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Edit or not edit ? that is the question. (Read 2032 times)

Started by arthur69, April 21, 2009, 09:57:01 am
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arthur69

Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#1  April 21, 2009, 09:57:01 am
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  • "Ware yori sugure mono wa nashi."
    • www.brokenmugenhr.com
Hi,

Vyx reported to me what he asked to one of your global modo (Shamrock) :

Quote
... I will try to be more precise.

"Kung fu man" tha admin of random select have released the sf 2 balrog stage in HR resolution (640*480).

We will release the same stage in HD (1280*960) based on another better definition sprite (not an upscale of his sprite).

We will just copy the animation architecture because he did that well.

I would like to know how this is considered : release or edit ?

And the answer is :

Quote
edit

I perfectly understand that works based on kung fu man works is an edit.
This is not. We will release the same stage, a street fighter 2 rip, based on another sprite which have nothing to do with kung fu man works.
It become an edit if we study and implement the same architecture for the little anime ? so we won't we and do our own... (That's so simple to do...)

Your Academic difference between edit and release is not clear.
The excellent K.O.D (nothing against you K.O.D., your char is excellent and have add-value) krizalid just released reuse krizalid existing sprites and is in release. In the same way Lot of your "release" reuse and implements existing stuffs.

SF2 LR Balrog stage was a release
SF2 HR Balrog stage was a release
I don't see why SF2 HD Balrog stage have to be an "edit", if not based on anterior works.

Your edit or release acceptation seems to be partial, Do you have an "edit" definition in your policies ?

As Shamrock said to us (nothing personal Shamrock...)

Quote
This is the second time I have had to move and edited release to that section.

If I have to do it again I will ban you for not following the sites rules.

We need a clear definition to can post our works correctly. At least to understand your appreciation of main works/implementation.
Because, with you actual indications, we will be ban if we implement the little kung fu man animation, i don't think this is your policies mind (which have, i really think, good mind).

CG.
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:19:22 am by arthur69

Cyanide

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#2  April 21, 2009, 10:27:54 am
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Things become an edit when you use an existing member of this communities work to create it.

If it's code you use, it's an edit. If it's edited sprites that you apply different code to, it's an edit.

The exceptions are if you have permission to use someones sprites to make a character. Or if you have permission to expand on an existing character.

If you DON'T have permission, we won't stop you making, or releasing it, but your work will wind up in the edits section. Cos you will have edited someone elses work.

Please, stop using the "you have edited insert company here's work" argument as well. It's been done by every single person who tries to buck the trend. We have worked like this for 9 or so years now, we KNOW we use their work. When we do so we accord them proper respect. We don't just take it and go MINE!! Unlike other people i won't name.

We've been over this. You should fucking well (yes i swore) understand it by now. If you don't. Stop posting, read some OLD threads and actually go and read the rules for a bit. You should probably read them in some other forums as well and see what's a problem and what isn't.

We no longer enforce our will on people who steal, like we used to. We don't condone it either. If you steal it's on YOUR head. Your work will be ignored or belittled and that will be your fault and problem. It will also stain you well into the point where you do something legit. Based on this, it would be highly recommended that you clean up your act doing all your own work, or basing what you do on things that are open source.

The people who aren't open source kick up the biggest fuss, and we're not actually obliged to shut them up.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

arthur69

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#3  April 21, 2009, 10:36:49 am
  • **
  • "Ware yori sugure mono wa nashi."
    • www.brokenmugenhr.com
TY for Answer Cyanide.

So, if we make all the SF2 HD stage, without implementing any line of Kung fu man works, this is a release.

If we implement any line of Kung fu man works with his permission, it is release.

If we implement any line of Kung fu man works without his permission, it is edit.

There is no implementation "size"  or mainworks/implementation ratio in consideration.

Am i right ?
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:49:00 am by arthur69

Cyanide

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#4  April 21, 2009, 10:54:55 am
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  • I am the eye of the storm to come!
    • New Zealand
    • network.mugenguild.com/cyanide/
In the situation where you do all the work, but take a small facet out of someone elses. A move, or an effect, it's still essentially a release. Good manners dictates you tell people that you used their stuff but there is no obligation on you to do so.

You have to have done a substantial amount of work to differentiate what you've done from the original. Taking someone elses file and changing 2 numbers (or 5, whatever) does not count for this.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

arthur69

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#5  April 21, 2009, 11:07:59 am
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  • "Ware yori sugure mono wa nashi."
    • www.brokenmugenhr.com
Cyanide,

You just said what i was thinking...

Quote
A move, or an effect, it's still essentially a release

The HD stage we develop is our all our work. Main sprites, def file... We have the idea to maybe reuse and adapt the kung fu man animation for "the crazy buffalo" :



Shamrock said it is an edit if we adapt and implement this animation.
All the other stage creation is our work.

So, for me, this animation is
Quote
an effect
, not the mainworks... and
Quote
it's still essentially a release
But if your mugenguild opinion is different, i just want to clearly undesrstand it... We just want to respect your policies mind...
And we don't want to be ban because of subjective misunderstandings...

