Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:05:23 amWhat about her is so detestable?I'll grant you I don't have the best source for this, but friends of mine keep bitching about her taking money and ripping people off and producing nothing of value with it and I am so beyond tired of hearing about it.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:05:23 amStereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)I disagree. Stereotypes tend to exist for reasons. It's only a problem when people tend to assume that all people are stereotypical. The rape caves in Duke Nukem didn't exist to be degrading to women, they existed to poke fun at an entire genre of alien movies. Satirizing something degrading with more degradation isn't really degrading in and of itself, if you see what I'm saying. As for Tomb Raider, it's my understanding that it was a problem with the way the game was marketed, not a problem with the game's content, so, so what?Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:05:23 amRational people will not tar and feather people who disagree with her findings and stuff. Unless of course they're being crazy misogynists, but that's not really an issue in most cases.And how the heck is examining the way games use female characters "agenda-driven"?How many rational people have you met? Examining them isn't. Examining them with predetermined conclusions in mind, the way she is, is.Quote"Agenda-driven" means something different from simply having an agenda (which everyone has because humanity). It's usually used as a buzzword to dismiss viewpoints that one disagrees with (though not always in the form of "agenda-driven", it might be just agenda on it's own, like "the gay agenda" or what have you)Uh, no. 'Agenda-driven' is doing experiments while having a vested interest in the outcome being a particular way. That is not how science works. I am not dismissing viewpoints, I am dismissing any notion of what she's doing being at all scientific or unbiased. She's, at best, making feminist propaganda, and that saddens me immensely.
i don't think this video by itself is very useful, but if her future videos cover other roles of women in videogames then it's not really a bad thing. if by the end of the series she leaves out obvious topics and examples then she's dumb and a bad researcher.also the people that said she should be murdered or raped are human scum and deserve death (surprisingly they're mostly reddit and 4chan regulars lol)also i found this imageand i don't know what point it is trying to get across. were people expecting her to blow the 160k on having michael bay give her amazing explosions in the background or some shit. it's got a meme face too. destroy the internet
This is why I'm angry, right from the second link in the OP:QuoteSarkeesian sought $6,000 on Kickstarter to produce slicker versions of her earlier, DIY series, and she was smeared by vile, angry gamer-dudes who created games where you could beat the crap out of her for the sin of identifying as a feminist and daring to question the portrayal of gender in games.No, you absolute fucking--No. For the 'sin' of being the kind of feminist that is only interested in women and not gender equality, and for skewing the shit out of her results to prove her points.But I can't say that. Because I'm a man. =/
You're right, I was literally just rereading this and realizing what I defended (I don't think that's anywhere near as severe as an actual death threat, but it's still all sorts of ridiculous and horrible). I was just trying to point out what happens whenever anyone criticizes her now. She's the hero who DARED to question gender in games. She can't possibly have her head up her ass, it's just ANGRY MEN.But yeah that would have worked much better without the death game part, whoops
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amI'll grant you I don't have the best source for this, but friends of mine keep bitching about her taking money and ripping people off and producing nothing of value with it and I am so beyond tired of hearing about it.So basically, you're talking out of your ass. :VSnakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amI disagree. Stereotypes tend to exist for reasons.And those reasons tend to be terrible, regressive reasons.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amThe rape caves in Duke Nukem didn't exist to be degrading to women, they existed to poke fun at an entire genre of alien movies.And yet, they ended up being degrading to women! Their intent does not excuse that extraordinarily fucked up result.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amAs for Tomb Raider, it's my understanding that it was a problem with the way the game was marketed, not a problem with the game's content, so, so what?Yes, the marketing was what I'm referring to. That's why I said PR. But that it was the marketing doesn't mean it doesn't matter; that whole debacle was emblematic of what the industry thinks about women.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amHow many rational people have you met? I'm not sure what you mean. Normal people aren't gonna get super upset when someone disagrees with them. If they do, then they're not being rational.