, zlib1.dll,
chars以下のファイル, data以下のファイル, plugins以下のファイル,
sound以下のファイル, stages以下のファイル
上記以外のファイルを無断で、改変、再配布、再利用することを禁止しません
Shows that all files are public domain except for DLL files and his MUGEN creations.