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Re: Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test?

 December 11, 2014, 01:07:38 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test? (Started by Speedy9199 December 10, 2014, 10:56:57 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Umezono said, December 11, 2014, 12:51:31 am
Jesuszilla said, December 11, 2014, 12:00:59 am
MUGEN utilizes a finite state machine. Now that I reminded you of that, go Google it and think about why your post is stupid.

This discussion does not make you look like any better of a coder. I think every time you make a stupid thread like this, it just shows how insecure you are with your own creations because everybody here knows they were bad and the way you took feedback was bad. You make threads and posts with very little thought behind them on theories that really don't have much practicality in terms of how they could be used in MUGEN in order to seek validation and cover your own flaws.
This will absolutely not be tolerated. Nothing in this thread gave you license to personal attack. Kamekaze was respectful and articulate in why the experiment flawed whereas you are throwing unrelated ad hominems and being downright malicious when the intent of the thread nowhere near justifies it.

Don't do this again.

Jesuszilla does that every once and awhile in my threads in the past but I learned not to "hate" on him for doing so. His comments to me seem more like "fan comments"(even haters can be fans) if he didn't like me and showed no interest in me then he wouldn't post at all in my threads even if they are negative.(Just getting that out there for Jesuszilla) BTW I still and forever will hate it that you cannot know for sure the tone of voice someone has on message boards.

@Kamekaze I'll take your word on mugen ai and the turing test and I will try out your advanced AI for your characters.  :)
    

Re: Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test?

 December 11, 2014, 12:46:55 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test? (Started by Speedy9199 December 10, 2014, 10:56:57 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Jesuszilla said, December 11, 2014, 12:26:48 am
To ruin your thread would imply it was a good one from the beginning. It wasn't.


Again, Google what a finite state machine is, and you will understand how limited they are and how they could never possibly pass a Turing test. This thread is stupid and you showed little thought behind it and merely wanted yet another theoretical discussion to try to make yourself look good, which, mind you, is all you do these days, so that only strengthens my point.

I already knew that mugen is a state machine language before the creation of this thread. Alright, maybe I shouldn't have used the term "Turing Test" in this thread and should have just asked "Is there any mugen AIs that have human like behavior and mention the experiment I did." If you are going to go ape shit because I mentioned Turing Test and have to edit your post(which was an okay post) to talk more shit about me after what I said in my second post you need calm down or leave the internet for awhile... >_>
    

Re: Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test?

 December 11, 2014, 12:19:33 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test? (Started by Speedy9199 December 10, 2014, 10:56:57 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Jesuszilla said, December 11, 2014, 12:00:59 am
MUGEN utilizes a finite state machine. Now that I reminded you of that, go Google it and see its relevance to Turing machines.

This discussion does not make you look like any better of a coder. I think every time you make a stupid thread like this, it just shows how insecure you are with your own creations because everybody here knows they were bad and the way you took feedback was bad. So you make threads and posts with very little thought behind them on theories that really don't have much practicality in terms of how they could be used in MUGEN in order to seek validation and cover your own flaws.

Are you serious... when writing that post I thought I wouldn't have to say something like "I am not trying to make myself look good" and I thought people wouldn't see something like that. Apparently not but apparently it does. :(  Anyway am I suppose to feel "hurt" by that comment? Well I don't and it was unneeded, at least everything after the first two sentences.  :S

Anyway the main point of this thread was to explain what I did and wanted to know if there are other mugen characters that have the most human like behavior.

Don't ruin my thread.
    

Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test?

 December 10, 2014, 10:56:57 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in Can mugen AIs pass the Turing test? (Started by Speedy9199 December 10, 2014, 10:56:57 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
There is something in computer science from a man named Alan Turing stating that if you can trick a human into thinking an AI is human, the AI is considered good and it passes this test.

wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

I've worked long and hard to try and get my characters' AI to be as human as possible so I did an experiment similar to the Turing test with a bit of a "twist". I showed my friends in the computer science department of my college mugen and put mugen in watch mode. Then I selected two of my characters and I pretended to play and control player 1 and did not press ctrl + 1. So as the rounds were happening I was pressing buttons on my computer to make it look convincing that I was playing. When round 3 started and during the fight I took my hands off the keyboard and showed that it was really an AI only match. Then I asked if they thought I was really playing, they said yes and I was able to trick everyone I showed that to. So I then took my experiment a step further and showed my computer science teachers all with PhDs (10 years of education) mugen and repeated the process with each teacher individually. -I was able to trick all of them -.