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amExamining them isn't. Examining them with predetermined conclusions in mind, the way she is, is.But what makes you so sure that she is examining them with predetermined conclusions?Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amUh, no. 'Agenda-driven' is doing experiments while having a vested interest in the outcome being a particular way. That is not how science works. I am not dismissing viewpoints, I am dismissing any notion of what she's doing being at all scientific or unbiased. She's, at best, making feminist propaganda, and that saddens me immensely.When has she said this was a scientific study? How is making some videos exploring the way games treat women characters an experiment? It's not a study nor is it propaganda, it's a video about one woman's thoughts on a complicated subject.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:24:56 amNo, you absolute fucking--No. For the 'sin' of being the kind of feminist that is only interested in women and not gender equality, and for skewing the shit out of her results to prove her points.But I can't say that. Because I'm a man. =/You're being ridiculous. :|
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amSo basically, you're talking out of your ass. :VConsidering other reactions in this thread, and the video linked, I very much doubt it.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amAnd those reasons tend to be terrible, regressive reasons.Cats are independent, low-key, and aloof. o.oOverman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amAnd yet, they ended up being degrading to women! Their intent does not excuse that extraordinarily fucked up result.No they didn't and yes it does. Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amYes, the marketing was what I'm referring to. That's why I said PR. But that it was the marketing doesn't mean it doesn't matter; that whole debacle was emblematic of what the industry thinks about women.Really. You know the mindset of an entire industry, because of what a PR firm did on a game written by a woman, and apparently very good about this shit by all accounts? BULLSHIT. You're fitting the facts to your own pre-defined conclusion.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amBut what makes you so sure that she is examining them with predetermined conclusions?Well....DKDC said, March 09, 2013, 07:25:40 pmThe video is actually interesting... At first, until you realize that she's never talking about stuff like the Final Fantasy series where you'll always find a girl as a major, active character, she sticks to the Mario and Zelda games just to get to her point (which, by the end, is really nauseous). When she gets to Zelda she even complains that she's not the star of "her own game" - even though it never was "her game". Even on the "sequel hook" for the part 2 video, she says she'll talk about more modern games.... that use the tropes. Not the ones that don't use it. You know, we could, someday, see game creators maybe start considering putting females in the lead role where they're equal to guys ! We could call these games Metroid or Tomb Raider or whatever we like.Lolmechy said, March 09, 2013, 07:41:17 pmIm all for better representation of of women in video games, but Anita is just bad. This is not a way to go about it.WARPra-San said, March 09, 2013, 08:12:37 pmI think that even Anita herself knows that she's full of shit and is just grabbing cash from the many, many impressionable people of the internet. Man she'd make a good gold digger.DKDC said, March 09, 2013, 07:25:40 pmIn other words I'm saying this series is completely useless for this exact premise. It's flawed, it's useless. It's focusing on one specific point, and it's removing all scale for comparison of how relevant that point is to the entire game industry. You could make a study about slavery, and focus only on games with actual slavery or racism in it, ignoring all the games that don't have slavery but still use black people as central characters. This is exactly what it is.Titiln said, March 10, 2013, 03:22:34 ami don't think this video by itself is very useful, but if her future videos cover other roles of women in videogames then it's not really a bad thing. if by the end of the series she leaves out obvious topics and examples then she's dumb and a bad researcher.Good enough...?Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amWhen has she said this was a scientific study? How is making some videos exploring the way games treat women characters an experiment? It's not a study nor is it propaganda, it's a video about one woman's thoughts on a complicated subject.The entire thing was couched in terms of research funding and legitimacy, not propaganda. It was 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games and examine them to figure out shit about gender in games', not 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games, ignore half of them, and edit together a video that proves my point'.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 amYou're being ridiculous. :|No u.EDIT: Also completely missed Cazaki's post on the bottom of page 1, agree completely with it, and had a discussion about it on another mugen site earlier this week. Oversexualization is bad, I want stories and good gameplay not titties plz.With some exceptions I guess. GANTZ would not have worked without the gratuitous fucking.
