YesNoOk
avatar

Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer (Read 2611 times)

Started by Iced, November 28, 2014, 12:15:19 am
Email this topic
View printable version
Share this topic:
Page 5 of 5← First < 1 2 3 4 5  All   Go Down

Bastard Mami

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#81  December 10, 2014, 01:44:59 am
  • ******
  • [E]
    • Mexico
just replying because for some reason thuis fucking topic always appears as unread whenever I check the forum's index even though no enw replies are getting added (unless gentel one is editing it every 5 minutes or so).

Алексей

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#82  December 10, 2014, 01:54:19 am
  • ****
  • Hey.
    • Ukraine
    • mugencoder.com

  • Online
GentleOne said, December 09, 2014, 11:31:21 pm
You're actually misunderstanding me; I'm trying to understand why "unsheathing" a sword would mean those things you mentioned in your post... Maybe you didn't word it the way you meant to. In a broader sense, I'm also asking why, 'you could see him doing something like swinging the sword at the officers,' especially considering that a witness completely rejected the affidavit's mis-transcription of his statement and totally denied having seen Hunt swing the sword at the officers; when the singular fact that happens to be in dispute is whether Hunt "simply unsheathed the sword" or "swung it at officers" (mind you, that's why I'm perplexed by your definition); Hunt knew the sword was blunted and likely wouldn't hurt the policemen even if it hit them; Hunt was dealing with armed officers and RAN from them which likely refutes any suicide by cop hypothetical, etc. -- all of this even, "as a friggin' cosplayer,"  to use your words.
Edit: I understand that you're implying that he may have been being a bit of a clown[weird cosplayer in the officer's eyes], but to me there's a HUGE difference between, 'swinging a sword at the officers in a threatening manner,' and 'unsheathing it and even going into a ready stance as a cosplayer,' especially given that he had allegedly been speaking to the officers for a few minutes
I'm also asking if you believe that the mis-transcription could have resulted from the recording officer's definition of "unsheathing" being similar to yours.


Алексей said, December 09, 2014, 08:49:33 pm
...Since he did not however, blame falls to the cops...
That fits my bias, I guess. I'm not trying to force you to say something you don't believe by the way.

I see. Well, maybe it's just me, but as I said before, when someone says that they've unsheathed their sword it usually means that they swung it from the sheath. I guess it's more from a "fighting" or "sword-play" perspective. There's many different ways to swing a sword and unsheathing one is not particularly easy to do without being "showy" in some sort of way. Maybe it was the unsheathing alone that made the cops react. There was also a moment where the cops did ask him to drop his weapon to which he responded "I can't do that. It's my sword." From a cop's perspective, I think this could be seen as resistance, so they would have been reason to get tense about the situation.

To answer your second question, yes, I believe that the mis-transcription could have resulted from the recording officer's definition, however, only they know what they saw. According to the video I've seen of Hunt before being pursued, his sword was completely unsheathed and held near the hilt with the sheath lying across the back of his arm. Unsheathing from this or any position (which we have no footage of unfortunately) would require a long reach as the katana was pretty large. I'm speculating as much as anyone else would, but it just seems to me that there had to be some form of provocation or none of this would have happened.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

GentleOne

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#83  December 10, 2014, 02:12:07 am
  • avatar
  • *
    • Anguilla
    • beeschen.belson@yandex.com
Ah, okay, I understand what you're saying. Thanks for the clarification.

Алексей

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#84  December 10, 2014, 03:09:00 am
  • ****
  • Hey.
    • Ukraine
    • mugencoder.com

  • Online

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

DKDC

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#85  December 10, 2014, 10:03:06 am
  • ******
Алексей said, December 10, 2014, 01:54:19 am
when someone says that they've unsheathed their sword it usually means that they swung it from the sheath.
[...]
his sword was completely unsheathed and held near the hilt with the sheath lying across the back of his arm. Unsheathing from this or any position (which we have no footage of unfortunately) would require a long reach as the katana was pretty large.
That's a very broad definition of "swinging", and also very biased. A big motion doesn't mean a swing ; I'd understand if after pulling it he was still making swinging moves and pointing it at the cops, but if he simply pulled it and then stood relaxed, you just can't call it swinging. Just pulling the sword isn't swinging, context (and attitude) will tell you what swinging is. And if he was chatting with the cops, pulled the sword, then relaxed, it wasn't swinging. If he was making wide and sudden movements, you could call it that ; but the witness says that's not what happened.

