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Capcom Shoto-Bonanza (Read 26975 times)

Started by swipergod, June 05, 2016, 03:20:04 am
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Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#1  June 05, 2016, 03:20:04 am
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Modifying this topic to focus on the 2 teams of the World Warriors and Shadaloo. Cammy has her own topic since she's full custom and won't be included here.

World Warriors

Ryu
Hadouken
Hurricane Kick
Dragon Punch
Air Grab (a la demon roll - done in the air)
Stepping Kick (with autoguard)

Shinkuu Hadouken
Metsu Shoryuken
Shin Shoryuken (SFA 3 style)
Metsu Hadouken

Chun Li
Kikoken
Tenshokyakuu
Lightning Leg
Spinning Bird Kick
Hazanshu

Kikosho
Houyoku-Sen
Sanretsukyakyuu
Shichisei Senkukyakuu

Guile
Flash Kick
Sonic Boom
Sonic Barrage
Crossfire (Rekka style move)
Slash Kick (air Flash)

Flash Explosion
Sonic Break
Crossfire Blitz
Sonic Hurricane

Shadaloo

Vega
Psycho Shot
Head Stomp
Diving Fist
Knee Press
Vega Warp

Psycho Field
Knee Press Pressure
Knee Press Nightmare
Psycho Crusher

Sagat
High Fireball
Low Fireball
Tiger Uppercut
Tiger Knee
Tiger Dance (close unblockable attack a la King)

Tiger Cannon High & Low
Burning Tiger Raid
Powered Up Cannon
Tiger Destruction

Balrog
Tumbling Claw
Barcelona Attack
Izuna Drop (Reg super throw)
Aurora Spin
Scarlet Terror

Red Impact
Bloody Kiss
Bloody Embrace
Izuna Fury
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Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 03:43:49 am by swipergod
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#2  June 05, 2016, 03:26:29 am
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Honestly, there's still enough distinction between them that sets them apart from one another. Yes, they can be played SIMILARLY, but the core mechanics are all different (for instance, Demitri's the only one with teleporting abilities, Morrigan has her air dash thingie (if she still has it here), both Demitri and Morrigan have air fireballs which Ryu and Sagat doesn't have, Ryu and Sagat have more reliable K attacks than Demitri (Tatsumaki is far more reliable than Bat Spin is what I'm saying) as well as reaches on some attacks (for instance, Demitri and Sagat have far superior reach on their crouching attacks than Ryu and Morrigan, etc.). But that's my two cents anyways.

Now the question though is, how will you handle the Midnight Bliss with Demitri, since you originally said that was going to be a problem for the cast? Unless you're doing just one sprite per character (or you're going two sprites, one stand and one grabbed)? Or did you find someone to help do that for the project or...?
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#3  June 05, 2016, 03:41:23 am
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Well there are already many characters that have the Midnight bliss sprites made for them and then there are quite a few that have been made by spriters all over the place.
so, its feasible to accomplish at a minimal cost, especially if Metal warrior and Thedge are involved.

looks like I got to get to work on a Demitri portrait :iog::rolleyes4::goi:
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#4  June 05, 2016, 04:42:35 am
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I can make a list of what we have so far for Midnight Bliss, base off what's on Xenomic's site, SVC and some other custom jobs out there. Maybe that deserves its own topic...
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Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#5  June 05, 2016, 04:49:56 am
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That could work, aye. Hopefully it cuts down on a lot of time needed for those! ^^;
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#6  June 05, 2016, 05:07:39 am
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I can make a list of what we have so far for Midnight Bliss, base off what's on Xenomic's site, SVC and some other custom jobs out there. Maybe that deserves its own topic...

oh shit, :omg: I completely forgot it was Xenomic who has a ton of those and its own topic would be cool.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#7  June 05, 2016, 03:00:57 pm
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@Ryu: Why does Ryu have a Counter into his stepping kick? Why doesn't he just have his stepping kick by itself? I get wanting to be versatile, but if it ain't broke, than you probably don't need to fix it. I like the stepping kick; it's a nice close-range attack that, like the rest of Ryu's moves, can be used both offensively and defensively, and turning it into a counter just seems unnecessary.

