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Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer (Read 2609 times)

Started by Iced, November 28, 2014, 12:15:19 am
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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#61  December 08, 2014, 08:30:08 pm
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I'm going to respond to this imagining everyone as grey blobs because color is not the issue here. First off, this was a chain reaction. Even if the cosplayer had earbuds in, was blasting music, he still had his eyes to notice the cops and the instinct to run from them. I'm not saying he was guilty of anything, but innocent people don't run from the cops. It's common knowledge. You don't even have to be smart to know not to do that. Next situation, he could have just dropped his weapon to show that he wasn't a threat.

Then there's the other side as I'm considering both. The cops shot him because he ran... or was black. I'm not the cops. I don't know what was on their minds at the time. I agree that shooting is not the way to go with a running suspect, but it's possible that had he still been holding the sword that they thought was real, they obviously wouldn't want to get close to it, thus keeping their distance.

In the end, it could have saved his life if he didn't run. Seeing how he did, the cops could have reacted better than shooting him. In other words, there's no point in taking a side here. There's not enough facts to really justify one thing over the other.
i dont think you read the article closely- it says he ran after they started firing at him. he was swinging around the sword or whatever so they took it as a threat and started firing.

from statements he was "laughing and smiling and swinging it towards officers, tho it was a fake cosplay sword." to the officers he appeared violent, and they believed the sword was real. so they shot him cause they thought he might "hack the first person he saw"

i think its clear it would not have happened had he not run, and they seem to want to establish it wouldnt have happened he not acted like a punk- tho this is not verified. witness reports say he "unsheathed" the sword but did not swing it.  but either way, it does not excuse what happened.

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Buhman said the police didn’t have enough time to attempt nonlethal force because the 37-second incident escalated so quickly and without provocation.

“The officers had to do with what was most immediately available to them — that was their firearms,” Buhman said.

didnt have time to attempt nonlethal force so they killed him, lol
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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#62  December 08, 2014, 08:34:19 pm
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The same witness who said Hunt only unsheathed the sword was quoted by the police as saying Hunt was swinging it at police, and said witness was aghast at the police misreporting their testimony.

So clearly everything is on the up and up here, no need to get so outraged, jeez, it's Hunt's fault he's dead, now can we talk about the real problem here, black on black crime?
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#63  December 08, 2014, 08:49:29 pm
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i dont think you read the article closely- it says he ran after they started firing at him. he was swinging around the sword or whatever so they took it as a threat and started firing.

from statements he was "laughing and smiling and swinging it towards officers, tho it was a fake cosplay sword." to the officers he appeared violent, and they believed the sword was real. so they shot him cause they thought he might "hack the first person he saw"

i think its clear it would not have happened had he not run, and they seem to want to establish it wouldnt have happened he not acted like a punk- tho this is not verified. witness reports say he "unsheathed" the sword but did not swing it.  but either way, it does not excuse what happened.

Quote
Buhman said the police didn’t have enough time to attempt nonlethal force because the 37-second incident escalated so quickly and without provocation.

“The officers had to do with what was most immediately available to them — that was their firearms,” Buhman said.

didnt have time to attempt nonlethal force so they killed him, lol
Erm, you're right about that. I didn't read the article closely enough. Hmm, well if they were the first to take action then it all falls to them and my statement(s) are rendered null and void, lol. Welp, I feel dumb. Still, in a way my point still sort of stands on one wobbly leg. There's the fact that Hunt had his sword pointed at cops. Cosplay or not, that's just not something you do. They're usually serious about their jobs and would easily take that as a threat. I can't really side with the hate-crime side of things though.

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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#64  December 08, 2014, 08:54:51 pm
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There's the fact that Hunt had his sword pointed at cops.
That's a bogus thing to say too.
The thing is that we don't know exactly what happened. JMM just pointed out the witness complained his statement was misrepresented by the police. For all we know, the guy could very well have unsheathed his sword to show it to the policemen, so they would see it was a toy sword and not sharp. This would be pretty logical, and it would fit the witness report. (of course it would have been smarter to simply give the sheathed sword to the cops so they would see for themselves and not take it as a threat, but if you know it's a toy it's easy to think you can just show them by pulling it out yourself)
Saying he was "pointing it at the cops" is a big assumption to make (a biased one) just from reading that it was unsheathed.