The cops are calling it "swinging" because it made they jumpy for some dumb reason, and they reacted by pulling their gun and shooting - which they obviously shouldn't have (as I was saying earlier, they should have training to not shoot on reaction until you fully know what's going on). But It doesn't mean it actually was.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 10:07:18 am by DKDC

Алексей

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#86  December 10, 2014, 01:26:28 pm
  • ****
  • Hey.
    • Ukraine
    • mugencoder.com

  • Online
DKDC said, December 10, 2014, 10:03:06 am
That's a very broad definition of "swinging", and also very biased. A big motion doesn't mean a swing ; I'd understand if after pulling it he was still making swinging moves and pointing it at the cops, but if he simply pulled it and then stood relaxed, you just can't call it swinging. Just pulling the sword isn't swinging, context (and attitude) will tell you what swinging is. And if he was chatting with the cops, pulled the sword, then relaxed, it wasn't swinging. If he was making wide and sudden movements, you could call it that ; but the witness says that's not what happened.

The cops are calling it "swinging" because it made they jumpy for some dumb reason, and they reacted by pulling their gun and shooting - which they obviously shouldn't have (as I was saying earlier, they should have training to not shoot on reaction until you fully know what's going on). But It doesn't mean it actually was.
A swing could be classified as a lot of different motions. You can't say that unsheathing couldn't be a swinging motion. There are many different ways to unsheathe a sword. We don't know which method Hunt chose. My point is that the "swing" could have been the pulling of the sword. The witness says that he only saw a flash from the metal of the unsheathed sword, so that's not even definitive proof that there was no swing to get there. There's proof that all of the shots were received while running, from the back. That means that something happened there that made him take off first. To be honest, the safest way he could have unsheathed the sword would be sliding it out near the ground with the sheath on the ground. However, Hunt refused to drop his weapon as was reported. So, let's think about this for a second. It's a 3-foot katana. What is the process of unsheathing? Well, you have to pull the sword entirely out. The sheath is held with one hand the sword taken out with the other, all the way to the tip. Given the curvature, there is an arc that must be made at some point to full take out the sword. Relaxed or not, this could have been easily "pointing" at them. This is the only reason why I'm using those particular words.

On a side note, just look at this thing:

That looks real as real could be. I have a sword that is extremely sharp and looks similar to it. Even at the distance the cops were, that looks real. Even at the distance the camera is from that sword, it looks real. I don't blame the cops for thinking it was real.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

DKDC

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#87  December 10, 2014, 01:45:49 pm
  • ******
Алексей said, December 10, 2014, 01:26:28 pm
You can't say that unsheathing couldn't be a swinging motion. There are many different ways to unsheathe a sword. We don't know which method Hunt chose.
You're taking your conclusion and trying to make facts retrofit it. If there are many different ways to unsheathe a sword, there definitely are some ways to not swing it. It's because we don't know how it went, that we can't say that it was a swing, what you can not do is that there are many ways to unsheathe it so he might have swung it.
The witness says he unsheathed it but did not swing it. If the cops took it as a swing, it's their mistake, because a third party specifically got mad when they changed his report from "unsheathe" to "swing". You can say all you want that they thought the motion was a swing, it's still a fuck-up on their part because it wasn't actually a swing.
Quote
The witness says that he only saw a flash from the metal of the unsheathed sword, so that's not even definitive proof that there was no swing to get there.
You're assuming there was a swing and then trying to make the report fit your conclusion. This is bad, it's like you're only trying to protect the cops by twisting the facts to give them an excuse. You're supposed to go the other way around, and start from the witness' testimony, which is "he unsheathed it", not "swing it".

Quote
There's proof that all of the shots were received while running, from the back. That means that something happened there that made him take off first.
How about he pulled the sword to show it was fake, they drew their gun and shot (and missed), so he bolted.

Quote
That looks real as real could be. I have a sword that is extremely sharp and looks similar to it. Even at the distance the cops were, that looks real. Even at the distance the camera is from that sword, it looks real. I don't blame the cops for thinking it was real.
How about he was chatting with them, asking them for a ride, they asked him about his sword, he laughed it off saying it was fake, pulled it to show they, they freaked, they shot, he freaked, he ran.

