Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:58:55 amJmorphman, you said that that mario and zelda were using regressive stereotypes so I asked why.I said potentially regressive. I also said I don't personally find them to be regressive, and that they can be tweaked to be more proactive.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:58:55 amI dont see the confusionYou were bringing up a bunch of unrelated examples that didn't have much to do with anything.
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:54:37 amRacial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.So you think that the stereotype that females are muscularly weaker than men is harmful ?
maximilianjenus said, March 10, 2013, 05:06:34 amSo you think that the stereotype that females are muscularly weaker than men is harmful ?That's not a stereotype, that's human anatomy.
maximilianjenus said, March 10, 2013, 05:11:54 ambut there are some females that are stronger than some males, how is that human anatomy ?Their muscles are bigger/stronger/I don't know how muscles work.A better question would be how is that a stereotype?
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:54:37 amI really, really can't see the rape caves being some subversive commentary on the nature of sexual violence done to women. Why not? That's exactly what it was. o_oOverman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:54:37 amIt doesn't matter how connected the marketing was to the game itself. The fact that it happened is all that matters.And no, I did in no way blame this on the entire game industry. I said it was emblematic of the issues that are going on in it.'It doesn't matter that this wasn't connected to the game, it's all the gaming industry's fault, because something unrelated to the gaming industry is a clear indication of lots of problems that I will provide no other indication of but will continue to insist exist in the absence of valid data points.'Yeah, go fuck yourself.Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 04:54:37 amRacial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.Is the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?I don't think so. I think it's only harmful when you act like stereotypes must be conformed to, or that people who don't fall into them are bad.EDIT IN RESPONSE TO LATEST JMORPH POST:The definition of a stereotype is 'A conventional or formulaic conception or image'. We usually see buff men and lithe women. Therefore, that is a stereotype. Stereotype doesn't equal bad, please stop using it like it does.
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:13:32 ammaximilianjenus said, March 10, 2013, 05:11:54 ambut there are some females that are stronger than some males, how is that human anatomy ?Their muscles are bigger/stronger/I don't know how muscles work.A better question would be how is that a stereotype?So do you mean, how is a fact that is statistically true a significative amount of time a stereotype ?Quotesomething conforming to a fixed or general pattern;
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:13:44 amWhy not? That's exactly what it was. o_oUh, OK. It's a very odd reading of that entire sequence, and one that not a lot of people would agree with, but that's fine.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:13:44 am'It doesn't matter that this wasn't connected to the game, it's all the gaming industry's fault, because something unrelated to the gaming industry is a clear indication of lots of problems that I will provide no other indication of but will continue to insist exist in the absence of valid data points.'Yeah, go fuck yourself.Woah, OK. :|Well you can go fuck yourself for continuing to misrepresent what I said! The marketing of a game is in no way independent of the game industry. It's ludicrous to pretend that there is some magic barrier separating the promotion of a game and the game itself. The game industry has problems with women; so does the industries of movies, comic books, and pretty much everything because our entire society has issues with women. And I already provided two examples, do you want more? How about Harley Quinn's outfit in Injustice? Or that Star Fox thing mentioned in the video? Or Metroid: Other M? Or Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball? Or a thousand other things?Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:13:44 amIs the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?No, because that ain't a stereotype.maximilianjenus said, March 10, 2013, 05:17:54 amSo do you mean, how is a fact that is statistically true a significative amount of time a stereotype ?It's... not. What exactly are you trying to do here?