Come to think of it, that's actually the problem I have with this game. Don't get me wrong, I still like KOFE, but in trying to 'standardize' move-sets and other game elements while adding versatility, as well as trying not to reuse sprites, you'd made a lot of changes to the movesets that I just think are unnecessary. The big one is that just about everyone has at least one move from their arsenal cut out, even though doing so would still keep them within the 6-move limit. (Which to me honestly feels more like a five move limit with only certain characters getting a pass.) Some moves aren't that big of a deal, but with others, it is, like with Eiji's Kasumi Kiri. It was one of the lynchpins of his arsenal, but for whatever reason, you removed it, even though there was no real reason to as far as I see it. (And maybe you did see one, though I still don't really see why you would.)

You also seem to give characters 'new' moves that amount to proximity unblockables, which don't give them anything new that helps them actually stand out or be more unique, and seem to be there just to fill a movelist quota, which honestly just seems arbitrary. A character doesn't need a lot of moves to be good, and just because they have a ton of moves doesn't make them strong either. If someone only has 3-4 moves, then that's fine, as long as they're all good moves. You don't need to throw in some move that they don't really need just to give them a certain amount of moves, and yet, that seems to be what you're doing a lot of the time. Not all the time, but more often than not, that's what it seems to be.

I just don't feel that you needed to take out and or add in or change up all of these moves. Again, it feels arbitrary or unnecessary, and you could have just left the movesets for most characters as they were. Though that's just my opinion and all.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#8  June 05, 2016, 03:47:49 pm
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Your opinion is respected. And it's clearly one that I won't be swaying, so I'll just say this.

I will say this though; when you make a change to the mechanic of a move, you change the move and when you add or remove a move, you add or remove a move, you add or remove a dimension to a character. Clearly what I'm doing is intentional. I've spent some time trying to adjust the movesets of 76 characters to keep a pick up and play feel and add some balance.

Look at SNK proper. They have a version of a character (eg KOF 2k King) and they change it (KOF XIII King) and sometimes remove moves as a result. I personally don't like Double Strike as a DM, but I also don't mind trying something new and adapting. While I'm trying to maintain classic components, I'm not married to them to help set my game apart. If what that ends up delivering, in your opinion, is an inferior result, there are alternative games out there for you to play. I realize can't please everyone 100% and so I try to find the happy medium instead.
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Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#9  June 05, 2016, 04:28:24 pm
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Your opinion is respected. And it's clearly one that I won't be swaying, so I'll just say this.

I will say this though; when you make a change to the mechanic of a move, you change the move and when you add or remove a move, you add or remove a move, you add or remove a dimension to a character. Clearly what I'm doing is intentional. I've spent some time trying to adjust the movesets of 76 characters to keep a pick up and play feel and add some balance.

Look at SNK proper. They have a version of a character (eg KOF 2k King) and they change it (KOF XIII King) and sometimes remove moves as a result. I personally don't like Double Strike as a DM, but I also don't mind trying something new and adapting. While I'm trying to maintain classic components, I'm not married to them to help set my game apart. If what that ends up delivering, in your opinion, is an inferior result, there are alternative games out there for you to play. I realize can't please everyone 100% and so I try to find the happy medium instead.

No offense, but you're not SNK. Look; when I'm playing a official KOF game, I am fine with SNK changing some things, because these are the official KOF games made by SNK, and they can do what they want. But when I'm playing a fan or MUGEN game, then I expect them to stick pretty darn close to what SNK has done, at least in terms of the gameplay and movesets. I want to feel like I'm playing a KOF game, and something like KOFZ  which mostly uses established moves and standard KOF gameplay is my favorite KOF MUGEN game because of that. Whereas something like KOF Shining, which in some cases nearly completely reworks a character like Nameless or Xiangfei, is less so.