He was smiling and talking, he didn't think it was serious, he pulled the sword to show that it was a toy, they overreacted and drew their gun because they didn't understand that a fake sword can't possibly "hack people up", possibly immediately shot at him, he freaked out and bolted, they pursued.
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Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 08:59:36 pm by DKDC
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#65  December 08, 2014, 09:31:33 pm
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That's a bogus thing to say too.
The thing is that we don't know exactly what happened. JMM just pointed out the witness complained his statement was misrepresented by the police. For all we know, the guy could very well have unsheathed his sword to show it to the policemen, so they would see it was a toy sword and not sharp. This would be pretty logical, and it would fit the witness report. (of course it would have been smarter to simply give the sheathed sword to the cops so they would see for themselves and not take it as a threat, but if you know it's a toy it's easy to think you can just show them by pulling it out yourself)
Saying he was "pointing it at the cops" is a big assumption to make (a biased one) just from reading that it was unsheathed.

He was smiling and talking, he didn't think it was serious, he pulled the sword to show that it was a toy, they overreacted and drew their gun because they didn't understand that a fake sword can't possibly "hack people up", possibly immediately shot at him, he freaked out and bolted, they pursued.
Understandable, but I'm mainly speaking as if I had put myself in Hunt's shoes. Not trying to be biased towards any one side really. I'm just saying that it's definitely not a hate crime, which is what most people usually resort to when they see that it was a black kid who was the victim. To me, unsheathing a sword means that you're removing it from the sheath. Usually, this motion is a swing followed by a "ready" stance, which would be point the sword then at them. An assumption, yes, but like JMM said, there's no real facts for that since the police misrepresented the witness. So, that doesn't mean it's not that either. It just means that we don't know.

I think they still understood that a fake sword couldn't do that, but just didn't know that it was fake. We're also assuming the initial interaction was done from some distance. If the cops did think that there was threat, they would have apprehended Hunt differently. For example, if there was no sword involved.

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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#66  December 08, 2014, 09:55:45 pm
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I think they still understood that a fake sword couldn't do that, but just didn't know that it was fake. We're also assuming the initial interaction was done from some distance. If the cops did think that there was threat, they would have apprehended Hunt differently. For example, if there was no sword involved.

Dunno if we can assume that considering there is this photo from when he asked them for a ride.

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#67  December 08, 2014, 11:21:06 pm
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Understandable, but I'm mainly speaking as if I had put myself in Hunt's shoes. Not trying to be biased towards any one side really. I'm just saying that it's definitely not a hate crime, which is what most people usually resort to when they see that it was a black kid who was the victim. To me, unsheathing a sword means that you're removing it from the sheath. Usually, this motion is a swing followed by a "ready" stance, which would be point the sword then at them. An assumption, yes, but like JMM said, there's no real facts for that since the police misrepresented the witness. So, that doesn't mean it's not that either. It just means that we don't know.
First, I think you're going into this putting the white-black issue at the fore and not the details of the case at all. Ignore that for now because I wanted to highlight something you said here:


To me, unsheathing a sword means that you're removing it from the sheath. Usually, this motion is a swing followed by a "ready" stance, which would be point the sword then at them. An assumption, yes...
I'd like to point out that the witness himself wanted to make a clear differentiation between "unsheathing" a sword and swinging it at, or pointing it at, anyone.
Secondly, when has the act of unsheathing a sword automatically implied pointing it at someone?
Thirdly, besides not entirely discerning what you mean by, 'the unsheathing  motion being a swing,' you automatically jump to, "followed by a "ready" stance, which would be point the sword then at them," which to me sounds forced and honestly, absurd. It bears the question, "Are you differentiating the actual act of "unsheathing" from what it is "followed by""?
Fourthly, just to make sure this is clear, there are things called "sword shows" where people unsheathe their swords all the time and show them to customers without pointing them at anyone or going into a ready stance (and I'd say, without swinging them too unless our definitions of "swing" happen to be different).
Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 11:45:16 pm by GentleOne
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#68  December 08, 2014, 11:27:04 pm
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For the record, I don't give a fuck if the kid was black. I'm saying this is fucked up because that was unnecessary use of force.
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#69  December 08, 2014, 11:44:09 pm
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in this day and age you never know what fucked up people will do so cops are always on edge. brandishing and admittedly fake sword doesn't mean they'd automatically know it was. since 9/11, Boston Marathon bombing, and a shitlist of crazy shit cops take shit very seriously so this guy should not have been wielding a sword out in public unless he was at an event himself. walking around by your lonesome with a sword not only looks suspicious but it looks dangerous. He didn't need to die but had he not had the sword I doubt the cops would've shot.