The only problem of the experiment was that only one of my fellow computer science classmates knew what mugen was prior to showing him this test. Most of the classmates and teachers did not know what mugen AI is typically like (mostly cheap and robotic and inhuman) but they were unable to find any very robotic and/or inhuman AI patterns that would give it away that I am "tricking" them or question if truly a human is playing. So after doing this experiment I "guess" my character AIs pass the Turing test or at least my own experiment.

Are there any other mugen characters out there created by you or someone else that if you did or feel like doing this experiment the mugen AI would pass the Turing test or at least my experiment?
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 November 11, 2014, 09:13:07 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Bea said, November 11, 2014, 07:37:46 pm
Computers are pretty bad when it comes to floating point mathematics.
All the current implementations (float, double, quadruple) tend to sacrifice precision for range, so you can't properly represent exact real numbers in them.
I had some hilarious situations due to that, as C# defaults floating point values as doubles and I had some float values.
Suddenly, 0.01 was different from 0.01, as one was float and the other double. XD
Never again I forgot to cast numbers when comparing them.

It is fascinating and fun stuff.

It usually depends on the types of numbers you use. For floats any even number works very well in the decimal 0,2,4,6,8,10, if it's odd it works not as well 1,3,5,7,9, and if it is odd and prime it does wacky things 3,5,7. Also for the number 2, since it is basically the one of a kind number that is even AND prime you might have to work "around" somethings when using it.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 November 11, 2014, 07:09:30 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
My previous post was not meant to be too harsh BTW...

Renzo F said, November 11, 2014, 06:32:35 pm
Also, I don't know what the fuck does computer limitations have to do with learning math.

Computer limitations can in fact do something about learning math. When you learn binary or hexadecimal you will learn not all numbers "work" the same way as in normal. In a way you are learning a different math, for example in the language java if you do (.1 + .2 -.3) it will not equal zero but rather 5.7525e-15 or something like that. It does this because in that language the computer cannot calculate the decimal .3 well. So limitations and problems on a computer can teach you things.

    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 November 11, 2014, 06:11:38 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am
But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am
What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you. >:(

I wish I saw this post before. What kind of talk is that!? It is perfectly ok to say math is hard and be a "wimp" at it because it IS HARD. Even if he read all the math books in the world there are TONS of things in math that are just fucking impossible or take a really long time. Computers were invented to help speed up this process but even then there are things that a computer can't do like calculate irrational numbers, square root of 2, pie, e without truncating it or rounding it. And when a computer can't calculate it you know you're FUCKED if you try to do so. Also you have to take into account all the undefined things in which at this point in time it is IMPOSSIBLE to figure out the true answer like 0/0, 0^0 which also make contradictions in math.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 28, 2014, 10:05:26 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Cyanide said, October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

You know what wasn't useful? Quadratic equations, and for that matter, reverse quadratic equations. They couldn't even supply a real world situation for these. Nor could they do so for algebra. Trig they managed it. Mostly though you can get through life with plus, minus, divide and multiply.


About the quadratic, they "have to" teach it because of stuff like this, I'm sure you are aware of. (X+2)^2 or (X+2)(X+2). Which equals X^2 + 4x + 4 which equals something in the middle. When doing long calculations with different equations all tied into each other (even in mugen I have found) you will most likely run into something like this (a set of values multiplied by another set). You will know when you run into this problem because you will code something that has a problem, and when you go and fix the problem another thing previously working correctly will not work correctly. You will come to the conclusion that your values have to be "something in the middle" to satisfy both conditions. So in a way something like going from this X^2 + 4x + 4 to this (X+2)(X+2) is happening when in math you learn that sometimes you need to simply "guess" numbers to get (X+2)^2. Using the quadratic you can fuck guessing and sometimes the variables in the polynomial can get so complex (x does not have to be an integer) that you have no choice but to use quadratic and even THAT might not be enough....

What I said is from my coding experience. The situation I described might not be exactly whats going on BUT looking at my coding there is a strong feeling behind the coding something like foiling and unfoiling is going on.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 27, 2014, 06:03:07 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Cyanide said, October 26, 2014, 06:32:53 am
I always hated math. I would have dropped it when i was 12 if it had been an option (it wasn't). Since leaving college, if i had not been involved in mugen i would NEVER have touched trigonometry at all. I used pythagoras once, and once only. I have never yet used quadratic equations, they've been 100% useless and we spent months on the fuckers.

Math in school is fine if it gets practical applications. It didn't. Learn this shit by rote, it will never be useful in your life.

