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Attack priorities (Read 12563 times)

Started by PotS, September 22, 2007, 12:03:55 pm
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Attack priorities
#1  September 22, 2007, 12:03:55 pm
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You miss the fact in decent gameplay, no matter how you play, you're supposed to trade hits with an opponent without one hit from him and it being over.
Ignoring Reu's chars here, that actually rarely happens in Mugen due to its AWESOME priority system. :buttrox:
Seriously, that only harms the engine IMO because you won't find such thing in real games. In those, if two chars hit each other (and none is benefitting from invulnerability bonuses like Shoryuken's) they'll always trade hits, not check which attack is more leet and wins like Mugen does.
In a perfect world, everyone would disregard the priority parameter on Hitdefs.

Quote
the faqs always talk about the priority of certain hits.
Usually saying that an attack has higher priority means that either:

- Attack is invulnerable at some point. Shoryuken has great priority because of this
- The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)
- That its Clns1 has a fair advantage over the Clsn2, allowing the char to reach the opponent but not the opposite. You can see this with some weapon-wielding chars like Bishamon

Not that it has like a priority of 4 and as such beats attacks with priority 3 or lower, like Mugen does (for most cases).
Yes, 1970! :sugoi:

So, to put it shortly, I've never seen anything like Mugen's priority system in real games, and I believe I've just about checked all the series that matter the most... whether one of the attacks wins or both chars hit each other is always decided based on the criteria I listed on the second quote.

Mugen-wise, that means using "Priority = 4, Hit" on all attacks, and by extension "Priority = 1, Miss" on all throws (although these would need some extra coding in the case of Capcom chars). Projectiles can have whatever you want AFAIK, though I always use 7.
So I'm surprised that even accuracy freaks use awesome stuff like priority 7, the highest, on weak normal attacks. :sugoi: + :wacko:

I've been meaning to do this for my chars for quite a while, but never went ahead with it, afraid that it'd make most of their attacks lose to other chars rather than trading hits whenever possible like in fighting games. But I've had it with that and now have made enough chars to have my own "little group of conventions" :D, so I'm going to start using the values I mentioned, and know two other people who also apparently already do.

Finally, I needed to prove my point, so I made a video showcasing some situations in 3 mainstream games that behave in a totally different way with Mugen chars, even the mostest accuratest ones, where specials and supers are countered by mere normal attacks of varying strength, having both chars trading hits and somewhat proving that all attacks have the same HitDef priority, in Mugen terms.
Made in a short time, I could go on forever showing other examples and other games, but good enough to sum it up I guess. Here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?abhtxwnssjb


Discuss.
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Re: Attack priorities
#2  September 22, 2007, 12:30:02 pm
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mugen definitely does not act like that sometimes.  either due to people not knowing clsn's or applying weird code invulnerabilities.  I think this goes back to the whole can we apply balance to an engine that is contributed to by an infinite number of people.  In order for this to take any effect we have to get all of those people that bash certain creations based on clsn's to bash them based on this as well.  If every single creation that does not follow these priority rules gets bashed throughout the entire community I think we will begin to see a real standard develop.

It is just that you can't force anyone to abide by it.  Again, can we balance out all creations probably not but standards seem to help.

Good luck with establishing this one.

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Re: Attack priorities
#3  September 22, 2007, 12:56:04 pm
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Yeah, you got the point. Except I'm not really trying to start a standard as I don't want to force my way of thinking into other people, just pointing out some facts.

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In order for this to take any effect we have to get all of those people that bash certain creations based on clsn's to bash them based on this as well.  If every single creation that does not follow these priority rules gets bashed throughout the entire community I think we will begin to see a real standard develop.
People that complain about Clsn also do this "wrong". ;P And bashing is too much of a strong word for this, it's more like simply informing.
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Re: Attack priorities
#4  September 22, 2007, 01:28:53 pm
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So, to put it shortly, I've never seen anything like Mugen's priority system in real games, and I believe I've just about checked all the series that matter the most... whether one of the attacks wins or both chars hit each other is always decided based on the criteria I listed on the second quote.

