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Accuracy VS Compatibility (Read 6882 times)

Started by PotS, April 30, 2008, 02:48:42 am
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Accuracy VS Compatibility
#1  April 30, 2008, 02:48:42 am
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Sometimes people like to take random accuracy bits from the original game for no reason better than "it was there" and putting them in their char, without considering the effects that will have when the char is actually being played, and end up making their char behave unproperly or, in several cases, becoming unplayable in certain conditions.
There is a line that should be drawn between when a char can and can't be accurate, and I was feeling like writing about my own opinion on it, it's up to you to give a damn or not.  Will list some gameplay elements that should be handled with care and what you should/shouldn't do with them.


Friction Constants

Should be kept the same as Kung Fu Man.
I've seen many people changing this just to (namely) go on about "accurate KOF friction!!!", when in fact friction usually varies with each move so the only time the constant should come into play is when the character is getting hit, a situation where compatibility should be definitely favoured.
Why not change it?  Many characters count on the opponent to use the standard friction constant (0,85) to determine how far it should slide when attacked on the ground, so lowering this value will make your char end up not far enough and being open to a larger combo than it should, while increasing it makes your char slide away to safety as if ice skating.
So keep these constants at their default level (though I kinda violate this "rule" by making crouching friction the same as if standing) and use "N" physics plus Velmul to reproduce the right friction for a given move.

The other side of the argument on this one says that accurate friction produces better results when facing an opponent from the same game, which completely ignores how large the number of chars out there is, and would make the char work properly if the opponent comes from the same game/series (2% of all chars?) and its author used accurate friction (0,1%?) while being screwed up against all the rest.


Fall Recovery

Never entirely remove this.
Several gameplay systems rely on this feature to end juggling combos (SFA3, GG, MB), so by removing it you're dooming your char to be juggled forever (usually) if he runs into such an opponent.  If you really must disable manual fall recovery, I suggest making it so that the character automatically recovers when allowed to, and, if you really want to kill aerial fights when a char recovers, just make him invulnerable until he lands (just don't make him both invulnerable and with control).


Invulnerability on Safe Fall/Ground Fall Recovery

I only realized this recently, but the char should be invulnerable during the whole animation even though accuracy (to some games) says to make him vulnerable on the last frame(s).
The reason behind it is that chars who can OTG (hit a fallen opponent back into the air) can keep doing it forever if Ground Fall Recovery, usually the only defense against it, does not grant the char a chance to return to an idle state, since they can keep hitting your char out of the recovery and back into the combo.
So, the invulnerability on State 5201 should not be changed, but you can always make alternative kinds of recovery be vulnerable without breaking anything, for instance KOF chars should have invulnerable Safe Fall but vulnerable (at the end) Forward Safe Fall.


Air Guard

Can or cannot be removed.  Whether an attack should allow your char to air guard it should be defined by the opponent, not your char, so removing it doesn't really help any of them.
Removing it might however cause some funky situations where the opponent can spam attacks that are supposed to be blockable midair and get an advantage he shouldn't, but this one boils down to how balanced the chars are between each other in other areas.
What shouldn't be done, however, (and I've seen it done, and pointed it out to no effect) is removing air guard from your char but let the opponent air guard your own attacks, perhaps for obvious reasons.


CLSN2 on getting hit animations

Whatever you do, just don't make them as tiny as Kung Fu Man's...
For standing and crouching get hit animations (anims 5000 to 5027), Clsn2 should be exactly the same as in the idle stance and crouch (0 and 11), to ensure your char doesn't miraculously break out of combos.  This bit can be confirmed in some Capcom games, but in SNK games (namely KOF) they are basically the same but still vary a bit according to the position of the char's upper body.  I personally favour the first style of making them (even for KOF chars) for a reason stated before (when getting hit, compatibility > accuracy) but the latter isn't so bad and can be easily justified.  Just never make them too different from their idle counterparts.
Oh, about the opening statement, I was talking about Clsn2 on aerial get hits, Kung Fu Man's are just too small to juggle him properly and nothing like you see in fighting games.  So just make sure those Clsn2 are large enough to not let your char fall through a Shoryuken that should've hit (but don't make them huge either).