this could have been a fun thing to do, exploration of the genre is always fun.I do however feel they are going at it backasswards. Videogames are usually a reflection of the movie culture at the time, in the eighties you would get movies where the girl was kidnapped at the beginning, pretty much every stereotypical eighties movie, and so the games followed suit. By exploring the "trope" but not the culture where it was inserted they are being disingenuous and purposedly only focusing on what benefits their point "Oh no EXPLORATION" . The videogame culture is actually on the forefront of the gender equalization, and has always been. For every duke nuken and mario you had Jill of the jungle, Tyris Flare, Athena, chun li and even the common example, Samus, The woman as a protagonist was always there from the start, and that there were women used as damsels in distress is nothing more representing of the videogame culture as it is a representation of the movies of the era.She jumped wildly in eras to prove her point, while ignoring anything that went against it, like the monkey island games, where the "damsel" in distress ends up saving you most of the times. Her main examples were Zelda, Mario and Star fox?! What the heck? What about Donkey kong Junior where the damsel in distress is DONKEY kong?You play as someone set to save donkey FROM mario.Why does Pauline and even the game remake get mentioned, but this is ignored? This might be interesting if the next episodes arent clearly biased but this one wasnt that good. Special mention goes to Marian in Double Dragon Neon, the remake of the old game which she cricitized for having Marian kidnapped again( what were they expecting of a remake? ) while ignoring the characterization that wayforward added to be able to keep the original game and themes while giving something else Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty( In neon Marian turns out to have some hidden powers, sending Billy and Jimmy to the end of time in robot bodies to face the boss, its heavily implied she is way stronger than both of them and she delivers the killing blow ). But this gets disregarded and instead is presented as an example of "damsel in distress on a recent game". Its sneaky and biased when that happens.
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:50:53 amConsidering other reactions in this thread, and the video linked, I very much doubt it.Well, you're the only person talking about her ripping people off, though. I mean, I think Arpa is being facetious but I dunno.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amNo they didn't and yes it does. They're fucking rape caves. It's unbelievable that people thought it was a good idea, and other people approved it, all the way down the line. It's absolutely fucking bonkers that it exists in a mainstream game. It's the stuff of creepy internet pervert's nightmares.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amReally. You know the mindset of an entire industry, because of what a PR firm did on a game written by a woman, and apparently very good about this shit by all accounts? BULLSHIT. You're fitting the facts to your own pre-defined conclusion.Again, I'm not talking about the game. I'm talking about what the PR reps were saying. The game itself is actually pretty irrelevant to the discussion. And my conclusion is simply that "wow that's pretty fucked up that the PR reps are suggesting that men can't sympathize with a female character without wanting to protect them; that men can't simply play as a female character and instead have to be coerced into being their guardian, holy fuck balls what is this shit."Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amWell....Good enough...?No? The one video that has been released focuses on a very narrow area, and future ones will likely expand on other areas. She's not being any more biased than anyone else who makes videos like this.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 amIt was 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games and examine them to figure out shit about gender in games', not 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games, ignore half of them, and edit together a video that proves my point'.Unless she talks about literally everything relating to women in games (in 20 minutes, mind), then there is gonna be stuff left out. Going by the first video, she will probably continue to explore these subjects but she will of course not be able to cover everything. But she doesn't have to, and she is under no obligation to do so. Posted: March 10, 2013, 04:05:59 amIced said, March 10, 2013, 03:54:06 amHer main examples were Zelda, Mario and Star fox?! What the heck?I don't see what's so weird about focusing on the two biggest franchises with damsels in them. Star Fox was more about the sad story of how a cool new game was retrofitted into a Star Fox game and reduced the hero into an object.but she should still have covered more stuff!