Everything you're saying is to protect the cops, to show that they might have been rightfully afraid. But the thing is, a third party witnessed what happened and said nothing that fits what the cops say. The benefit of the doubt goes to the victim, the guy who was shot in the back. It doesn't go to the cops.
If the witness didn't think it was a swing, it means the cops overreacted and fucked up. Obviously that can happen, they may have been jumpy for some weird reason, but the fact that it ended with them shooting the guy in the back makes them wrong by default. They're the ones who have to justify their action, not the other way around. If the witness says it wasn't a swing and they say it was a swing, it means it was ambiguous at best, and the whole point is that they should NOT have shot or even drawn their gun for "ambiguous". They should only pull their gun when they know and understand exactly what's going on. They can't kill people because they were jumpy, they can't kill people because they THINK he's shifty. They have to KNOW first that their life is in danger.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 01:49:58 pm by DKDC

Алексей

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#88  December 10, 2014, 02:26:49 pm
  • ****
  • Hey.
    • Ukraine
    • mugencoder.com

  • Online
You seem to be hung up on the "swing" vs "unsheathing" thing. Let's approach it differently:

Yes, but the third party claimed that he only saw a flash from the blade of the sword, meaning that the sword was already unsheathed and he didn't see the actual unsheathing. That crucial detail remains unknown to us. In my opinion, it's the start of the events that matter more then the end. I wouldn't care if it was the other way around and the cops ended up being dead instead. The start of the events is what caused the chain reaction that ended in Hunt's death. You yourself have said it here:
Quote
How about he pulled the sword to show it was fake, they drew their gun and shot (and missed), so he bolted.

The pulling of the sword was the problem. Had that not happened, he wouldn't have been dead. You can't simply ignore that and focus on the shooting because the shooting wouldn't have happened if not for the first event.



-[Все слова это только слова.]-

DKDC

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#89  December 10, 2014, 06:57:40 pm
  • ******
Алексей said, December 10, 2014, 02:26:49 pm
You seem to be hung up on the "swing" vs "unsheathing" thing.
Uh, yeah ? I'm kind of making a whole point that talking about "swinging a sword" strongly implies an act of aggression but it's completely possible to unsheathe a sword without it being an act of aggression. This makes a pretty big difference in excusing the cops from feeling threatened and murdering a guy.
Quote
Yes, but the third party claimed that he only saw a flash from the blade of the sword, meaning that the sword was already unsheathed and he didn't see the actual unsheathing. That crucial detail remains unknown to us.
... And you can't assume that he swung the sword at the cops in an aggressive manner. The point with this witness report is that he said nothing about swinging the sword at the cops, and the cops deliberately changed that to say that the witness reported he swung the sword at the cops.

Quote
In my opinion, it's the start of the events that matter more then the end. I wouldn't care if it was the other way around and the cops ended up being dead instead. The start of the events is what caused the chain reaction that ended in Hunt's death.
Him pulling the sword was dumb. It did not give the cops free reign to shoot. You don't get killed for something like that. Cops shouldn't be authorized to kill you for something like that.

Алексей said, December 10, 2014, 02:26:49 pm
The pulling of the sword was the problem. Had that not happened, he wouldn't have been dead. You can't simply ignore that and focus on the shooting because the shooting wouldn't have happened if not for the first event.
Of course it would have been smarter to not pull a sword on cops, but he did. The fact that he was dumb and pulled the sword doesn't excuse the cops for killing him. You say I focus on the shooting, but of course I do, because I'm making a whole point that they should only ever shoot when they have completely assessed the situation, they shouldn't shoot on reaction whenever a guy suddenly walks out of an alley and they didn't see him coming. It's ridiculous to say "well it wouldn't have happened if this guy hadn't been walking in front of them and suddenly turned around with a cell phone that vaguely looks like a gun". Because at this rate, I can easily say "well he wouldn't have been killed if he was white". This holds exactly as much ground as your argument because I'm pretty damn sure it's true (not necessarily because they're openly racists, but because of "casual racism" and ready-made assumptions ingrained into anyone's mind). More generally speaking, you shouldn't get shot just because you're not very bright and do something that vaguely seems brusque.
You can't tell me to not focus on the shooting when I'm making a whole point on the shooting itself, the very fact that their reaction was to shoot without knowing what the hell was going on.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 07:04:33 pm by DKDC

Алексей

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#90  December 10, 2014, 07:27:56 pm
  • ****
  • Hey.
    • Ukraine
    • mugencoder.com

  • Online
Quote
Uh, yeah ? I'm kind of making a whole point that talking about "swinging a sword" strongly implies an act of aggression but it's completely possible to unsheathe a sword without it being an act of aggression. This makes a pretty big difference in excusing the cops from feeling threatened and murdering a guy.
Yes, you're right, but at the same time one can swing a sword non-aggressively too. I've mentioned before that he could have easily unsheathed the sword safely without it seeming aggressive in anyone's eyes. That would be to do so on the ground. Again, Hunt refused to put his sword down, which shows resistance. I've mentioned that before as well. Does that point not count for anything in your eyes?