It's the same here. I want to be able to run up to an opponent and start a combo from a C.LK, but in many cases, I can't. I want to use Eiji's Kasumi Kiri, or Angel and May Lee's full list of chains, but I can't. Oh, and one thing I should clarify is that, since most MUGEN games use the classic KOF sprites, than I'm mostly comparing the characters to their pre-XII movelists, which means I also want to use Andy's Gekishouken as a special and Kim's rekka if I can. (Whereas if the game was based more off of XII/XIII, I wouldn't mind because they aren't in there, at least not as specials.) I want it to play like a KOF game as SNK has established them. And I know; if I want a KOF game that's just like a KOF game, than why don't I just play a KOF game? And lately, that's what I've been doing rather than playing the MUGEN games, because I've realized that if I want to play the real thing, I might as well just play the real thing. But regardless, if I'm playing a MUGEN KOF, I still want it to feel like an actual KOF as much as possible.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#10  June 05, 2016, 04:56:29 pm
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Those are solid reasons for your own personal preferences. But Swipergod isn't making this game for you. He's making it for himself. And putting his own spin on things. If he attempted to make it as you are asking it might make him lose interest because it's not the versions of the characters he thinks would fit his game.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#11  June 05, 2016, 05:22:28 pm
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Thanks JNP.

kkhohoho, making a custom game on a game making engine means giving yourself the opportunity to be the game developer and develop your vision. I don't have to work for SNK to develop something. Your vision and mine are clearly different, and should you ever want to develop your own game and keep it as close to official products as possible, I will be happy to try it out.

I determined long ago what I wanted this game to be, and that's why May Lee doesn't have Hero Mode and there's no Raging Storm motion. I listen to feedback, and I will be adjusting the combos in the game (as previously mentioned in the 0.99 feedback topic), but you have to take the game for what it is. The way you describe what it is you're looking for, I stated many times that I was not going that route. Not everyone's going like a game, whether it's official or not.

You don't like the fact that Ryu has a counter vs his regular stepping kick. Gouki had a counter in CVS2 and that's what I was playing off of. I'm looking for more functionality then just an advancing move. Perhaps I can give the stepping kick some autoguard properties? This is the discussion we can have. I'm happy to discuss the technical because I'm building a game and weighing it against the engine I've made and the other roster's movesets. To me, whether or not Capcom or SNK have done it this way for all eternity is not as important as "does that work for KOFE".
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Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#12  June 05, 2016, 09:19:45 pm
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Thanks JNP.

kkhohoho, making a custom game on a game making engine means giving yourself the opportunity to be the game developer and develop your vision. I don't have to work for SNK to develop something. Your vision and mine are clearly different, and should you ever want to develop your own game and keep it as close to official products as possible, I will be happy to try it out.

I determined long ago what I wanted this game to be, and that's why May Lee doesn't have Hero Mode and there's no Raging Storm motion. I listen to feedback, and I will be adjusting the combos in the game (as previously mentioned in the 0.99 feedback topic), but you have to take the game for what it is. The way you describe what it is you're looking for, I stated many times that I was not going that route. Not everyone's going like a game, whether it's official or not.

You don't like the fact that Ryu has a counter vs his regular stepping kick. Gouki had a counter in CVS2 and that's what I was playing off of. I'm looking for more functionality then just an advancing move. Perhaps I can give the stepping kick some autoguard properties? This is the discussion we can have. I'm happy to discuss the technical because I'm building a game and weighing it against the engine I've made and the other roster's movesets. To me, whether or not Capcom or SNK have done it this way for all eternity is not as important as "does that work for KOFE".

I'm not asking you to change the game, and I completely understand that you're making it for yourself. I'm just telling you how I feel about it because it had been on my mind for a while, and I figured this was a good time to finally bring it up. But in no way do I want you to alter the game just to please me, and at no point did I say that. I'm sorry if that's how I came across, but really, the game is fine as it is. It's just that it's not exactly my cup of tea, and I guess my last couple posts were just a really roundabout way of saying that, but it's your game, so you make it how you want to. Again, sorry if it seemed like I was trying to tell you how to make the game or anything like that.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#13  June 05, 2016, 09:34:24 pm
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This is just a suggestion, but instead of the Counter, what if Ryu got his Focus Punch? It works really well as a counter move (that works in it's own unique way), and seeing Ryu keep it in Smash does makes me feel that the Focus Punch really suits his move set very nicely. Of course, instead of throwing the opponent to the other side of the screen, it would cause them to collapse instead, and from there, you could attack the collapsing opponent as you please. What do you think?
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#14  June 06, 2016, 01:10:49 pm
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@kkhohoho No worries. Your technical point about Ryu was taken and the rest was heard.