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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#70  December 08, 2014, 11:53:16 pm
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in this day and age you never know what fucked up people will do so cops are always on edge.
As a counter, you also never know what cops are willing to do because they're so "on edge" (or even malicious). When innocent people lose their lives when they shouldn't, the fault is on the officers, and being "on edge" should never be an excuse; people are dying because of these overreactions; let's not forget that.
Really, how do you think your parents would have reacted if the scenario was that an on "edge cop" shot you "because he thought you had a gun," or do I need to find articles where that exact ridiculous crap has happened?


brandishing and admittedly fake sword doesn't mean they'd automatically know it was. since 9/11, Boston Marathon bombing, and a shitlist of crazy shit cops take shit very seriously so this guy should not have been wielding a sword out in public unless he was at an event himself. walking around by your lonesome with a sword not only looks suspicious but it looks dangerous. He didn't need to die but had he not had the sword I doubt the cops would've shot.
As Iced mentioned Utah is an open carry state. It's kind of absurd to say that guns can be displayed openly, but a sword a kid had been walking around with alone causes such hoopla. He was walking alone having fun and minding his own business and there are videos and pictures to prove it. How can you even minutely imply that, 'it was his own fault for walking around with a sword,' on any level, when people walk around with AR-15s in public out there.
Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 12:01:24 am by GentleOne
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#71  December 09, 2014, 12:08:34 am
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It's kind of absurd to say that guns can be displayed openly, but a sword a kid had been walking around with alone causes such hoopla.
Not to mention that on top of that, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have made a lot of difference if it had been a gun instead of a sword that he pulled on the cops. "No, no, it's a fake, see ? Look what happens when I pull the trigg*shot in the back 7 times*" "... Oh, it was a cigarette lighter."
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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#72  December 09, 2014, 12:32:30 am
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I'm not defending the cops by any means but the kid shouldn't have been walking around alone with the damn thing. Should've been at a convention. I've heard of people being told to put weapons away but never shot in the back. The cops handled the situation poorly and I think they need a permanent vacation from work as police officers. fired or laid off and put on retirement.


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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#73  December 09, 2014, 12:47:59 am
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maybe he unsheathed it to show the cops it was fake and not to attack someone.
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#74  December 09, 2014, 12:56:20 am
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the kid shouldn't have been walking around alone with the damn thing.
There's a lot of things people shouldn't really do. This or something else, they can be minor or serious.
For a fake sword, this may have scared some people but it wasn't crazy serious and he wasn't swinging it around threatening people like it was real. And again, in an open carry state where people can see assault rifles, complaining about a sword is ridiculous.
For something he "shouldn't have done", it would have been reasonable for the cops to tell him off. But anything beyond that isn't his fault. The cops feeling threatened by that is a terrible excuse. Cops should have training to handle dangerous situations without shooting people in the back. Even if it had been a real sword, even if it had been a realistic-looking gun-shaped cigarette lighter, they should have had the training to handle this properly without freaking out, without resorting to shooting him in the back.
The guy was smiling and asking them for a ride, the next minute he's running for his life : they absolutely fucked up with something they said or did. Cops should have the training to not fuck up like that, either in how they talk or how they act. They're the ones with the guns and the right to shoot people in the back apparently, they should have training to not do that.
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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#75  December 09, 2014, 01:46:05 am
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it's like they put any meathead in the force just to have some manpower and don't teach em shit. cops used to be honorable and assess the situation first..now it's shoot first and fuck the questions


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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#76  December 09, 2014, 02:26:45 am
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smh mann..The cops said something to that kid to scare him or something happened im sure. because if he had a fake sword he shouldnt have felt that way. something sour happened. Those cops fucked up bad and shooting a civilian in the back like that just for running here in the US should be considered murder

I saw a video (on spike tv) of an old drunk white man on the side of the road waving around a rifle and he didnt get Murphy'ed to death (*check robocop1*) at all. 4 cop cars or so swarmed him and all they did was talk and talk to him,,,,,no one shot shit

Its a particular shitty pattern i keep seeing with these cops on a certain topic but im going to leave that alone....That pattern has to stop. Its beyond retarded now and way out of line and a lot of people of races are beginning to see it each time bad cop situations go viral here in the US....


I feel anyone that even looks close to latin or black or is that of ethnic decent should use their fucking heads and be smart on all levels so you dont give any one of those boneheaded cops a BS reason to shoot you or jump on you. Yeah you have rights but a lot of cops dont give a damn and are waiting for an excuse to fucking shoot you. Just like the recent black dude that got shot for a pill bottle being mistaken for a gun...
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#77  December 09, 2014, 02:57:07 am
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By becoming a cop a person is putting themselves in a potentially life threatening situation on a daily basis, and they train for it.  They shouldn't get to use the same level of "oh I was on edge" or "I was startled" as any average person when determining whether or not they're legit afraid for their life.  They are trained and payed to exercise sharp judgement in high test situations, and this is far from high test. He wasn't dangerous at all, and any real attempt to subdue him or see if he was an actual threat would have likely resulted in his compliance, or at least a clarification that he was absolutely zero threat. 