Even though a decent amount of mugen contains algebra the way i was taught it was pretty much bullshit and mugen's methodology for it has been far more understandable to me. (yes i had shit math teachers)

Careful Cyanide, even though a lot of the math seems completely useless, sometimes you have to know that stuff. For example, the imaginary number i. When people first learn about this it makes their head explode. How can a number be imaginary, how can it even exsist and why do I even have to know? From my mugen coding experience, YES, you do have to know about it.

I was using the distance formula for a velocity: ((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2)^.5 and every once and a while a debug error would happen saying there was something wrong with the exponent. I found out the times I was getting the error, I was actually getting i, a negative square root! Computers hate imaginary numbers and by learning imaginary numbers I knew how to "kill" it by turning what was in the square root to a positive number using absolute value. In math the ONLY way to stop this problem is to use this solution, so you have to know things like this sometimes.

BTW- Yes, imaginary numbers and "i" DO exsist.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 18, 2014, 01:05:28 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
Jesuszilla said, October 18, 2014, 12:08:30 am
UT has one of the top CS programs in America and we weren't required to take physics courses. We ARE required to take upper-division math courses, but we get to choose what we take (I personally chose matrix calculations).

Physics is strongly tied into math but there are some things math alone cannot answer. I brought up having to know physics sometimes because I recently came across something like this in mugen:

You fire a projectile from a cannon (in real life or even with mugen's artificial gravity) at any angle besides straight up (90 degrees). The cannon ball will of course come down because of gravity. When it comes down it WILL come down in the form of a parabola. A 100% PERFECT parabola, well at least half a parabola. AKA the little "arch" that forms. This happens to pretty much EVERY SINGLE object if it is launched somehow. To recreate this on a computer all you have to do is use some form of X^2. But the biggest question is, WHERE THE FUCK does this parabola come from in the first place? This parabola seems to come from NOWHERE and it is always just "there." I can understand it does this because of a force pushing down on it vertically (gravity). But it doesn't really explain why it is so "perfect" and why it is always just "there."



This kind of stuff is over looked because we are so used to seeing it in real life. Knowing math you can recreate this an a computer, but you will recreate it without "truly" knowing it.

I have talked to computer science friends who have taken up to calculus 3 and applied their knowledge of math to computers and NONE of them can answer this question because they have not taken high level physics classes.

My point: Sometimes you just GOT to know physics for things like this. However if my question is unanswerable at least you have to know how it works.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 17, 2014, 06:20:42 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 17, 2014, 05:58:05 pm
@jesuszilla: @vans:
you could say that knowing physics is also a requisite to make somethign of quality ,but recent findings on capcom games negate that statement.

About physics, most colleges in America(not sure about Japan) require anyone going into computer science to take one or two physics classes or for some strange reason chemistry(lol). So not all computer science people know a lot about physics. The company  would have to hire a person that graduated in physics to help do the gravity parts. But the thing is, physics (at least in America) is one of if not THE hardest majors to complete. It is hard to find someone like that. After all those people are basically going to school to be a rocket scientist. lol. Also it seems impossible with computer technology today to get A+ like physics for anything computer wise.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 17, 2014, 05:52:04 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
From using Algebra I have personally found that the distance formula ((X2-X1)^2 + (Y2-Y1)^2).5 is what could be one of the greatest formulas evar. At times it just seems to work like magic. This allows any type of movement to follow something no matter where it is.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 16, 2014, 11:57:16 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
A problem of not knowing higher level math is that you can only think of doing things of only what you know. Let me explain, if you only know algebra you would most likely NEVER have to or need to or even think of coding something that requires perfect circle rotation calculations which requires trigonometry. Simply because you do not know anything about it and it would not cross your mind to give your character something like that. If you know how a circle worked then you would be able to code it, giving you more options and abilities to give your character. In other words: A mugen character creator only knowing algebra = a character that has no relation to any circles, and if it does it probably is no where close to perfect.

Also I am aware that there are not many circle calculations in mugen characters but it IS possible using angle draw  which I have done before. and by the way it was mostly an example but hopefully you guys get the point.

Also if someone was able to make a calculation like this of what I said, I would like to see.
    

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 16, 2014, 06:40:57 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 16, 2014, 06:16:43 pm
bare minimum is algebra 1, there are other ways to do teh stuff that requires trigonometry; tho I know that calcules 2 has been used in mugen, especially when your port stuff from "complex" games.

But there are somethings in math you just can't get around or if you can it wouldn't be as good. For example in trigonometry sin(1X + Y) which creates a wavy line for movement or things like that. Algebra can't really do that unless you can make something move in a way that uses absolute value, which is not the same or as good in most cases.
    