Mugen-wise, that means using "Priority = 4, Hit" on all attacks, and by extension "Priority = 1, Miss" on all throws (although these would need some extra coding in the case of Capcom chars). Projectiles can have whatever you want AFAIK, though I always use 7.
So I'm surprised that even accuracy freaks use awesome stuff like priority 7, the highest, on weak normal attacks. :sugoi: + :wacko:

I Knew that "Mugen Accuracy SNK Priority System" was
                                      
                                       BULL SH@T


:rofl:         :rofl:         :rofl:           :rofl:







I'll watch the vid later, but based on what you said, I can officially LMFAO!!!
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

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Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 01:38:30 pm by Tee Hee Hee
Re: Attack priorities
#5  September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
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For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)
Normally, weaker attacks are faster than stronger ones.

IMHO, mugen's priority system is not useless; it's just you have a wide variety of options to define the priority of an attack besides this magic number (animation speed, CLSNs, NotHitBy, etc.).

Edit: Dan throw made me laugh.

hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#6  September 22, 2007, 04:06:31 pm
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For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)

Finally Someone Understands My Pain.:  :'(

Triggers
Triggers are largely reliable when you are generally coding, but they can encounter problems when you are coding in specifically for CLSN Attack activation for the hitdef. Juggling in particular holds this problem up front and center.
There are many times where I have realized, that a ton of the things I was absolutely coding for in the hitdef, weren't activating properly (I.E. Time = 1; Time = 0; or an animelem that lasted for less than 2 ticks). If you place the CLSN Attack in an animation, where the attacking frame only lasts for 1 tick, or else directly code the hitdef to activate within 1 tick (i.e. time = 6), then only sometimes, you will notice, that the hit will not make contact . If you're not going for accuracy, or whatever, code it for something that activates for a period of 4 ticks, thereby increasing your chances of having the attack properly activate and connect with the opponent.
Movehit activation within specific animelems can also be a pain in certain cases. If that animelem lasts for less than 2 or 3 ticks, quite frequently you'll notice that the char won't activate the hitdef that you defined, meaning, again, that it will not make contact. Make sure the animelem lasts for maybe 3 or more ticks, or else code for more than one animelem.







For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)

For me doing that is a Yes and No.

Yes, justifiably, because the attack coming out first should make contact first.

No, because that can screw up the balance between one char and another, on any level you put it. That can also screw up the dominance of Hypers over weak normals. In addition, I usually create my priorities based on How Mugen Operates.
Yes there is a CLSN Attack Activation Glitch, but that's just something we have to deal with. Creating based on what Mugen 'governs (in glitches, regular gameplay, or otherwise)' IMO, is how it should be done.  I also believe it is right because MOST other creators make their chars that way as well.
To add higher priorities to some chars, where they don't necessarily belong, would make them Cheap, given the above information.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 04:29:58 pm by Tee Hee Hee
Re: Attack priorities
#7  September 22, 2007, 04:11:48 pm
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For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)
Normally, weaker attacks are faster than stronger ones.
But, since they're faster, even having priority=1 is enough to beat the strong attacks, no need to give them high priorities.

Quote
Edit: Dan throw made me laugh.
Hehe. I chose Dan and Gouki, probably the weakest and strongest chars in the game, respectively, to show that the unique priority thing is true even in that extreme case.

Quote
Yes there is a CLSN Attack Activation Glitch, but that's just something we have to deal with.
Man, you keep pulling all these glitches out of nowhere. :S
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Re: Attack priorities
#8  September 22, 2007, 04:15:16 pm
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Yes there is a CLSN Attack Activation Glitch, but that's just something we have to deal with.
Man, you keep pulling all these glitches out of nowhere. :S

Nowhere... No.

The quote Renzo showed supported my claim about hitdefs activating late.