TY for your explanations. :)
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 11:15:41 am by arthur69

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#6  April 21, 2009, 05:49:59 pm
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Here is the simple answer Vyx.

Are you sprite swapping? Then it's an edit.

Are you resizing the sprites? Then it's an edit.

Are you making something high res that was low res? It's and edit.

Since you can't seem to get it we will make it very simple for you. If you or your other personalities edits something that you didn't make. (I.E. making changes to an existing creation) Then it's an edit.

There is is Barney Style. Good luck.

DKDC

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#7  April 21, 2009, 06:00:20 pm
  • ******
... Though it's not an edit if you do your coding/animation file from scratch and just copy the same timings from KFM for one animation out of the whole thing when everything else is your own.
For a character, this would be the same as taking just a block of code and copying it to your own character where all the rest is your own. That's okay, it's a release.
The fine line is how much of the original work you take. If you take, like, 70% of the whole creation and just swap the rest for some things of your own, that's an edit. If you only take less than 10%, it can count as a release.

Quote
If we implement any line of Kung fu man works with his permission, it is release.

If we implement any line of Kung fu man works without his permission, it is edit.
No.
If you implement a large part of his work, with or without his permission, it's an edit.
If you only  take a handful of lines from his work, with or without his permission, it's a release.

It's still more polite to ask his permission if you take stuff from his work at any rate (unless it's really something ridiculous like a simple short list of values), but that's a different matter altogether. It's completely unrelated to it being an edit or a release.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 06:04:53 pm by Byakko

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#8  April 21, 2009, 06:04:06 pm
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  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
He means the KFM the character template for Mugen. Not the user Kung Fu Man.

Thank for confusing him more Byakko. LOL. Thanks for fucking me Byakko LOL. Don't read the strike through Vyx.

Also Vyx, next time you quote one my PM's Quote the whole thing.\

Here is the rules in the edit's and add-on section. Notice how I quote the whole thing.

Brokenpots HD said, March 07, 2008, 01:36:19 am
Use this board to announce releases of "edits and add-ons", i.e. respectively modifications of or extra content for existing works.

This includes works such as:
- Taking an existing character and making it "evil"
- Updating someone else's work
- Content that requires an existing creation to function, such as patches, palette packs and so forth

However does not cover works that, while using random bits from other authors, are also yours by merit, such as for example building a functioning (therefore more than a sprite swap) Zangief from an existing Ryu. Such would belong in the main Releases board.

As you can see it's rather easy to understand.
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 06:26:52 pm by shamrock

Valodim

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#9  April 21, 2009, 06:23:11 pm
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Laxxe23

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#10  April 21, 2009, 06:25:35 pm
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  • Aka ShadesTeam/Zeckle
damn val beat me to it shamrock read the second line of his first quote
Shades 2 site:Shades of Manhattan

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#11  April 21, 2009, 06:25:56 pm
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  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
LOL Byakko smacked me in the face with an edit of his post LOL.

One line became half a page.

DKDC

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#12  April 21, 2009, 06:40:04 pm
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KFM is a character, not a stage, so I hardly see what he could have copy-pasted from KFM into his stage if he had indeed been talking about the character and not the guy.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

arthur69

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#13  April 21, 2009, 07:02:25 pm
  • **
  • "Ware yori sugure mono wa nashi."
    • www.brokenmugenhr.com
Quote
"Kung fu man" the admin of random select have released the sf 2 balrog stage in HR resolution (640*480).

it seems clear to me...



We will release this stage on HD based on our proper sprites.

We want to implement the "crazy buffalo light effect" based on the existing HR level made by the random select admin.

As said Cyanide, for us

Quote
A move, or an effect, it's still essentially a release

And we consider this light effect is an effect. So in our opinion "it's still essentially a release".

Shamrock said to us it's an edit.

We just want to understand to can post correctly our work and don't ban because somebody consider "it's still essentially an edit"...

TY.

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#14  April 21, 2009, 07:07:49 pm
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  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
Cyanide said, April 21, 2009, 10:54:55 am
In the situation where you do all the work, but take a small facet out of someone elses. A move, or an effect, it's still essentially a release. Good manners dictates you tell people that you used their stuff but there is no obligation on you to do so.

You have to have done a substantial amount of work to differentiate what you've done from the original. Taking someone elses file and changing 2 numbers (or 5, whatever) does not count for this.

Ummm can you read?

Oh wait..............

You are trolling LOL.

Sing it with me,

here comes the ban

Bastard Mami

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#15  April 21, 2009, 07:15:40 pm
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WHY THE FUCK WOULD SOMEONE GET BANNED FOR POSTING IN THE WRONG FORUM !? WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS FORUM COME TO BE !?

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#16  April 21, 2009, 07:19:18 pm
  • ******
  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
Oh here we go.

arthur69

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#17  April 21, 2009, 07:22:04 pm
  • **
  • "Ware yori sugure mono wa nashi."
    • www.brokenmugenhr.com
I'm perfectly agree with konata...

You quote Cyanide who said like Byakko the INVERSE of you Shamrock.
What i want to know if who is right.

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#18  April 21, 2009, 07:27:40 pm
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  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
Byakko Cy and I have all told you the same thing.