Quote
... And you can't assume that he swung the sword at the cops in an aggressive manner. The point with this witness report is that he said nothing about swinging the sword at the cops, and the cops deliberately changed that to say that the witness reported he swung the sword at the cops.
Correct, and I'm not. I'm not saying that he swung it aggressively. I never mentioned aggression. Only that it's quite possible for the unsheathing to have been interpreted as a swing. The witness says that he said nothing about swinging the sword at the cops and the cops did change his report. This is true, however, since your said that "swinging a sword" strongly implies aggression, it's safe to say that most people would think this way as well. I think aggression to after the first hearing of those words. The witness might also have had the same description of "swinging a sword" and since Hunt did not swing aggressively, the witness' report was that. Now, all I'm saying is that you can't discount that some form of a swing couldn't have happened, but you are. You're writing it off like it's not at all possible or at least that's how it seems.

Quote
Him pulling the sword was dumb. It did not give the cops free reign to shoot. You don't get killed for something like that. Cops shouldn't be authorized to kill you for something like that.
Yes, him pulling the sword was dumb. There's a recording of the representing attorney saying that cops have right to use deadly force if at all they feel life-threatened or they feel their partner is. This was his explanation for the Hunt being shot in the back as well. While I don't condone it, there's nothing I can say about it. It's their defense that they're using as well. The only thing I don't really agree with on the cops' side of things is that they were not interviewed right away after the incident.

Quote
Of course it would have been smarter to not pull a sword on cops, but he did. The fact that he was dumb and pulled the sword doesn't excuse the cops for killing him. You say I focus on the shooting because I'm making a whole point that they should only ever shoot when they have completely assessed the situation, they shouldn't shoot on reaction whenever a guy suddenly walks out of an alley and they didn't see him coming. It's ridiculous to say "well it wouldn't have happened if this guy hadn't been walking in front of them and suddenly turned around with a cell phone that vaguely looks like a gun". You shouldn't get shot just because you're not very bright and do something that vaguely seems brusque. You can't tell me to not focus on the shooting when I'm making a whole point on the shooting itself, the very fact that their reaction was to shoot without knowing what the hell was going on.
My focus is on the unknown because one, it's far more interesting and two, it actually requires discussion because there are varying points of view and opinions as to what really happened. As for the shooting, it's common knowledge that cops shouldn't be allowed to kill people just because they think they're in danger, yet the do, and this isn't the first case of that. On the side of the shooting, we all know what happened. Hunt ran and they shot at him six times, with the final shot being fatal and in the back. No, of course you shouldn't get shot for being dumb. However, every action has a consequence regardless of the intellectuality of the action. I agree that the reaction was uncalled for, but it still happened and it's not really something to debate over, you know?

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

DKDC

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#91  December 10, 2014, 08:43:02 pm
  • ******
Алексей said, December 10, 2014, 07:27:56 pm
Again, Hunt refused to put his sword down, which shows resistance.
This is a terrible reasoning. Every time a cop overreacts, there's the justification that "he resisted arrest". As soon as someone doesn't do the every whims of the officer, he's resisting arrest, and a few minutes later, he gets a bullet in the face.
This is a legally valid excuse, but it's still a horrible thing that cops are allowed to overreact as soon as someone "resists" by not obeying their every order. From the guy's stand point, his sword was fake, and the cops were telling him to drop his weapon, it's not strange in any way that he didn't take it seriously and was probably all "c'mon guys, don't be crazy, this is just a toy, man."