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:03:25 amIced said, March 10, 2013, 04:58:55 amJmorphman, you said that that mario and zelda were using regressive stereotypes so I asked why.I said potentially regressive. I also said I don't personally find them to be regressive, and that they can be tweaked to be more proactive.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:58:55 amI dont see the confusionYou were bringing up a bunch of unrelated examples that didn't have much to do with anything.if they can be tweaked to be more proactive, they are being in some part regressive. The bunch of examples I used were the gerudos in zelda( one of the games shown as regressive ) and a classic storyline being changed so that it doesnt present a "regressive stereotype". I used the examples to show that a classic storyline having stereotypes isnt a bad thing and that changing them just because someone is afraid of using "regressive stereotypes" can ruin them. Compare classic videogames like Double Dragon to classic comic book storylines. Now do a remake of them in modern eras, you can change some points here and there to make them more interesting, but you got to keep somethings to remain within the same story. She criticized Double Dragon and Double Dragon Neon while ignoring Marian shifts between the games. Marian was seen as a reward and serving nothing else to the story other than that reward ( after all you fight your bro in the end for her affection! ) , but removing her from that position would make an entirely different game that wouldnt be a remake to begin with. Should Double dragon be changed so that Marian isnt the motivation of the quest in order to be less regressive?Snakebyte, the rape caves were hella dumb. they were going for a parody of the genre, but somewhere along the way it become disgusting. It almost started taking itself serious in its power fantasy parody.You knittahs wont stop posting! Ive been trying to post this for a ton of time but its always " a reply has been posted" BAH!
Iced said, March 10, 2013, 05:24:54 amI used the examples to show that a classic storyline having stereotypes isnt a bad thing and that changing them just because someone is afraid of using "regressive stereotypes" can ruin them.Oh. I didn't really see the Gerudo's capturing Zelda to be ruinous to anything, because why not? A good story and game could be made out of that.Iced said, March 10, 2013, 05:24:54 amCompare classic videogames like Double Dragon to classic comic book storylines. Now do a remake of them in modern eras, you can change some points here and there to make them more interesting, but you got to keep somethings to remain within the same story.And that's basically what the last few Zelda games have done, have "rescuing Zelda" be the goal, but changing and tweaking it to make Zelda a more proactive character. I dunno if that makes the older games regressive, but it certainly makes Zelda a more interesting character.
Iced said, March 10, 2013, 05:24:54 amShould Double dragon be changed so that Marian isnt the motivation of the quest in order to be less regressive?It's funny because the movie and the SNK fighter (which lifted ideas from said movie) didn't have Marian as the motivation. In fact Marian is changed from being a damsel in distress to being one of the fighters. Same thing in the really bad Double Dragon cartoon.Don't think it helps in this conversation, but it is worth pointing out.
Yeah they werent remakes, the movie had barely any connection.There was also the genesis beat em up that made almost no sense.
The only thing I gotta say is that Resident Evil is a series that pretty much defines gender equality. Nearly every game in the main series either stars or co-stars(with equal importance) women that are as equal or superior to their male counterparts. Even Resident Evil 4, which stars Leon by himself, has TWO modes you can unlock that feature Ada Wong and her importance to the game. Leon wouldn't have survived without her.And the clip Anita decided to use is Ashley screaming "Help me Leon!".
For Double Dragon, maybe they could do something like Art of Fighting (where Yuri trains to be a fighter after her ordeal in the first game)? That might be cool, I dunno.Caddie said, March 10, 2013, 05:36:45 amNearly every game in the main series either stars or co-stars(with equal importance) women that are as equal or superior to their male counterparts.CLAIRE >>>> LEON100% TRUE FACT AND I WILL FIGHT ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:23:11 amWoah, OK. :|Well you can go fuck yourself for continuing to misrepresent what I said! The marketing of a game is in no way independent of the game industry. It's ludicrous to pretend that there is some magic barrier separating the promotion of a game and the game itself. The game industry has problems with women; so does the industries of movies, comic books, and pretty much everything because our entire society has issues with women. And I already provided two examples, do you want more? How about Harley Quinn's outfit in Injustice? Or that Star Fox thing mentioned in the video? Or Metroid: Other M? Or Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball? Or a thousand other things?But... There is? Different people, different teams, different companies. The marketing of games has more in common with the marketing of toys and movies and books than it does with the development of any of those things. I agree with most of the rest of what you said (aside from that Star Fox thing being more about brand recognition than gender, and Harley looks great dammit, don't mess with my Harley )Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:23:11 amSnakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:13:44 amIs the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?No, because that ain't a stereotype.You missed my edit, I think.QuoteEDIT IN RESPONSE TO LATEST JMORPH POST:The definition of a stereotype is 'A conventional or formulaic conception or image'. We usually see buff men and lithe women. Therefore, that is a stereotype. Stereotype doesn't equal bad, please stop using it like it does.So, yes, it is. So is a man with muscles and a woman without. So is an aloof cat and a happy slobbery dumb dog. So is a farmer in overalls. So is a redneck with a shotgun and a car in his lawn. A lot of these things are just frequently true. Something can't be negative/discriminatory if it's true, problems only arise when we assume it's always true and discriminate as if it is. I'm allowed to be surprised at well-dressed farmers, but not to ban all farmers from my clothing store because they clearly only buy overalls and the overall store is that way!Iced said, March 10, 2013, 04:58:55 amSnakebyte, the rape caves were hella dumb. they were going for a parody of the genre, but somewhere along the way it become disgusting. It almost started taking itself serious in its power fantasy parody.It was supposed to be disgusting! It wouldn't be effectively parodic/critical if it wasn't!