But you know that Vyx. You just like causing problems. I mean you can't be that dense and use a computer. Also the fact that you know where KFM is an Admin, yet you do not post releases there makes me very suspicious.

I'm starting to think that you may just be one of the best trolls I have ever seen.

Your disruptions are a good enough reason for a ban.

Laxxe23

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#19  April 21, 2009, 07:29:32 pm
  • ****
  • Aka ShadesTeam/Zeckle
anyone else the lack of
-regards vyx at the end of the posts?
Shades 2 site:Shades of Manhattan

DKDC

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#20  April 21, 2009, 07:30:19 pm
  • ******
Quote
I'm perfectly agree with konata...
Except E (Konata) is joking.
Quote
You quote Cyanide who said like Byakko the INVERSE of you Shamrock.
No. Shamrock may have misunderstood the exact amount of work you intended to take (or not, I don't know, since apparently you didn't quote the whole content of his first reply), but so far here he's not actually saying "what you did is an edit". He is quoting posts that explain what "an edit" and "a release" are. You should be able to figure out if it's an edit or a release by yourself just from what Shamrock posted. Hence his question : can you read. And if you still insist on bringing back up what Shamrock said the very first time and ignoring the rest (especially since, as I understand, you didn't quote the entirety of his text) and given your records, then it could be easy to see your attitude here as the same thing as always : plain trolling.
And also, yes, wrong section.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 07:36:10 pm by Byakko

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#21  April 21, 2009, 07:42:55 pm
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  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
Oh no I told him edit. On the second quote.

He described a KFM release resize and spriteswap. Yeah edit.

He's right I told him where to put that release.

Now since dad said no, he's trying to go to mom, who also said no, but now he's coming back to dad saying, mom said yes, and dad is saying you're going to boarding school you little mailman baby.

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#22  April 21, 2009, 07:56:36 pm
  • ******
  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
Here just so I an Vyx's private messages can be public. Because that's the purpose of Private messages so that Vyx can try to find something to troll about publicly.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Maybe next time private can be private.

Valodim

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#23  April 21, 2009, 08:36:16 pm
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just to clear that part up: major edits can very well be posted in the releases section. I suppose everything where the editor has put as much work into it as the author of the original piece or more can be counted "major", for example Evil Ken definitely goes into releases even though it was originally based on Ken&Gang.

For cases where this distinction is not very clear, it's a mod's call. Where it's really unclear, it should be discussed among staff members.

What doesn't matter at all for this distinction, is whether someone has permission to use something or not.

I have not looked at it in detail, but generally on the matter of HD:
For characters, the coding is easily the bigger and more time consuming part, respriting a character in HD would certainly be an edit.
For a stage, however, the coding is a minor part, and not nearly as complex or variable (similar stages will have similar coding), so unless the sprites were "simply" ripped from a game, it's not an edit.

HOWEVER

It's interesting to see how this has never come up before, or was never an issue. Usually people just feel it's right to release something as an edit when the creation is still easily recognizable as being based on something, or when they think the main credit still belongs to the original author.

It's amazing how every fucking week as of lately, some stupid matter has come up around Vyx that has resulted in informal and formal warnings more than once. Geez.

DKDC

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#24  April 21, 2009, 10:17:49 pm
  • ******
Shamrock : actually if what they're taking from that stage released by KFM (the guy) is one animation (as in, the timings and maybe position and deltas and whatever, not the animation itself with the sprites), it's not really an issue to consider it as a release.
But that is if he indeed mean only ONE animation. What he told you through PM and what he's saying here are indeed vastly different. In your PM, he's sounding like he's spriteswapping the thing and keeps the entire stage's .def file with due adjustments - that would be an edit. Now in this topic, he's saying it's only for that "Buffalo" animation - if it's only that, it can pass as a release.
When he's doing his best to keep the question so unclear, it's a really damn stupid move.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:21:19 pm by Byakko

Shamrock

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#25  April 21, 2009, 10:24:31 pm
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  • Somebody PM when Caddie is no longer a mod.
Agreed.

arthur69

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#26  April 21, 2009, 11:22:19 pm
  • **
  • "Ware yori sugure mono wa nashi."
    • www.brokenmugenhr.com
Quote
But that is if he indeed mean only ONE animation. What he told you through PM and what he's saying here are indeed vastly different. In your PM, he's sounding like he's spriteswapping the thing and keeps the entire stage's .def file with due adjustments - that would be an edit. Now in this topic, he's saying it's only for that "Buffalo" animation - if it's only that, it can pass as a release.
When he's doing his best to keep the question so unclear, it's a really damn stupid move.

Agreed too. That's the explanation i was looking for. TY Valodim, cyanide, byakko, shamrock and everybody to took the time to be clear.
Sorry if i wasn't clear myself. I tried to be...

Topic resolved.

Cyanide

Re: Edit or not edit ? that is the question.
#27  April 22, 2009, 08:55:01 am
  • ******
  • Legendary XIII
  • I am the eye of the storm to come!
    • New Zealand
    • network.mugenguild.com/cyanide/
Well hooray for progress.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.
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