Quote
Now, all I'm saying is that you can't discount that some form of a swing couldn't have happened, but you are. You're writing it off like it's not at all possible or at least that's how it seems.
I'm not discounting it. You say "it could be anything, that means it might have been a swing (implied aggressive)". I'm saying "it could be anything, so we can't assume it was aggressive". The difference is that my version puts the burden of proof on the cops, because that's how it should be. Your version is giving an excuse for the cops to overreact, and it shouldn't. If it was in fact aggressive, the cops need to prove that.
If the witness didn't think it was a swing (implying aggressive), then it means it was reasonable to think it wasn't an aggressive swing (if it wasn't reasonable, the witness wouldn't have gotten angry that the cops specifically changed his account like that). And as soon as you have that, then the defense that the cops took it as an act of aggression falls flat and it becomes "they killed the man solely because they overreacted and completely misjudged the situation". Because a third party, an external observer, saw it happen and didn't think he was being aggressive or swung the sword at the cops in a threatening manner.
And that puts liability on the cops, that means they're supposed to take responsibility and justify their action.

Quote
There's a recording of the representing attorney saying that cops have right to use deadly force if at all they feel life-threatened or they feel their partner is. This was his explanation for the Hunt being shot in the back as well.
But the problem is that this reasoning gives full authorization to shoot people who have a toy weapon and don't comply to the cop's every order immediately (just because they think it's ridiculous, which it may absolutely be). That is wrong. The cop still need to be able to evaluate the situation by himself, otherwise that's just a totalitarian rule of force. You can't just exonerate the cops of all responsibility just for that. You are NOT supposed to bend over every time a cop misunderstands what's going on and is incapable of figuring it out by himself.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 08:46:12 pm by DKDC

Алексей

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#92  December 11, 2014, 02:15:40 am
  • ****
  • Hey.
    • Ukraine
    • mugencoder.com

  • Online
Quote
From the guy's stand point, his sword was fake, and the cops were telling him to drop his weapon, it's not strange in any way that he didn't take it seriously and was probably all "c'mon guys, don't be crazy, this is just a toy, man."
Yes, but what he said to the cops was "I can't do that. It's my sword." Joking or not, that's not helping his case.

I think we can both agree that the cops overreacted and should have handled the situation better. That's a given. I'm not debating with you about that so much. I'm just presenting one side that I believe could be true, because there are unanswered questions and I really want to know the truth. You're just accusing me of being on the cops' side and saying that I'm justifying their actions by making Hunt look like the bad guy. In any case, I think we can settle it here. It's only my opinion after all.


-[Все слова это только слова.]-

GentleOne

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#93  December 11, 2014, 06:53:38 am
  • avatar
  • *
    • Anguilla
    • beeschen.belson@yandex.com
Алексей said, December 11, 2014, 02:15:40 am
Yes, but what he said to the cops was "I can't do that. It's my sword." Joking or not, that's not helping his case.
I haven't read the long stuff above, but I would presume this article clarifies that (although the quote says the officers said, "away," based on the initial videos where a cop [and an unfazed, totally indifferent girl] followed him, it was very likely sheathed):


http://www.good4utah.com/story/d/story/affidavit-darrien-hunt-i-am-going-to-get-shot/32099/MxkSm0av2UyJ2ovvN618Ag
Quote
Specifically, when police first confronted Hunt they claim he asked for a ride. Officers said they would if he put the sword away. Hunt refused.
Hunt allegedly told police: "I can't do that. It's my sword."



Additionally, news about the 911 call + Audio:
http://fox13now.com/2014/10/02/audio-of-911-call-in-fatal-officer-involved-shooting-of-darrien-hunt-released/




.
Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 07:10:22 am by GentleOne

DKDC

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#94  December 11, 2014, 10:23:57 am
  • ******
Quote
An affidavit filed by investigators claims Darrien Hunt may have had a death wish.

Hunt was shot by Saratoga Springs police last month. Police claim he was carrying a sword and lunged at officers when they asked him to put the sword down.
Big whopping surprise, here's that difference between unsheathing and swinging the sword. Now it's "lunging" and he had a death wish. See why it's important ?
Quote
Despite being wounded, Hunt ran from the police. He was fatally shot a few yards away, once in the back.
Quote
The official report showed Hunt was shot six times, one of those bullets in the back.
The report also said Hunt was shot three times before running from police.
"Shot once in the back". Is someone trying to minimize their fuck-up or what.
Quote
The affidavit claimed police were investigating an “aggravated assault.”
Like Michael Brown, the cops came to Hunt because they were looking for someone who attacked someone else, and Hunt fit the description ? But the court will still fall for it despite obvious precedents.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

GentleOne

Re: Cops shoot, kill black Mugen cosplayer
#95  December 12, 2014, 02:39:11 am
  • avatar
  • *
    • Anguilla
    • beeschen.belson@yandex.com
Page 5 of 5← First < 1 2 3 4 5  All   Go Up