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:03:25 amThey're fucking rape caves. It's unbelievable that people thought it was a good idea, and other people approved it, all the way down the line. It's absolutely fucking bonkers that it exists in a mainstream game. It's the stuff of creepy internet pervert's nightmares.This is seriously the first time I have heard of anyone having a problem with it. Of course it was disgusting and horrible and horrible-to-women. That was the point. The caves had boobs, for fuck's sake! You can't be thinking they meant that seriously!Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:03:25 amAgain, I'm not talking about the game. I'm talking about what the PR reps were saying. The game itself is actually pretty irrelevant to the discussion. And my conclusion is simply that "wow that's pretty fucked up that the PR reps are suggesting that men can't sympathize with a female character without wanting to protect them; that men can't simply play as a female character and instead have to be coerced into being their guardian, holy fuck balls what is this shit."PR repsentire gaming industrySEE THE DIFFERENCE?Your argument is invalid until you have actual misogynistic game developers. Marketing being bullshit is marketing being bullshit, not gaming being bullshit. Everyone knows marketing for EVERYTHING is bullshit.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:03:25 amNo? The one video that has been released focuses on a very narrow area, and future ones will likely expand on other areas. She's not being any more biased than anyone else who makes videos like this.She sure seems to be to a whole lot of people and has through this entire process. If she ends up proving me wrong, I'd be very, very happy about that. But she won't.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:03:25 amUnless she talks about literally everything relating to women in games (in 20 minutes, mind), then there is gonna be stuff left out. Going by the first video, she will probably continue to explore these subjects but she will of course not be able to cover everything. But she doesn't have to, and she is under no obligation to do so.She is under an obligation to be fair and ethical. Everyone is. Especially given that she took people's money.EDIT: Also you didn't comment on the cats. :|
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:08:59 amThis is seriously the first time I have heard of anyone having a problem with it.... seriously? It was a pretty big deal.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:08:59 amOf course it was disgusting and horrible and horrible-to-women. That was the point. The caves had boobs, for fuck's sake! You can't be thinking they meant that seriously!No one thinks they meant it seriously. But it doesn't really matter if they meant it to be serious or not: the end result is one that is profoundly disturbing and fucked up. You can have terrible things happen to women, but when you have women in rape caves being violently killed by their rape babies, there is a big fucking problem.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:08:59 amPR repsentire gaming industrySEE THE DIFFERENCE?I didn't say that PR reps are the entire gaming industry. I said their marketing was emblematic of the problems the entire industry has with women. It doesn't matter if "everyone knows marketing is bullshit". That's no fucking excuse to their insane regressive shit.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:08:59 amShe is under an obligation to be fair and ethical. Everyone is. Especially given that she took people's money.And she is being fair and ethical. She's focusing on things that she's interested in. Things which she told people straight up that she would focus on. There's no scam going on here.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:08:59 amEDIT: Also you didn't comment on the cats. :|I don't know what the deal with that cats was
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:03:25 amI don't see what's so weird about focusing on the two biggest franchises with damsels in them. Star Fox was more about the sad story of how a cool new game was retrofitted into a Star Fox game and reduced the hero into an object.but she should still have covered more stuff!That was my point. she went for the really fucking obvious targets.Those are series where the damsel in distress bit is by now a staple and as such can be pretty much sure to have something like that going on. It would be like covering a resident evil game and be critical of it for having zombies, or covering a disney princess fairy tale movie and be critical of all the princesses going on.But did she cover the peach game where mario gets kidnapped? No, if she did she would probably have complained about peach four powers being tied to emotions because that means peach is a silly girl. She didnt even cover the Mario rpg games where peach is part of your party. She was even critical of women never trying to escape and missed the Paper Marios where peach is playable after every mario mission, where she is escaping the castle and helping mario from afar.She went for the really obvious picks, (and star fox , since it was such an obvious example of heroine turned into fodder). And then she tried to cobble some kind of example out of that with the mario dressed peach and link dressed zelda.So tell me, why did she ignore all of those and instead only focused on whatever proved her trope? Why not going for the outliers? Why not even showing the evolution that games using those tropes have taken over the years?
Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:18:37 amThose are series where the damsel in distress bit is by now a staple and as such can be pretty much sure to have something like that going on. It would be like covering a resident evil game and be critical of it for having zombiesThere's a difference between zombies and potentially regressive stereotypes. And Nintendo, for one, hasn't been content with the standard damsel role, and has tried to make the damsels have more influence on the story. And that's good.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:18:37 amBut did she cover the peach game where mario gets kidnapped? No, if she did she would probably have complained about peach four powers being tied to emotions because that means peach is a silly girl.She made a quick mention of it and said she would get back to it, but never did. Maybe that part was kidnapped by Bowser! Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:18:37 amSo tell me, why did she ignore all of those and instead only focused on whatever proved her trope? Why not going for the outliers? Why not even showing the evolution that games using those tropes have taken over the years?I don't know, I'm not her. I hope that she will talk about the outliers in the next episode, with this one setting up the standards, but who knows.