The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Started by Speedy9199 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
I just what to get the opinion of people who code for mugen. What is the bare minimum of math a person should know to create for mugen? I know the more math the better but I am talking about only the bare minimum. In my opinion the bare minimum is trigonometry. I have found that this type of math works very well for mugen, because of PI, sin, cos, and tan. On sometimes rare occasions I have found that you might need to know basic calculus about limits, but it doesn't seem fully required to know that type of math. On even rarer or more difficult occasions you might need to know basic physics. I want your opinions.
    

Re: One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine"

 September 18, 2014, 03:16:09 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine" (Started by Speedy9199 September 17, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
 Board: Projects
Somethings I forgot to mention.

The Ultimate Jackpot is when you get four "7s". This is an instant kill to the machine and will have a special death animation filled with more explosions and fireworks which I haven't completed yet.

If you get 4 "bars" you will trigger the "free spin" bonus stage in which you can attack it normally to reduce its health. However it is still immune to F1 and F2 during this bonus.

I'd like to mention that many slot machines have "fixed combinations" for example:

7,bar,lemon
bar,grape,bell
orange,bell,bar

Those combinations are preloaded in the machine. It will randomly pick one set of them, some have more chances than others and the order will NEVER change resulting in seeing the same combinations in the same exact way over and over again. So it is only kind of "half" random.  Some Slot machines in real life do this to prevent even the luckiest of people from winning too much and to keep control over the player. Here are two examples from the games Bioshock and Borderlands2 that do something like this.

Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01LHh4OVLaM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkonllhnOmc

My slot machine has no preloaded and/or fixed combinations. Each spin from each column picks from a total of 9 different symbols at complete and true random. This includes the wheel bonus also. So sometimes you can be luckier one round and unluckier the other round, it does not have any control over your own luck.  :cool4:
    

Re: One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine"

 September 18, 2014, 12:56:12 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine" (Started by Speedy9199 September 17, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
 Board: Projects
DJ_HANNIBALROYCE said, September 17, 2014, 08:49:59 pm
Yea!
Cenobite 53 said, September 17, 2014, 08:44:41 pm
Intersting idea. I'm not a big fan of the sprites though. Many of them look very bad with their white border.
Maybe you could look for some game sprites of slot machines. AFAIK there are many slot machine Arcade Games where you could get much better resources.


http://www.spriters-resource.com/search/?q=slots Heres a few choices for slots....even a pokemon version(which would be f**** crazy if u chose this!). LOL

About a theme based slot machine, I was think about making more slot machines with a themes based on fighting games like street fighter, guilty gear, blazblue or melty blood etc just like theme based slot machines in real life and of course they will have their own slot machine gameplay. It's just that making a character like this requires TONS of variables and the variable calculations need to be perfect to determine winning combonations. Too bad you can only have 60 variables in mugen :(
    

Re: One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine"

 September 18, 2014, 12:23:21 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine" (Started by Speedy9199 September 17, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
 Board: Projects
-Red- said, September 18, 2014, 12:19:45 am
Nah, talking about minigame-like characters, for example the DDR minigame by P.o.t.S., heck, maybe even the slot machine character Neon Tiger made several years ago, I have yet to try that one.

lol a Slot machine character by Neon Tiger? How long ago was that? I have to credit you on a good memory because I don't remember a character like that. :P

Edit: You mean this character? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtqWAsMd_wg

My slot machine is nothing like that character. Even though my character uses hitdefs it is not the "If you get this combo from random this special attack happens" type character.
    

Re: One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine"

 September 18, 2014, 12:15:56 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine" (Started by Speedy9199 September 17, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
 Board: Projects
    

Re: One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine"

 September 18, 2014, 12:02:16 am View in topic context
 Posted by Speedy9199  in One of a kind character/bonus game: "The Slot Machine" (Started by Speedy9199 September 17, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
 Board: Projects
-Red- said, September 17, 2014, 11:58:28 pm
Speedy9199 said, September 17, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
-You cannot use attacks that give you invinciblity frames or else it will result in an "invalid" attack. And yes, this character "knows" when your character has invinciblity frames.

How can the slot machine know that?

If you win or lose each spin a hitdef hits you. If the player is still attacking when the hitdef is there and is not in a Movetype = H state it was mostly likely(I can't think of any other reason) there was a nothitby sctrl which Mugen can read the state. So it "knows" if you are using invinciblity frames.

Also I KNEW someone was going to ask me that, which also adds and shows how "different" this character is. One more thing, if you get "invalid" it "Voids all pays and plays"  ;) In other words no life is lost or gained.
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