Dizzy/Guard Crush systems

These are outside of Mugen's common system, so do whatever you prefer if you choose to use either of them.
Wasn't gonna mention this one, but there is something I'd like to say about it and that is dizzy systems should be coded for the opponent, not your own char (if not going to code for both).  Why?  Because dizzying is part of a game's combo system, if you manage to cause a certain ammount of damage on the opponent, the game rewards you with one more free combo.  So coding it for the opponent allows you to reproduce your char's dizzy combos from the original (accuracy up) while coding it for your own char extends the opponent's combos when it shouldn't (accuracy down for the opponent).


Ended up this long because I was planning to move it to the tips section after discussing it.
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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#2  April 30, 2008, 03:32:31 am
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 ;D

Thank You P.O.T.S

I have saved this file to reference when I am tweaking my upcoming WIPS, this is a very helpful piece of information you have given to those of us learning coding.

I am fairly new at it but I understand most of it very well when I open the CNS and CMD files now.

I am actually a far better spriter and animator more than anything, but the coding thing will help me on my way to getting my chars out there without too much scrutiny I am sure.

GOOD POST!! 8)

By Marius121 at 2008-04-29
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#3  April 30, 2008, 04:58:41 am
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Characters do NOT Have to be perfect, I will echo PotS on that.

IE: (9)'s characters don't have accurate velocities, Damage values, Ect. but most people don't complain.
Putting somthing uleless in "Because it was there" is, well, you know... useless.
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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#4  April 30, 2008, 05:02:49 am
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That wasn't the point.
"Accurate velocities, Damage values, Ect" aren't useless at all and actually add to the char's value and playability, unlike the stuff I went on about.
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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#5  April 30, 2008, 05:38:05 am
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He's talking about doing things for accuracy's sake that will have an adverse effect on your character when used vs other characters that aren't in the same genre. Which as we should all know is what mugen is about when you play it.

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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#6  April 30, 2008, 05:50:33 am
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A quality read. Many factors to analyze before giving an opinion.
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#7  April 30, 2008, 07:32:35 am
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For the most part I agree, except for the guard crush bit. There's just too many compatibility problems that are introduced with it (for example, pitting a SFA3 character with guard crush against an MvC Beam Super).
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#8  April 30, 2008, 08:41:54 am
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I personally use KoF friction values and don't really see too much of a problem with it as it allows a lot of KoF characters to pull their combos on me as they were meant.




However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example. Sorry, but I think it's just retarded to be hit out of, say, Galactica Phantom, with a wimpy little light punch, even if it would be accurate (although I seriously doubt it would behave like this in KoF, but I just thought it would be a good example since it is the strongest and most awesome punch we have in MUGEN so far next to Falcon Punch).
Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 08:45:11 am by [Kira]
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#9  April 30, 2008, 08:45:21 am
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I personally use KoF friction values and don't really see too much of a problem with it as it allows a lot of KoF characters to pull their combos on me as they were meant.
Only if the hitvels on the other char were coded with that friction in mind, which happens once every full moon.

Quote
However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Two schools of thought on that one, I can't say any of them is right or wrong. Only silly situation sometimes is combining accurate Clsn with ghetto priority systems, "oh look my light punch has accurate Clsn but it beats everything anyway".

edit: stupid typo
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Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 09:35:46 am by P.o.t.S. el malo
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#10  April 30, 2008, 08:53:39 am
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I personally use KoF friction values and don't really see too much of a problem with it as it allows a lot of KoF characters to pull their combos on me as they were meant.
Only if the hitvels on the other char were coded with that friction in mind, which happens once every full moon.
Indeed.


Quote
However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Too schools of thought on that one, I can't say any of them is right or wrong. Only silly situation sometimes is combining accurate Clsn with ghetto priority systems, "oh look my light punch has accurate Clsn but it beats everything anyway".
Personally I'd rather go by what Elecbyte and TestP, who were rather close to each other, set in this case. Yeah, sure, you could use the same argument for friction right there, but keep in mind they didn't use the methods we did to convert things, not to mention TestP didn't seem too concerned with accuracy. It's also impossible to replicate KoF priorities due to the way CLSNs are handled in the actual games. Ditto for pretty much every other game out there. So why even bother?
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#11  April 30, 2008, 09:24:34 am
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KoF priorities are wierd anyway.

In fact, I think the hitboxes on basics flicker. So although they hit once, the actual hitting clsn goes away and comes back on the same frame a few times. That would explain why sometimes you trade, and sometimes you're knocked out even though you can't see why you would have been knocked out.