@MotorRoach I could perhaps do a Type 3 counter here instead. There aren't many in the game right now. Move starts out as one move (step kick), but if the autoguard point is hit, it comes out as something else (focus punch). I still need to fully implement the collapse animations. I'm thinking of adding a new dynamic to a few moves in the game that would have them work like focus attacks. I'll play around with this adjustment and see if that works. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#15  June 08, 2016, 12:26:26 pm
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So giving Ryu the "chop" was really bugging me, but I didn't want him to have the hurricane super (I'm giving that to Richard). So I decided to give him a weaker version of the Shin Shoryuken. The Metsu Shoryuken also does 4 hits and would burn with purple flame. He would still strike with the elbow first a la SFA3. I feel better about Ryu's moveset now.
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Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#16  June 08, 2016, 12:57:46 pm
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I just wanted to quickly say that I actually really like the way Swiper is editing/changing moves here. We already have the official SNK games, he is building something new and unique, which is part of what makes mugen and similar game making software so great. This gives the game a balanced and fresh feel, and it helps to make it something different than the SNK games that you already own. Every fan made full-game should have a unique take, otherwise it's just a compilation, and you can make that on your own. Just my 2 cents, not saying that anyone's opinions aren't valid.

What I really wanted to say though, is that for some reason I really love this Capcom team. I'm actually not sure why exactly, it just feels "right" to me. It's just so very...Capcom-ish, if that makes sense. Well, that, and I just absolutely love Morrigan and Demitri. Plus SNK Morrigan = win.

Very cool.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#17  June 08, 2016, 06:18:43 pm
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I just wanted to quickly say that I actually really like the way Swiper is editing/changing moves here. We already have the official SNK games, he is building something new and unique, which is part of what makes mugen and similar game making software so great. This gives the game a balanced and fresh feel, and it helps to make it something different than the SNK games that you already own. Every fan made full-game should have a unique take, otherwise it's just a compilation, and you can make that on your own. Just my 2 cents, not saying that anyone's opinions aren't valid.
Totally agree man!
You took the words right out of my mouth. So, thanks for the help eheeheh.
As for me, i played alot of mugen games, and all were interesting so far. Alot of classical ones, where the authors would add some new feats to the classical gameplay, and some others sticking on the usual gameplays from arcades. All ok for me. But if i can choose between classic and innovative, i'd chosse the latter. Give your own twist on the game it's a great way to improve it to new lenghts. Becoming more intriguing and unique. That's the spark i follow. I respect kkhohoho opinion, i understand him. But swipergod is doing an excellent job. At least, he's showing his ideas to the community, thus accepting all opinions and hints\constructive critiques we can give him. Only for this he deserves all praises available.

So, swipergod, please give it your all. I'll gladly play it, and enjoy :D

As you said too, not the 100% of communities will fully appreciate the game, but who cares. This project relies on your self satisfaction, and that's it ;)
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#18  June 08, 2016, 07:47:15 pm
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I don't think Demitri had Demon Blast/Demon Billion in SvC, so you'll have to make new animations for that. In Darkstalkers it did reuse a few frames from Chaos Flare, so you can probably do that here too.
Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#19  June 10, 2016, 01:32:26 pm
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Thanks for the support all. Hope you'll like the final result. I think I'm going to try out the wire damage bounce off the step kick first and see if I like that result for Ryu.

Regarding Demitri, I thought I saw him with an air fireball in a youtube video. Has this custom sprite not already been made?
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Re: Capcom Shoto-Bonanza
#20  June 11, 2016, 05:33:41 am
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Yes,  Chaos Flare can be used in the air. There are already sprites for it in the source game, no need to make custom ones.