He was saying (or at least my interpreation of what he was saying), was that because attacks do not trigger directly at time = 0 or time = 1, but instead a little later, he adds higher priorities to assure that the attack that comes out FIRST gets the hit.


Edit: Highlights
For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)

Normally, weaker attacks are faster than stronger ones.






Edit - Clarification
The post that I quoted from myself had very messy language. :omg:

I tried to clarify what I was talking about by making a few edits to it  :sugoi:

http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=65633.msg541809#msg541809
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 04:24:58 pm by Tee Hee Hee
Re: Attack priorities
#9  September 22, 2007, 04:23:19 pm
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I was talking about the original games. And it's not a glitch there, it's just how they handle priorities.

Btw HitDefs activate and hit in the exact tick you tell them to, the only delay there is is in the hit char, he only goes to the get hit animation one tick after being hit.
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Re: Attack priorities
#10  September 22, 2007, 04:26:03 pm
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@THH: Not really, P.o.t.s interpretation is the correct for my post.

@P.o.t.s.: I realized is useless after having a brief conversation with you some time ago via PM's (about some issues in my Pocket Zangief). I'm correcting that in my "active" projects.
Re: Attack priorities
#11  September 22, 2007, 09:53:37 pm
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To support P.o.t.S.' position, I throw some more facts.
KOF 2002

KOF 97

(Here Daimon's attack is very quick so it seems that it has more priority)

SNK vs CAPCOM

(Ken's shoryuken has 9 frames of invulnerability, i.e. it has no CLSN2 box. That's why it beats other attacks)
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:56:44 pm by Elix

hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#12  September 22, 2007, 10:34:02 pm
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To support P.o.t.S.' position, I throw some more facts.
KOF 2002

KOF 97

(Here Daimon's attack is very quick so it seems that it has more priority)

SNK vs CAPCOM

(Ken's shoryuken has 9 frames of invulnerability, i.e. it has no CLSN2 box. That's why it beats other attacks)

I was waiting for you... to post that  :sugoi:

That is a great and very KEY point that you just posted. :suttrox:




Elix, though, what are your view on that SNK priority system BTW? I mean since our last discussion of it.


Quote PotS... but I'm not sure if he was referring to the SNK priority system MUGEN B.S. persay

Mugen-wise, that means using "Priority = 4, Hit" on all attacks, and by extension "Priority = 1, Miss" on all throws (although these would need some extra coding in the case of Capcom chars). Projectiles can have whatever you want AFAIK, though I always use 7.
So I'm surprised that even accuracy freaks use awesome stuff like priority 7, the highest, on weak normal attacks. :sugoi: + :wacko:
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 10:39:10 pm by Tee Hee Hee
Re: Attack priorities
#13  September 22, 2007, 11:17:18 pm
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My opinion was formed before I read this topic and before we discussed the issue with P.o.t.S. via MSN. We came to the same conclusion on our own. It is essential for every character which is to be called KOF-accurate (as well as many other games for that matter) to drop using other priority values than 4, Hit, i.e. standard ones. Personally, I see no meaning in using 1, Miss for throws as well. Using 7, Hit for projectiles is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. So my view point will be to just erase the line "Priority = ..." in every HitDef.
Re: Attack priorities
#14  September 23, 2007, 12:00:32 am
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i got "proved wrong" for saying the same thing about one year ago :P .. or something like that (maybe pots remembers that), so i stopped telling people about it. i also use priority = 4 for everithing, though i tweak my throws in a different way. and dman, i hate how kof sometimes won't show the clsn1 on certain ticks of certain attacks >.<.

hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#15  September 23, 2007, 12:07:40 am
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My opinion was formed before I read this topic and before we discussed the issue with P.o.t.S. via MSN.

Wha...??? - I don't have an MSN account, if that reply was at me.





