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"Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts (Read 4076 times)

Started by kingofM.U.G.E.N., October 26, 2008, 08:22:17 am
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kingofM.U.G.E.N.

"Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#1  October 26, 2008, 08:22:17 am
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Alright I just saw "Expelled", the movie with Ben Stein narrating.

What I don't get is why do people have to say that Religion and Science can't go together. And the evidence supporting "Darwinism" is really sketchy. I mean the chances of getting a living being out of the Primordial Mud/Soup/Whatever is astounding. You'd have to have 250 protiens together in a certain order, and being together a certain way. It's like running a slot machine, getting the grand prize, and having to do it 249 more times. It not likely at all, like a 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chance. And these scientists say that there is no possibility of intellegent design or a god. But it is still quite possible. There is less and less academic freedom in the colleges and schools, so why can't we just teach both? It's possible for BOTH to be true, but it seems that only one can be taught in schools nowadays.

I highly recommend you pick up this movie for yourself and form your own opinion from it.

Thoughts?

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Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#2  October 26, 2008, 09:05:28 am
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kingofM.U.G.E.N. said, October 26, 2008, 08:22:17 am
And these scientists say that there is no possibility of intellegent design or a god. But it is still quite possible.
Intelligent design often is associated with the six thousand year old earth thereby rejecting all of the fossil record and carbon dating.  I didn't see the movie, but if you'd ask scientists if it's acceptable to even theorize that at least single cell organisms were intelligently designed, they'd mostly agree.

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

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kingofM.U.G.E.N.

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#3  October 26, 2008, 09:11:20 am
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Yes but people were being fired from their jobs for suggesting so.

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Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#4  October 26, 2008, 09:27:55 am
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You only know as much as they'll let you know on those situations.  All you know is that they were fired and that they partially believe ID.  You don't know if there were other circumstances and they just claimed that ID was the only reason they were fired.

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

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DKDC

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#5  October 26, 2008, 12:23:37 pm
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Quote
I mean the chances of getting a living being out of the Primordial Mud/Soup/Whatever is astounding. You'd have to have 250 protiens together in a certain order, and being together a certain way. It's like running a slot machine, getting the grand prize, and having to do it 249 more times.
Do you have a problem with how it tooks millions of years for that to happen ? It's like the saying that goes, give a typewriter to an indefinite number of monkeys for an indefinite time and someday one of them is going to type Victor Hugo's Les Misérables just by chance. The keypoint being the few millions of years inbetween. It's just chance.
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Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#6  October 26, 2008, 04:19:12 pm
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Most people can honestly say that the Earth is not six thousand years old. Some accept the fact that it can be older, saying that the words in the bible are very cryptic and metaphorical. Whatever religious book you might read never talked about the dinosaurs because humans and dinosaurs never existed, so that might give the reason why the earth seems younger than it was. I mean, we are the same civilized bunch that said the Earth was flat!
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Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#7  October 26, 2008, 04:23:15 pm
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Because we didn't know any better.  For all we know we're totally wrong about gravity and 1000 years into the future everyone will laugh at us.

Snake

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#8  October 26, 2008, 05:49:16 pm
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thing that stops me from ever watching this movie is how much time bill stein wastes/wasted before the movie trying to prove that Evolution doesn't explain how we got here, how thermo dynamics work, gravity, etc etc....

reason being cause the dumbfuck doesn't know evolution doesn't have anything to do with those, hence why i'll never watch his movie. the guy had a couple of appearances where he does, in fact, say "evolution doesn't prove *above three points*" when evolution just explains how lifeforms adapt...

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Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#9  October 26, 2008, 10:05:50 pm
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The problem with this dilemma is that people can't separate evolution from abiogenesis nor intelligent design from creationism . . .

Cyanide

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#10  October 26, 2008, 11:42:55 pm
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I can believe single cell organisms were intelligently designed. Us though, we contain many flaws. For example, why is our hole for air in the perfect place to be clogged up by food or water? Would it not make more sense to have it higher up? And the windpipe in a less vulnerable place? Like behind the oes... throat.