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:40:24 amDifferent people, different teams, different companies. The marketing of games has more in common with the marketing of toys and movies and books than it does with the development of any of those things.But it is part of the game industry; it is not a totally independent thing. It was done for a game. And the marketing had to be approved by the people in charge.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:40:24 amThe definition of a stereotype is 'A conventional or formulaic conception or image'. We usually see buff men and lithe women. Therefore, that is a stereotype. Stereotype doesn't equal bad, please stop using it like it does.I've been talking about a specific set of stereotypes, racial and sexual ones. The kind that are referred to when using the word stereotype in most cases. And they are bad, and harmful. And also pretty unrelated to the rest of the discussion.
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:44:39 amBut it is part of the game industry; it is not a totally independent thing. It was done for a game. And the marketing had to be approved by the people in charge.That's not always the case, no. Paying a marketing firm is different from choosing everything yourself. And 'the people in charge' are publishers, not developers. The important people are the ones CREATING the games. DoA especially is an incredibly valid criticism and Itagaki is a womanizing fuck, but this isn't and Rhianna Pratchett isn't. I have a replica of Cole's messenger bag from Infamous 2. If it was made shoddily, would it be valid as an example of shoddy worksmanship in the game industry? IT WAS DONE FOR A GAME!Come on. :<Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:44:39 amI've been talking about a specific set of stereotypes, racial and sexual ones. The kind that are referred to when using the word stereotype in most cases. And they are bad, and harmful. And also pretty unrelated to the rest of the discussion. BACKPEDALLER!Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 03:05:23 amStereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)If you are using the word 'stereotypes' to refer to negative, harmful, bigoted stereotypes only, you are using the word incorrectly, like I have been saying since the very first time you used the word. Please stop. :<
Overman King Jmorphman said, March 10, 2013, 05:23:11 ammaximilianjenus said, March 10, 2013, 05:17:54 amSo do you mean, how is a fact that is statistically true a significative amount of time a stereotype ?It's... not. What exactly are you trying to do here?I just wanted to make you say that stereotypes are not what is defined as a stereotype, thanks for your cooperation, I can abandon the topic now.
Caddie said, March 10, 2013, 05:36:45 amAnd the clip Anita decided to use is Ashley screaming "Help me Leon!".But Ashley can take care of herself!
Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:50:32 amAnd 'the people in charge' are publishers, not developers.Oh so they're independent from the game industry too?Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:50:32 ambut this isn't and Rhianna Pratchett isn't.I don't know why you keep bringing up Tomb Raider: The Game, because I have been talking about Tomb Raider: The Marketing Experience. As an example of the way the game industry sometimes treats women badly. That's literally it.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:50:32 amBACKPEDALLERYou keep using that and you should probably ease up on it, so when you encounter someone who is actually backpedaling, it will have more impact.Snakebyte said, March 10, 2013, 05:50:32 amIf you are using the word 'stereotypes' to refer to negative, harmful, bigoted stereotypes only, you are using the word incorrectly.This whole topic is about harmful stereotypes; it's about gender stereotypes in games! What else would I possibly have been referring to?maximilianjenus said, March 10, 2013, 05:55:52 amI just wanted to make you say that stereotypes are not what is defined as a stereotype, thanks for your cooperation, I can abandon the topic now.So you wanted me to say that stereotypes are not what you think stereotypes are, which isn't actually the definition of stereotypes, because stereotypes are not based on facts, but rather beliefs? OK, well have fun with all that. :|