My opinion was formed before I read this topic and before we discussed the issue with P.o.t.S. via MSN. We came to the same conclusion on our own. It is essential for every character which is to be called KOF-accurate (as well as many other games for that matter) to drop using other priority values than 4, Hit, i.e. standard ones. Personally, I see no meaning in using 1, Miss for throws as well. Using 7, Hit for projectiles is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. So my view point will be to just erase the line "Priority = ..." in every HitDef.

Yays   ^_^
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Re: Attack priorities
#16  September 23, 2007, 12:44:31 am
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We = me and P.o.t.S.
i hate how kof sometimes won't show the clsn1 on certain ticks of certain attacks >.<.
Oh, you mean throws... Yeah... If it'll be interesting to you, I'll tell you how I dealt with throws.
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Re: Attack priorities
#17  September 23, 2007, 02:15:27 am
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i like it, though i use 2 buttons style throws with missing animation (though i am feeling like changing that, since it detracts from commadn grabs), like sfz3. biggest difference being that my throw's hitdf won't trigger if the oponent is in certain blocking states. aka, fire up kof in training mode, set p2 to block, then try using any grab/throw.
Re: Attack priorities
#18  September 23, 2007, 10:05:29 am
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Personally, I see no meaning in using 1, Miss for throws as well.
Throws should have at least the Miss parameter, otherwise they may trade hits with a regular attack, and leave the opponent stuck in the custom state (though I currently prevent such glitches by discarding p2stateno and using only TargetState).

Quote
Using 7, Hit for projectiles is not the right thing to do, in my opinion.
Depends, I don't see the problem with using 7 on the common type of projectiles, since they only check for priority against other projectiles and are supposed to always trade hits either way. But there's also the "projectile eaters" like Omega Rugal's and Haou Shoukouken... those may actually have some kind of priority checking, dunno.
Then there are projectiles that can be hit by normal attacks as well (can't think of any atm though ;P) and yes in that case I can see how using priority 7 could be wrong. Need to make some tests in Mugen to see how it handles the priority checking between an attack and a projectile/helper. *takes note*

Quote
i got "proved wrong" for saying the same thing about one year ago  .. or something like that (maybe pots remembers that), so i stopped telling people about it. i also use priority = 4 for everithing, though i tweak my throws in a different way. and dman, i hate how kof sometimes won't show the clsn1 on certain ticks of certain attacks >.<.
I don't. Would be nice to see that topic again.
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Re: Attack priorities
#19  September 23, 2007, 11:23:03 am
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I agree with using priority parameters for some projectiles. It may be helpful for some, for example, Kula's Diamond Breath, Igniz' Divine Arrow, Kyo's Orochinagi which always beat other's normal projectile but neglects each other at the same time. But then again, the standards are needed for priority values, not just 7, Hit for all projectiles. And yes, there are attacks which can hit projectiles (Kyo's Aragami/Dokugami :sugoi:). And in the case of projectiles having Priority = 7, Hit I'm not sure what would happen.
Throws should have at least the Miss parameter, otherwise they may trade hits with a regular attack, and leave the opponent stuck in the custom state (though I currently prevent such glitches by discarding p2stateno and using only TargetState).
I think throws have more "priority" over other attacks here, though I need to make some tests in KOF yet. Do you remember how P1 is invincible to projectile when P2 is grabbed (if projectile was fired at the same tick when P1's grab frame has appeared)? I used NotHitBy trigger at Time = 0 for this.
Re: Attack priorities
#20  September 23, 2007, 11:30:55 am
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Will change my projectiles to 4 as well, but first need to test if that affects how they behave against other chars' projectiles.

I think throws have more "priority" over other attacks here, though I need to make some tests in KOF yet. Do you remember how P1 is invincible to projectile when P2 is grabbed (if projectile was fired at the same tick when P1's grab frame has appeared)? I used NotHitBy trigger at Time = 0 for this.
The Mugen bug happens when the char is hit just as the throw connects, not when he has just changed states AFAIK, so I'm not sure that can prevent it.
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