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Lets have a KoF features discussion (Read 7615 times)

Started by Cyanide, December 04, 2008, 08:52:29 am
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Lets have a KoF features discussion
#1  December 04, 2008, 08:52:29 am
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Unlike mukai, my current wip requires me to go a little more indepth. As such i'm finding some interesting stuff out. I'm sure MANY of you know this already, in fact i know some of you do. But lots of this isn't really common knowledge, and it'd be nice to get it out there.

Here's a starter, add what you wish

Messing with 2k2
Some moves outside of max mode can be canceled. These occur in a specific frame and seem to have a very narrow window. The frame involved will always be the last tick of a hit. For lights, it appears to allow hit 1, for hard, it's hit 2.

I need to do some more fiddling to set that in stone.

Max mode seems to change things. You can cancel at any point in any basic. Doesn't need to be that tick. If it IS that frame, you don't get a flash effect. If it's at a MAX only time, your character will flash white.

For special>special they seem to abide by the same rules as basic>special outside of max mode. It's a defined point in the attack. Command after that, doesn't seem to let you cancel. You will always flash white at this point. Some specials do not seem to let you cancel. I cannot cancel De-Cide even with mayhem macro'd and button mashing.

Would anyone care to add to this, or elaborate on a different feature?

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Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#2  December 04, 2008, 09:45:00 am
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Regarding MAX Mode, yeah, free cancels are only for certain specials.


I can't recall any specials that are able to cancel into other specials. Follow-ups don't count.
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#3  December 04, 2008, 09:49:10 am
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Kyo has a weird max mode bug(?), sometimes his Aragami cancels into the Dokugami by QCF + HP but sometimes it can also lead to an aragami followup instead of dokugami, I have no idea what triggers apply.
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#4  December 04, 2008, 10:32:48 am
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Quote
I can't recall any specials that are able to cancel into other specials. Follow-ups don't count.
I can regularly cancel Outrage heavy into mayhem or decide. I can also cancel matures QCB+P into her QCB+K. Haven't fiddled with many others.

Another one is throws. I noticed this when i picked up OrochiKOF_97's vice (i wanted to look at what he'd done with her) I did wonder why Blackend hit at the wierdest times.

In KoF throws are seen as instantaneous. There is very rarely any startup anim for entering the throw except in supers. Basic throws just put you there. However if all you do is add a hitbox then the character can pull you in from miles away if it manages to contact with a kick, or a punch, even when you're at a rather unthrowable distance.

KoF's throws seem to work on the internal "push" box rather than the clsn2's. If someone is too far off you shouldn't be able to throw them, even if a blue clsn enter's your hit area. It ought to be the body box instead. This is why you can throw/command throw, someone out of the evasion. The push box is still there to be picked up.


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Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#5  December 04, 2008, 02:23:00 pm
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Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#6  December 04, 2008, 04:48:42 pm
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Just how far back do you want to go ? 97, 98, 94, 2002,99 ?
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#7  December 04, 2008, 08:15:28 pm
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Doesn't matter, if there's a feature, describe it.


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Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#8  December 05, 2008, 12:40:20 am
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Concerning cancelling moves. You're right partially. I can give more detail as I've been studying this a whole year while working on my Kyo.
For basic attacks and command moves there's a general rule. They can be cancelled usually on the 2nd tick of attack frame. In other words, right after the 1st tick of attack frame. There are exceptions such as some crouching weak attacks, which can be cancelled only on the 3rd tick of the attack frame. This is done intentionally to avoid extreme combos while low-poking, as I presume. Anyhow, cancelling window for all basic and command moves is ONE frame. And it doesn't matter whether you hit your opponent or not, you may cancel basic/command attacks into specials/DMs without touching your opponent. The reason why it is so much easier to cancel an attack when you hit your opponent is... hitpause + command buffer.
For specials there's also a rule, which might be a little harder to notice at first. You may cancel (chain) specials into another specials (chain combo) while attack frames persist, i.e. as long as CLSN1 is active. My observations and tests tell me that the last frame when special can be cancelled is the 1st tick of the frame which goes after the last attack frame (Read this again until you understand). :) Of course, there might be some exceptions and additional conditions (like that special must hit the opponent to be cancelled - Ex Kyo). But most of the time, when you need to make custom chain specials you may follow this rule, which makes perfect sense btw.