Specials (especially anti air), don't do the blue overlap. This is really noticeable (if you're bored) by macroing joe's tiger kick/knee for p1 and p2 then turning on hitboxes. They overlap a lot, until they get right in close then it hits. Well that's 2k2 anyway. I imagine it's not dissimilar in other games.


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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#12  April 30, 2008, 04:51:19 pm
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Friction Constants
I am with Jesuszilla's , I would rather keep them relatively accurate or play around with the values than just use kfm's.

Fall Recovery
Agree with pots , mugen's default system isa ctually flexible enough to account for most common situations in fighting games, whether or not you can air recover and how should be left to the attacker.


Invulnerability on Safe Fall/Ground Fall Recovery
Disagree with pots, I don't feel like elaborating right now.

Air Guard
Not removed at all, since the attacker can set it's ground attacks as unguardable there is not need to disable your air guard.

CLSN2 on getting hit animations
Agree with pots.

Dizzy/Guard Crush systems.
They should be used on the attacker's side, not the defender, for reason explained before by the other posters.

hjk

Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#13  May 01, 2008, 02:11:19 am
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However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example. Sorry, but I think it's just retarded to be hit out of, say, Galactica Phantom, with a wimpy little light punch, even if it would be accurate (although I seriously doubt it would behave like this in KoF, but I just thought it would be a good example since it is the strongest and most awesome punch we have in MUGEN so far next to Falcon Punch).
What I really hate with Priority, is when people do not put any CLSN Collisions withing their CLSN Attacks. I even hate it when people put miniscule CLSN collisions in their CLSN Attacks. That cheap crap is the Worst. JZ, when comparing Ahuron to Jin, you said Jin was OK. On this issue though (it seems very important to you and I agree it should be to all of us), I would put Jin in the same category (unless his updates FINALLY fixed this which I doubt), specifically with his Ioris. God, since when was there a 'no trade hit' in KOF.

However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Really? First define what you mean by priority please, because what I posted above is also considered a priority issue. I've seen the 'typed/wrritten' priority system follow KFM's most of the time, but in terms of CLSN organization, it's almost a Hell No there. Second, where are you getting your chars from?
I am completely with you though, if all chars followed KFM, Mugen would be so much better IMO.

(although I seriously doubt it would behave like this in KOF)
Preach it, so true.

However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Two schools of thought on that one, I can't say any of them is right or wrong. Only silly situation sometimes is combining accurate Clsn with ghetto priority systems, "oh look my light punch has accurate ClSN but it beats everything anyway".
I hate that so much. Sander, I hope you update on one of your random come backs. Same with OrochiKOF97.
What about that whole, initial tick throw thing? God I hate that. Personally though PotS, I think that your priority system should be 3 instead of 4. 3 vs. 4 yields the same result as 3 vs. 7 and if i interpretted JZ's post correctly, the written priority for the most part should follow KFM  :-\ . Also yeah, your chars lack speed (for the basics) and are well randomized tipping the match balance in their opponent's favor, but they do have range at least  :-\

edit: stupid typo
unproperly
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Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 02:24:52 am by Jango's GodZilla
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#14  May 01, 2008, 02:16:41 am
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Random and I mean you no insult:
Something I find amazing about all of the people that I have met who speak Portuguese, in English I have never seen them make mistakes [I can identify]. As a whole they've completely amazed me.
Offtopic: You havent read me enough.

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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#15  May 01, 2008, 02:22:00 am
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LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#16  May 01, 2008, 02:32:39 am
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About the Galactica Phantom example, there's all sorts of things going on in that move that prevent a light punch (read, anything?) from beating it (invulnerable areas, autoguard), it's not just a "place priority as 7" matter.
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Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#17  May 01, 2008, 03:35:08 am
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Hey Pots Thanx again for this piece most of what you said works like a charm when Editing :sugoi:

Are you posting any more read me's like this in the future??

By Marius121 at 2008-04-29
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#18  May 01, 2008, 03:50:56 am
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the biggest problem of the priority parameter for me is that it does not allow you to have circular or jankenpon priority, something like move A beats move B, move B ebat move C, but move C beats move A.
Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#19  May 01, 2008, 08:13:25 am
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However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example. Sorry, but I think it's just retarded to be hit out of, say, Galactica Phantom, with a wimpy little light punch, even if it would be accurate (although I seriously doubt it would behave like this in KoF, but I just thought it would be a good example since it is the strongest and most awesome punch we have in MUGEN so far next to Falcon Punch).
What I really hate with Priority, is when people do not put any CLSN Collisions withing their CLSN Attacks. I even hate it when people put miniscule CLSN collisions in their CLSN Attacks. That cheap crap is the Worst. JZ, when comparing Ahuron to Jin, you said Jin was OK. On this issue though (it seems very important to you and I agree it should be to all of us), I would put Jin in the same category (unless his updates FINALLY fixed this which I doubt), specifically with his Ioris. God, since when was there a 'no trade hit' in KOF.
That was like a year or two ago. After actually playing XI and KoF more, my God has Jin coded some of the worst shit out there.