Or toes. We don't really need 5. We could get by quite comfortably with the big toe and the rest formed into a pad or something. You wouldn't stub your little toe so fucking often that way.

If god designed us he did a shit poor job and should have been sacked. I'm with Terry Pratchett. I think some apprentice did it when god wasn't watching.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Peter H.

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#11  October 27, 2008, 05:37:27 pm
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You know, you're right.  He obviously didn't think shit through at all, especially not the template for creating lifeforms (you'll see a similarity in structure between a majority of animals and humans), our functionality and especially our intelligence.  Also, fuck the fact that he's a God and may have a different view on what he deems necessary for an animal to live, rather than making it convient by our standards, because all animals should be created completely impervious to everything.
Good news for all of you.

I'm banned forever.

Please, just let the ban quietly pass and whatever you do, I beg you, DO NOT CHEER. Do not celebrate that you've won about the fact that I'm banned forever. Let it slide, PLEASE DO NOT CHEER. Don't cause me to shitpost again. I didn't even recall making a shitty post before I got perma'd. I hated this forum anyway. It doesn't even feel I'm taking part in a MUGEN forum.

Well, ungoodbye to you all and I hope you all burn in hell.

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Shamrock

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#12  October 27, 2008, 05:55:17 pm
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Intelligent design has many merits and many scientist believe in some form of it but there is no proof. The problem is these same scientist know for a fact that the crap in the bible is just crap in the bible and the idea of mixing intelligent design with the bible is completely moronic. There's the problem people refuse to say the truth the bible is not literal. Some parts are more history than crazy shit and most of those parts are written by first hand accounts but stuff like Adam and Eve were written by Moses and he wasn't present and was educated as one of Pharaohs sons. The Adam and Eve story could originally be an Egyptian Idea and the first theory of Evolution.

If you look at the algorithms they have discovered concerning evolution and the Physics of well everything in the Universe the math is very exact. As in if you recreated the Big Bang the exact same thing would happen even us being alive and typing this shit would happen again. Even Chaos theory disappears if you go far enough back in time. Math is Math.

Because of these programing you could theorize that the math is to perfect and that something made the physics (Programing) The same way a computer programmer creates the Physics of a simulated world.

So far there is no proof but when you consider how perfect the Math is that even evolution can be broken down to a mathematical algorithm intelligent design warrants a degree of recognition as a possibility.

The problem once again is people who scream about intelligent design are screaming about the bible and heaven and hell so no one will listen to a crazy person. Science is just a bunch of weights and measures. If you can't weight measure or count it then you can't say it's scientific. Intelligent design you can measure so there for it can be studied. The bible has already been measured and it turns out it is false.

Bastard Walt

Off-topic feedback.
#13  October 27, 2008, 06:13:42 pm
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Wall of text ... again. You're hard to read, your posts are lengthily hard to ignore, and you seriously need to improve your synthesis skills + punctuation.

"We live in a world of perpetual outrage"

Shamrock

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#14  October 27, 2008, 06:16:42 pm
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It's not my fault I was intelligently designed to fuck up like that.

OZ

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#15  October 27, 2008, 08:10:43 pm
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Don't worry.
He said that the spacing in my paragraphs hurt his eyes at one point.
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Bastard Mami

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#16  October 27, 2008, 10:35:02 pm
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walt is a delicate person, I get it, ok.

kingofM.U.G.E.N. said, October 26, 2008, 08:22:17 am
It's like running a slot machine, getting the grand prize, and having to do it 249 more times. It not likely at all, like a 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chance.
Thoughts?

Let's play a game, I will roll 4 dices, if I get 6s in the 4 of them I can punch you in the face, if I don't I can just try again. There is no limit to the amount of times I want to roll the dices so I can keep on plying for months if I wish, rolling them every 5 seconds. Now, who is going to get punched in the face?

Davod Sirloin

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#17  October 27, 2008, 10:36:17 pm
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4 dice?  Pffff.  Lame.

Play Yahtzee.

Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#18  October 27, 2008, 11:35:08 pm
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Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

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c00p

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#19  October 28, 2008, 12:19:48 am
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But giving abiogenesis "an unlimited amount of time to happen cuz is the only thing we could do or the whole shit comes down" is not super-scientific  :(

Valodim

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#20  October 28, 2008, 12:53:02 am
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If I were (a) god with the desire to create puny creates such as humans, I would certainly do so by giving one single molecule a slight pinch, which would consequently form together the proteins, trigger evolution and create men. So what if it takes some billion years. I'm friggin' god in this metaphor. Create people directly, how lame is that?

If anything, god is the answer to "why", not "how". Creationism is ok as long as it's taught as an ideology, not sold as fact.

What your original post, and for that matter every single pro-intelligent-design argument comes down to, is "omg I can't imagine it it must be supernatural."

Davod Sirloin

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#21  October 28, 2008, 01:05:20 am
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c00p

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#22  October 28, 2008, 01:33:43 am
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Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
I hope you're not talkng 'bout my post, since i wan't refering to evolution (which i agree is the most probable -so far- thing that happened with life in earth), but the fact life began to exist randomly from a ridiculously tiny chance of dead elements association . . .

Bastard Walt

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#23  October 28, 2008, 01:42:53 am
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If by "Ridiculously Tiny" you mean being in one of the few planets or stars with the correct distance to a Heat-emiting star for it to bear life, well then, you're pretty much discarding the initial argument ::)

Read [E]'s reasoning.
"We live in a world of perpetual outrage"

c00p

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#24  October 28, 2008, 01:44:10 am
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the placement of the planet is not definitive

Bastard Walt

When the Primordial Soup took place, the Planet's temperature was a lot higher
#25  October 28, 2008, 01:47:46 am
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You're quite that Skeptical Guy, aren't you?
"We live in a world of perpetual outrage"

Spoonman

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#26  October 28, 2008, 02:18:58 am
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Back in the good ol' days. I would have loved participating, but now I'm just not in the mood. May be later...

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[/center]

Bastard Walt

j/k :P
#27  October 28, 2008, 02:51:12 am
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Thanks for the heads up, we were actively waiting for your input :uhoh:
"We live in a world of perpetual outrage"

Lobo

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#28  October 28, 2008, 03:09:10 am
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Re: j/k :P
#29  October 28, 2008, 03:16:54 am
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[/center]

Peter H.

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#30  October 28, 2008, 03:46:43 am
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shamrock said, October 27, 2008, 05:55:17 pm
Intelligent design has many merits and many scientist believe in some form of it but there is no proof. The problem is these same scientist know for a fact that the crap in the bible is just crap in the bible and the idea of mixing intelligent design with the bible is completely moronic. There's the problem people refuse to say the truth the bible is not literal. Some parts are more history than crazy shit and most of those parts are written by first hand accounts but stuff like Adam and Eve were written by Moses and he wasn't present and was educated as one of Pharaohs sons. The Adam and Eve story could originally be an Egyptian Idea and the first theory of Evolution.

If you look at the algorithms they have discovered concerning evolution and the Physics of well everything in the Universe the math is very exact. As in if you recreated the Big Bang the exact same thing would happen even us being alive and typing this shit would happen again. Even Chaos theory disappears if you go far enough back in time. Math is Math.

Because of these programing you could theorize that the math is to perfect and that something made the physics (Programing) The same way a computer programmer creates the Physics of a simulated world.

So far there is no proof but when you consider how perfect the Math is that even evolution can be broken down to a mathematical algorithm intelligent design warrants a degree of recognition as a possibility.

The problem once again is people who scream about intelligent design are screaming about the bible and heaven and hell so no one will listen to a crazy person. Science is just a bunch of weights and measures. If you can't weight measure or count it then you can't say it's scientific. Intelligent design you can measure so there for it can be studied. The bible has already been measured and it turns out it is false.

Not quite sure what you were trying to preach here (hard to read), but I wanted to add this piece of information:  scientists have admitted that even the big bang (which is still a "theory" mind you) is not necessarily garaunteed to even form matter - they've done simulations with the variables and calculations in mind and still wound up hypothetical universes without matter in them.  This is why we have things like the Super Hadron Collider to form shit that was there during the big bang's.....bang.  >_>
Good news for all of you.