Regarding throws I have my own methods too. Well noted that "KoF's throws seem to work on the internal "push" box rather than the clsn2's". To be more precise, your "push" box ("width" in mugen terms) must be in contact with P2's center. Also, you can't grapple jumping opponent (so leave out states 40 and 52) and guarding (states [120,155]). This is what my throw controller looks like:
[State -1, Hatsugane]; close to opponent, f + Y or b + Y
type = ChangeState
value = 800
triggerall = !var(0); <- AI var
triggerall = ctrl; <- this's obvious
triggerall = StateType = S; <- you must at least stand
triggerall = P2StateNo != 40 && P2StateNo != 52; <- can't grapple jumping opponent
triggerall = P2StateNo != [120,155]; <- can't grapple guarding opponent
triggerall = P2MoveType != H; <- can't grapple an opponent which is currently being hit
triggerall = P2StateType = S || P2StateType = C; <- no grappling of aiborne or down opponents
triggerall = P2BodyDist X = [-(const(size.ground.front)+const(size.ground.back)),0]; <- valid distance between you and P2 for throw to activate
trigger1 = Helper(52087),var(5) && (Helper(52087),var(11) || Helper(52087),var(12)); <- your command for a throw here
This is pretty much a repost of what I've said earlier in this topic. Anyone interested might look there. Or would it be better to post it all here?
Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 12:44:11 am by Elix
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#9  December 05, 2008, 01:26:32 am
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It's better to post there.

generaly speaking I use a trigger of animelemno(-1)= hitframe in mugen.
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#10  December 05, 2008, 07:19:38 am
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Quote
(Read this again until you understand)
Quiet you, that makes perfect sense. And is better explained than what i was trying to get at.

My testing was done by setting up a macro so i could whack the key quickly and be pretty sure i was getting the cancel as soon as it was possible. Current testing, based on what you've just said in fact seems to say it's any time within the attacking frame, not just that tick. I can get a cancel on tick 1 or tick 4 (well if the move HAS 4 ticks to the frame)

Quote
Regarding throws I have my own methods too. Well noted that "KoF's throws seem to work on the internal "push" box rather than the clsn2's". To be more precise, your "push" box ("width" in mugen terms) must be in contact with P2's center. Also, you can't grapple jumping opponent (so leave out states 40 and 52) and guarding (states [120,155]). This is what my throw controller looks like:
Does the "in contact with p2's center" bit take into account command throws which have more variable range to them? Command throws are affected by essentially the same rules, with the exception that they have a whiff animation. If it's going to hit, it does. During the throw animation, unless there is a startup frame before p2 is hit, there should not be a clsn1 involved in the throw animation.

Here's one too many people screw up.

KoF's evade is NOT total invulnerability. During the entirety of it your character may be thrown. KoF seems to define throws as anything that shows up the throw hitspark. Things like Clark Tackle don't seem to count. In addition, right near the end there is a small window of oppurtunity where you can be hit by anything. I forget if that's near the start too.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#11  December 08, 2008, 03:08:21 am
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- Something almost nobody gets right: Rolling out of a run increases the roll velocity by 2.
- The guard.velocity of the CD attack is different from ALL the others.
- Guard.velocity of the jumping hard basics should be the same as the ground.velocity used in the standing ones (usually between -10 and -12). This applies to the CD attack as well, except it uses -14.90625 as the guard.velocity in KOF.
- The guard meter acts just like the regular life meter and its full value is the same.
Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 03:17:29 am by Vans
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#12  December 09, 2008, 12:02:05 am
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- The guard meter acts just like the regular life meter and its full value is the same.
So you get guard crushed if you guard attacks that add up for the full value of your lifebar?
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#13  December 09, 2008, 12:15:05 am
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Sort of, some moves have a really high guard crush value while others use the normal damage value.
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#14  December 09, 2008, 12:41:16 pm
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- The guard meter acts just like the regular life meter and its full value is the same.
KOF XI has different values for life and guard meters. 104 is maximum life, 144 - maximum guard, iirc. I am still to find out the dependance between attacks and their stun meter values.
Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 12:50:43 pm by Elix
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#15  December 09, 2008, 10:47:08 pm
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Seems to be arbitrary to be honest, save for what I said above the values make no damn sense at all.
Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 10:54:47 pm by Vans
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#16  December 09, 2008, 11:25:57 pm
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What? You say "The guard meter acts just like the regular life meter and its full value is the same." Its (guard meter's) full value (numerical value) is the same (as life meter's). This is how I get what you've written there. And which part of my answer do you find to be arbitrary?
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#17  December 09, 2008, 11:27:47 pm
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I meant the actual values "dealt" by the attacks in that last line. :P
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#18  December 09, 2008, 11:28:26 pm
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In most kofs, there might always be exceptions in certain versions of kof.
Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#19  December 09, 2008, 11:29:53 pm
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Re: Lets have a KoF features discussion
#20  December 11, 2008, 12:10:00 am
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When I say general I mean "for most kof versions besides weird spinoffs and after 97" otherwise I will try and mention the year.
(general)
Throws can't hit oponents that are on guarding states.

the next is along explanation on an aproximate implementation of kof's juggle system, as long as you don't have striker this should work ok.

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Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 12:23:12 am by Rosa Gigantea