However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Really? First define what you mean by priority please, because what I posted above is also considered a priority issue. I've seen the 'typed/wrritten' priority system follow KFM's most of the time, but in terms of CLSN organization, it's almost a Hell No there. Second, where are you getting your chars from?
I am completely with you though, if all chars followed KFM, Mugen would be so much better IMO.
The priority parameter in the hitdefs?

However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Two schools of thought on that one, I can't say any of them is right or wrong. Only silly situation sometimes is combining accurate Clsn with ghetto priority systems, "oh look my light punch has accurate ClSN but it beats everything anyway".
I hate that so much. Sander, I hope you update on one of your random come backs. Same with OrochiKOF97.
What about that whole, initial tick throw thing? God I hate that. Personally though PotS, I think that your priority system should be 3 instead of 4. 3 vs. 4 yields the same result as 3 vs. 7 and if i interpretted JZ's post correctly, the written priority for the most part should follow KFM  :-\ . Also yeah, your chars lack speed (for the basics) and are well randomized tipping the match balance in their opponent's favor, but they do have range at least  :-\
Indeed. I am not too fond at all of Phantom's priority system (Or OKoF's for that matter) because it does unbalance things.

About the Galactica Phantom example, there's all sorts of things going on in that move that prevent a light punch (read, anything?) from beating it (invulnerable areas, autoguard), it's not just a "place priority as 7" matter.
Yeah, forgot about that, but again, was just using that as an example of a really freakin' hard hit. As in, pretend as if there were no invulnerabilities or autoguard. Place the situation in real life if that helps. My point is, stronger moves ought to have higher priorities as seen in KFM. Only difference is KFM never makes use of priority = 7 and has priority = 6 for Triple Kung Fu Palm as well as most specials, while he has a priority of 5 for Hyper Kung Fu Upper. Personally, I use 3 for light normals (and now that I look at my hitdefs again, I also use it for throws for some strange reason. Not quite sure if I should leave it that way or not, though.), 4 for medium normals, 5 for heavy normals, 6 for specials, and 7 for supers.

hjk

Re: Accuracy VS Compatibility
#20  May 01, 2008, 08:38:35 am
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*Going to bed right after this post*

About the Galactica Phantom example, there's all sorts of things going on in that move that prevent a light punch (read, anything?) from beating it (invulnerable areas, autoguard), it's not just a "place priority as 7" matter.
What about the rest of my question to you  :'( ?

However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example. Sorry, but I think it's just retarded to be hit out of, say, Galactica Phantom, with a wimpy little light punch, even if it would be accurate (although I seriously doubt it would behave like this in KoF, but I just thought it would be a good example since it is the strongest and most awesome punch we have in MUGEN so far next to Falcon Punch).
What I really hate with Priority, is when people do not put any CLSN Collisions withing their CLSN Attacks. I even hate it when people put miniscule CLSN collisions in their CLSN Attacks. That cheap crap is the Worst. JZ, when comparing Ahuron to Jin, you said Jin was OK. On this issue though (it seems very important to you and I agree it should be to all of us), I would put Jin in the same category (unless his updates FINALLY fixed this which I doubt), specifically with his Ioris. God, since when was there a 'no trade hit' in KOF.
That was like a year or two ago. After actually playing XI and KoF more, my God has Jin coded some of the worst shit out there.
LOL, I forgot how long it had been.

However, I would like to take this time to say that I believe the priorities should follow the example of KFM as most of the characters I have seen so far follow that example.
Really? First define what you mean by priority please, because what I posted above is also considered a priority issue. I've seen the 'typed/wrritten' priority system follow KFM's most of the time, but in terms of CLSN organization, it's almost a Hell No there. Second, where are you getting your chars from?
I am completely with you though, if all chars followed KFM, Mugen would be so much better IMO.
The priority parameter in the hitdefs?
OK. What's with the '?' mark?
*Edit* - Nevermind, yes the priority parameter.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.