Like I could see a normal person being startled for about half a second here.  Until they realized the guy was dressed up like a fuckin samurai, and was in no way raging.

The thing is the cops are Way out of control with this shit.  They're killing people over nothing and getting away with it because they can.  They just lie, and their lies suck, and are obviously lies.  Something really has to be done about it at this point, because by now they know they can get away with just about whatever they want.

And this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 03:12:35 am by H Mr. Ton!
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#78  December 09, 2014, 03:28:22 am
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Yeah pretty much....Lies like "I feared for my life". By a man with no weapon what so ever  ::) smh...That shit burns me up when i see that shit in the news. You are the COP. YOU have access for back up. YOU have a fucking gun. No excuse in that situation. Cops have many options to use to take a person down or stop them. If they didn't we wouldn't have shows like COPS on TV showing chase downs on foot. Killing a person is the last resort. SUPPOSEDLY. If they are now shooting harmless 12 year old kids IN A PLAYGROUND on some dumb shit something is seriously fucking wrong here. Folks cant justify that one in that type of environment at that....they didn't even talk the kid down, they just killed him. That was crazy^^

The whole AWESOME perk of law enforcement is calling for back up to better assess the situation before you kill somebody and they are actually innocent and harmless. If you gotta chase them down then chase them down WHILE calling for back up! Like Mr Tron said...they are trained for this shit and thats what pisses people off now seeing that crap in videos when they kill innocent civilians senselessly now.
Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 01:30:31 am by Legendary DeMoNk@I
Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#79  December 09, 2014, 08:49:33 pm
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I'd like to point out that the witness himself wanted to make a clear differentiation between "unsheathing" a sword and swinging it at, or pointing it at, anyone.
Secondly, when has the act of unsheathing a sword automatically implied pointing it at someone?
Thirdly, besides not entirely discerning what you mean by, 'the unsheathing  motion being a swing,' you automatically jump to, "followed by a "ready" stance, which would be point the sword then at them," which to me sounds forced and honestly, absurd. It bears the question, "Are you differentiating the actual act of "unsheathing" from what it is "followed by""?
Fourthly, just to make sure this is clear, there are things called "sword shows" where people unsheathe their swords all the time and show them to customers without pointing them at anyone or going into a ready stance (and I'd say, without swinging them too unless our definitions of "swing" happen to be different).
You're misunderstanding me completely. I'm not saying that he did these things. I'm saying I could see him doing something like this as a friggin' cosplayer. I'm not accusing him of anything because I don't know anything for sure. This is why I said "To me" and not just "He swung the sword and pointed it at the cops." The facts we have are quite generally: Kid did something stupid with a sword in front of the cops to make him seem like he was dangerous. Had that action not happened, he'd have still been alive. Since he did not however, blame falls to the cops...


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Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#80  December 09, 2014, 11:31:21 pm
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You're misunderstanding me completely.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
You're actually misunderstanding me; I'm trying to understand why "unsheathing" a sword would mean those things you mentioned in your post... Maybe you didn't word it the way you meant to.
In a broader sense, I'm also asking why, 'you could see him doing something like swinging the sword at the officers,' especially considering that a witness completely rejected the affidavit's mis-transcription of his statement and totally denied having seen Hunt swing the sword at the officers; when the singular fact that happens to be in dispute is whether Hunt "simply unsheathed the sword" or "swung it at officers" (mind you, that's why I'm perplexed by your definition); Hunt knew the sword was blunted and likely wouldn't hurt the policemen even if it hit them; Hunt was dealing with armed officers and RAN from them which likely refutes any suicide by cop hypothetical, etc. -- all of this even, "as a friggin' cosplayer,"  to use your words.
Edit: I understand that you're implying that he may have been being a bit of a clown[weird cosplayer in the officer's eyes], but to me there's a HUGE difference between, 'swinging a sword at the officers in a threatening manner,' and 'unsheathing it and even going into a ready stance as a cosplayer,' especially given that he had allegedly been speaking to the officers for a few minutes
I'm also asking if you believe that the mis-transcription could have resulted from the recording officer's definition of "unsheathing" being similar to yours.


...Since he did not however, blame falls to the cops...
That fits my bias, I guess. I'm not trying to force you to say something you don't believe by the way.
Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 01:23:37 am by GentleOne