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Design isn't about ticking boxes and going "how can a character deal with this or that"

^I don't understand how his approach makes any of that stuff not possible? Frame data is a good starting point to add new mechanics like the ones you are talking about. And they too require their own frame data.

What he's saying here can be applied to SF, CVS2, JoJo, Guilty Gear, etc

You're just mentioning more options that the developer can add and they'd still need the same info. How much meter does x attack give to the burst meter, how many active ticks are the burst, etc...

The biggest advantage of using frame data/accurate data (and I am not belittling the topic creator, if anything I support his points) is that the average mugen creators creates horrible frame data that completely ruins general gameplay and using a game as reference makes a tremendous difference.

I must not fully understand your ACT then. I thought it was the number of frames after the attack. I'm using your excel sheet mind you. I like this idea. I hope I didn't come off negative. I was merely trying to give a bit of feedback. Thank you for sharing this.

For example Ryu's Light Punch.

DUR = 12
IMP = 4
ACT = 6

But I can get the same info by counting ticks and more.

frame 1 =3
frame 2 =3 attack frame
frame 3 =3
frame 4 =3

and some of us have already played/mugenized from several accurate sources and have no reason to read through the topic.

I like this for the most part. I think I'll use it to collect the data for my own character. 1 thing I don't see a big use for here though is the DUR IMP and ACT. For playing fighting games this is useful but if a person is going for more accuracy they'll be counting the ticks of every frame of animation. Unless this part is more for the players and not the creators. For creation purposes it's sort of redundant.

I think you've kinda misunderstood me here; I don't have anything wrong with frame data being used. I'm trying to illustrate a principle.

What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't be overengineering things. Players can do amazingly creative things with well-designed systems - and badly-designed ones too - but if you make it so that the only things that are possible are the things you want to be, you stifle that creativity and end up with a sterile game.

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      Posted: August 15, 2012, 06:22:51 am
If you get things right at the fundamental system level, give your characters options, and fix things that are causing trouble, the specifics won't matter anywhere near as much. There are plenty of games around with weird quirks that haven't suffered from them (Jojo, CvS2, the more adventurous KoF games...).

(character limits, heh)

Just No Point said, August 15, 2012, 03:30:20 am

I like this for the most part. I think I'll use it to collect the data for my own character. 1 thing I don't see a big use for here though is the DUR IMP and ACT. For playing fighting games this is useful but if a person is going for more accuracy they'll be counting the ticks of every frame of animation. Unless this part is more for the players and not the creators. For creation purposes it's sort of redundant.

Gonna have to agree with this. While I'm not going to debate the usefulness of the spreadsheet, the IMP values are kind of redundant when it comes to creating stuff for mugen. The only real purpose I can see for this is if someone was making a character from scratch (Lets just say Reu's Dragonclaw or Seanaltly's Squall as arbitrary examples, as they have never appeared in a 2D fighting game outside of MUGEN) and wanted to calculate the frame data to give players an overall feel of character's moves without having to dig through his state files and calculate the framedata manually.

I could be mistaken, but I'm sure that the DUR & ACT values are used in calculating the frame dis/advantage (since no parameter for recovery frames exists, I'm assuming it's calculating this value by subtracting from the total duration).

Aside from compiling framedata for users, it can give the author an idea of how safe/unsafe a move is (disregarding hitvels and the like, of course) especially if the character itself is from scratch or the author otherwise doesn't have access to source game's frame data (above Dragonclaw/Squall example). Irregardless, I know this is something I'll be using.

[state, recover]
type = changestate
trigger1 = power = [1750,9999]
trigger1 = time = 20
trigger2 = power = [1500,1749]
trigger2 = time = 22
trigger3 = power = [1250,1499]
trigger3 = time = 24
trigger4 = power = [1000,1249]
trigger4 = time = 26
trigger5 = power = [750, 999]
trigger5 = time = 28
trigger6 = power = [500, 699]
trigger6 = time = 30
trigger7 = power = [250, 499]
trigger7 = time = 32
trigger8 = power = [0, 249]
trigger8 = time = 34
value = 0
ctrl = 1

I think what you want is overriding these in common1.cns?

Quote

[State 5050, 4] ;Recover near ground
type = ChangeState
triggerall = Vel Y > 0
triggerall = Pos Y >= Const(movement.air.gethit.groundrecover.ground.threshol d)
triggerall = alive
triggerall = CanRecover
trigger1 = Command = "recovery"
value = 5200 ;Air get-hit (fall recovery on ground)

[State 5050, 5]; Recover in mid air
type = ChangeState
triggerall = Vel Y > Const(movement.air.gethit.airrecover.threshold)
triggerall = alive
triggerall = CanRecover
trigger1 = Command = "recovery"
value = 5210 ;Air get-hit (fall recovery in air)

They are in state 5050, which is the (only) standard falling state.
If you also want to recover from custom falling states, you'll need the code in state -2, you'll need to use selfstate, and you'll need to code it like this

[State -2]
Type=Selfstate
Triggerall=Movetype=H
Triggerall=hitfall
Triggerall=canrecover
Trigger1=command="recovery"
value=your recovery state number

[State 5100, tech]
type = ChangeState
triggerall = time < 12
triggerall = gethitvar(fall.recover) = 1;canrecover = 1
trigger1 = command="a" || command="b" || command="c" || command="x" || command="y" || command="z"
value = 8065

-It's not a training mode only combo. That's 3 meter and 3 meter is the maximum.
-I think Nadia's Standing C is buggin out as well.
-Binary Nadia's EX QCF move does ridiculous damage. More than her super.