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:15:43 amNo one thinks they meant it seriously. But it doesn't really matter if they meant it to be serious or not: the end result is one that is profoundly disturbing and fucked up. You have terrible things happen to women, but when you have women in rape caves being violently killed by their rape babies, there is a big fucking problem....So? Are we supposed to shy away from doing bad things to everyone in fiction because it's bad or might offend someone? Duke has always ripped off movies. This was satire on Alien and everything it spawned and how ridiculous it was. It wasn't torture porn. I really don't see why anyone would care unless they missed the point and took it at face value.This reminds me of the time I got banned from an IRC channel for making insane statements about Nazis and the holocaust to show a person who meant his less insane but still pretty insane statements seriously how absolutely ridiculously unacceptably horrendous they were. It was an exaggeration of the sort of thing that has gone on in bad sci-fi movies for years! Because they're ridiculous! And this is how we show people how ridiculous things are, by humorously exaggerating their worst traits!Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:15:43 amI didn't say that PR reps are the entire gaming industry. I said their marketing was emblematic of the problems the entire industry has with women. It doesn't matter if "everyone knows marketing is bullshit". That's no fucking excuse to their insane regressive shit.You're right. The marketing fiasco was unacceptable. Blaming problems with the marketing industry on the gaming industry is equally unacceptable.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:15:43 amAnd she is being fair and ethical. She's focusing on things that she's interested in. Things which she told people straight up that she would focus on. There's no scam going on here.Oh, I'm sorry, I said... and you thought... right. I don't think she set out to rip anyone off. I think some people might feel ripped off, but that's not the same thing. All I meant to say was that I hear people bitching about her ripping people off a lot and it gets old real quick--I don't think they're right, they're just loud. Sorry for the confusion.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:15:43 amI don't know what the deal with that cats wasI provided an example of a stereotype that does not exist for 'terrible, regressive reasons'. I thought it was quite clever. Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:18:37 amBut did she cover the peach game where mario gets kidnapped? No, if she did she would probably have complained about peach four powers being tied to emotions because that means peach is a silly girl. She didnt even cover the Mario rpg games where peach is part of your party. She was even critical of women never trying to escape and missed the Paper Marios where peach is playable after every mario mission, where she is escaping the castle and helping mario from afar.While I agree with everything else you said, peach being a silly girl in that game is worth complaining about imo.
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:26:56 am...So? Are we supposed to shy away from doing bad things to everyone in fiction because it's bad or might offend someone?Of course not. But there is a fairly well defined line between bad things happening to people and rape caves.I mean, I don't think it's impossible to do something like what DNF was trying to do, Alien(s) pulled off something similar as horror. But DNF's implementation of it was awful and dumb and fucked up.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:26:56 amYou're right. The marketing fiasco was unacceptable. Blaming problems with the marketing industry on the gaming industry is equally unacceptable.The marketing for games is part of the gaming industry. And I'm not blaming the entire game industry for anything, I'm merely saying that this kind of stuff happens and has happened in various parts of the entire industry, and it's something that needs to be dealt with.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:26:56 amI provided an example of a stereotype that does not exist for 'terrible, regressive reasons'. I thought it was quite clever.That's not really the kind of stereotype I meant. :|
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:22:57 amThere's a difference between zombies and potentially regressive stereotypes. And Nintendo, for one, hasn't been content with the standard damsel role, and has tried to make the damsels have more influence on the story. And that's good.So? That doesnt change it. You get a Mario game, you usually expect princesses to be rescued. You get a resident evil game, you expect zombies to be shot. Those are gaming artifacts and situations. You get a Metal gear game, you expect there to be sneaking. Just because "princesses" are of a certain gender it doesnt mean that a damsel in distress story is inherently evil or bad. Would it be better if the princess was a prince?These games have suffered evolution to work within the boundaries of the genres they set up to, but they still have those things going on. Do you really think there is something regressive about the Gerudos, a race of female warriors, kidnapping zelda and link having to save her? Is that a "regressive stereotype"? Because from my side it looks as an exageration where people are trying to get something to complain about, and not finding what they wanted to find, they just ignore the pieces that go against their wishes. Would you rather have a "gwen stacy death" adaptation end up with gwen letting spidey fall and while trying to rescue him snap his neck just because gender demands you to protect her from a regressive damsel in distress stereotype? Or can you accept that as a story piece it makes sense? Gaming abstractions man, you are saving a girl/a family member/whatever and you get invested in it because they humanize those gaming abstractions. You are killing a zombie and you get invested in how monstrous they are .QuoteI don't know, I'm not her. I hope that she will talk about the outliers in the next episode, with this one setting up the standards, but who knows.But the mario games and the zelda games are not the standarts. They are the outliers of one side.At least the way she presented them, you surely agree with what im saying?Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:26:56 amWhile I agree with everything else you said, peach being a silly girl in that game is worth complaining about imo.I havent played that game, i am not aware if peach is, or isnt, a silly girl, I was saying that with the way she presented those other things, she would find something to demerit peach saving mario by claiming it portrayed her gender in a negative manner.
Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:37:37 amSo? That doesnt change it. You get a Mario game, you usually expect princesses to be rescued.I know. I don't have a big problem with it as long as every game doesn't do it, which they don't. And like I was saying, the games (Zelda moreso) have evolved to make the damsel role less helpless and more proactive. And it's a good thing because it lets them have their cake and eat it too.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:37:37 amDo you really think there is something regressive about the Gerudos, a race of female warriors, kidnapping zelda and link having to save her? Is that a "regressive stereotype"?What? I don't even know where this is coming from. But no, I don't think it's regressive. I don't have that big of a problem with damsels in distress. And the gender of the kidnapper doesn't really matter.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:37:37 amWould you rather have a "gwen stacy death" adaptation end up with gwen letting spidey fall and while trying to rescue him snap his neck just because gender demands you to protect her from a regressive damsel in distress stereotype? Or can you accept that as a story piece it makes sense?Again. WHAT.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:37:37 amBut the mario games and the zelda games are not the standarts. They are the outliers of one side.At least the way she presented them, you surely agree with what im saying?They're the standards for recusing damsels-in-distress. And since that's the topic she was focusing on, it makes sense to highlight them. The outliers would be stuff like Monkey Island where the "damsel" is never in distress (except Curse I guess but that was all Guybrush's fault because he's so incompetent) or Mario RPG or even that terrible Zelda CDI game.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:37:37 amI havent played that game, i am not aware if peach is, or isnt, a silly girl, I was saying that with the way she presented those other things, she would find something to demerit peach saving mario by claiming it portrayed her gender in a negative manner.From what I remember she solves puzzles and fights by using superpowers derived from emotions and changing said emotions at the drop of a hat (eg, putting out fires by deluging them in a torrent of tears)It sounds really weird but since I never played it I can't really comment on it that well.
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:34:15 amOf course not. But there is a fairly well defined line between bad things happening to people and rape caves.I mean, I don't think it's impossible to do something like what DNF was trying to do, Alien(s) pulled off something similar as horror. But DNF's implementation of it was awful and dumb and fucked upIt was! Because its purpose was to say how fucked up other things like it are! It was a criticism in itself, and so criticizing it is stupid!Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:34:15 amThe marketing for games is part of the gaming industry. And I'm not blaming the entire game industry for anything, I'm merely saying that this kind of stuff happens and has happened in various parts of the entire industry, and it's something that needs to be dealt with. I disagree. Often completely separate PR firms are used. You also may want to read your original comment again, because you totally did say that and now you are backpedaling.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:34:15 amThat's not really the kind of stereotype I meant. :|I know! You were talking about stereotypes like they were all harmful. My point is that is not even close to true. Harmful stereotypes of course exist and we should combat them, but stereotypes as a concept are not a bad thing, and occasionally a useful thing.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:37:37 amJust because "princesses" are of a certain gender it doesnt mean that a damsel in distress story is inherently evil or bad. Would it be better if the princess was a prince?Yes, actually. The implication in media for years has been that women are helpless and need men to help them. That's what she's talking about. She's just picking her examples carefully to make it look like it's much more common in gaming than it is. 'Damsel in distress' might be a lazy plot tool, but it's only a real problem if it leads to gender inequality. We have a ton of strong female heroes and the occasional male in distress now, so I don't think it is much of a problem these days, though.And in response to things you said further down, yes, Gwen Stacy is a particularly bad example. It's the men with the power to save the women. It's a power imbalance. If Gwen had spider-powers and her mundane mortal boyfriend was in danger, and that happened just as often as the reverse, that'd be much better! Still lazy writing, but not discriminatory. Again, strong female heroes, and even that stupid Northstar's-husband bullshit exist now, so not as much of a problem now as it was in years past, or as much of a problem as she's making it out to be.Re: Peach, I haven't played it either, but I've seen how it was marketed and read reviews/info (the rom is in my roms folder I just haven't gotten to it yet) and it appears to be one of the more harmful gender portrayals I've encountered in gaming. Paper Mario was great though.Also, watching the video for myself now, will write things as they occur to me.Comments and likes disabled on the video? The video already reuploaded by someone else with comments enabled because they take issue with her censorship? Yeah, fuck her just on principle.Starfox Adventures: Probably had a lot more to do with the selling power of an existing IP than anything to do with women. Nintendo has no problem with strong female characters, what with Samus and the whole Sheik thing.Five minutes in. *hits post now*EDIT: She's not wrong about Mario but it's kind of silly to have problems with something with such a simplistic and archetypal plot. That's part of its charm. Those games don't have real stories. I notice the omission of the Mario RPGs. EDIT2: Is she seriously making her entire case on games this old? Simplistic stories + decades ago = stereotypes. This isn't shocking or problematic. Now that games have longer, more intricate stories, and don't have to be boiled down to 'protagonist does a thing', we get much better treatment of EVERYTHING. Where is the talk of Portal? :<Hell, where is the talk of Shadow of the Colossus? She could rip on that legitimately.EDIT3: Did she really have to mention young, straight, boys and men? Come on. You can't seriously fault people 20+ years ago for not catering to the gay audience. If she was talking about modern games, fine, but NES/SNES/Genesis? That's ridiculous. I also don't see any mention of the tons of iconic platformers that DON'T fall into this pattern, like Sonic or Megaman, or even Streets of Rage or Golden Axe where you could play as women, and fought against women?EDIT4: Really? Using the babe from Crash 1, and no mention of how that wasn't a plot point in later games as the narrative became more fleshed out, or mentioning the positive portrayal of Coco later on?EDIT5: That OoT ad is fucking heinous EDIT6: Why are you bitching about remakes don't do that why are you dumb
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:48:35 amIt was! Because its purpose was to say how fucked up other things like it are! It was a criticism in itself, and so criticizing it is stupid!I really, really can't see the rape caves being some subversive commentary on the nature of sexual violence done to women. Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:48:35 amI disagree. Often completely separate PR firms are used. You also may want to read your original comment again, because you totally did say that and now you are backpedaling.It doesn't matter how connected the marketing was to the game itself. The fact that it happened is all that matters.And no, I did in no way blame this on the entire game industry. I said it was emblematic of the issues that are going on in it.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 04:48:35 amI know! You were talking about stereotypes like they were all harmful. My point is that is not even close to true. Harmful stereotypes of course exist and we should combat them, but stereotypes as a concept are not a bad thing, and occasionally a useful thing.Racial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.
Jmorphman, you said that that mario and zelda were using regressive stereotypes so I asked why.I dont see the confusioniced said:Those are series where the damsel in distress bit is by now a staple and as such can be pretty much sure to have something like that going on. It would be like covering a resident evil game and be critical of it for having zombies jmm said:There's a difference between zombies and potentially regressive stereotypes.QuoteWhat? I don't even know where this is coming from. But no, I don't think it's regressive.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:54:37 amRacial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.Fucking speciest. Why are your issues more important than ours?Die Human Scum.