I'm banned forever.

Please, just let the ban quietly pass and whatever you do, I beg you, DO NOT CHEER. Do not celebrate that you've won about the fact that I'm banned forever. Let it slide, PLEASE DO NOT CHEER. Don't cause me to shitpost again. I didn't even recall making a shitty post before I got perma'd. I hated this forum anyway. It doesn't even feel I'm taking part in a MUGEN forum.

Well, ungoodbye to you all and I hope you all burn in hell.

- Peter

DKDC

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#31  October 28, 2008, 09:47:30 pm
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Munin

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#32  October 29, 2008, 03:33:45 am
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OZ

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#33  October 29, 2008, 04:10:23 am
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Theories can be proven.
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Munin

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#34  October 29, 2008, 04:15:18 am
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My bad then.

c00p

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#35  October 29, 2008, 04:29:16 am
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A proven theory wouldn't be a fact?
Anyway, "macroevolution" (hell, you must be tired of hear this, yet you keep on getting this wrong) is not something proven, sorry  . . . Microevolution on the other hand, yes.
What has been observed through man history is something more like "adaptation" actually, there are no records of "evolution" creating new organs or such, what is commonly taken by evolution is actually changes the species develop to survive (or be able to make -insert whatever here- better), which is something a lot more accurate to the original darwin idea. Problem is that darwins toughts were used as "what if" . . . and people with a lot of imagination and disbelief towards the "traditional teaching" said -so maybe if we go back, dunno, millons of millons years back we were just cells that "adapted" and evolved and gathered complex organs . . . yes, that's gotta be-

A simple version by c00per

Davod Sirloin

Nevermind that those are contradictory.
#36  October 29, 2008, 05:10:03 am
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Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#37  October 29, 2008, 06:01:41 am
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Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

Just No Point

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#38  October 29, 2008, 06:16:38 am
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I don't get it. Why is it hard to believe both?

Science says big bang > cool down > infinite time + chance = life actually formed on random planets scattered here and there across infinite space and time...

Uh... couldn't something God Like create the big bang? or the matter in the big bang? Existence in of itself is a paradox. There should be nothing. But nothing is something... so there shouldn't even be nothing.

If anything God or creation or whatever made the nothings and somethings exist has to be the embodiment of paradox. So yeah. I believe in God... maybe god is not the same one spoke of in religions... maybe just a combined essence of us, life, matter, and paradox... but whatever forces out there are keeping everything running and going on for infinity I call that God

Maybe it's sentient, algorithmic, random, or something that our minds cannot wrap around. I wouldn't mind watching the documentary being discussed though. I like Ben Stein... though he's no Bill Nye

c00p

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#39  October 29, 2008, 06:18:21 am
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Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 06:23:33 am by c00per

Just No Point

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#40  October 29, 2008, 06:21:28 am
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Cyanide

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#41  October 29, 2008, 07:36:40 am
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Quote
What has been observed through man history is something more like "adaptation" actually, there are no records of "evolution" creating new organs or such,
Adaptation is marked as a facet of evolution

Anyway, we don't know if new organs have been created or not. Our written records only go back so far and certainly don't look at all animals/birds/reptiles. In addition for quite a while using a knife on humans as surgery was a nono. Classed as some form of witchcraft or whatever. Possibly cos it involved blood.

You know some reptiles can change gender without surgical intervention right?

We've got a little bit of at least removal of an organ. The appendix. It has no purpose in a human any more and has devolved into something thin that can only get infected right now. In ruminants however it's still a useful, and in use organ.

Not that any of that really proves diddly squat.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Bastard Mami

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#42  October 29, 2008, 04:10:20 pm
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Just No Point said, October 29, 2008, 06:16:38 am
Uh... couldn't something God Like create the big bang? or the matter in the big bang? Existence in of itself is a paradox. There should be nothing. But nothing is something... so there shouldn't even be nothing.

er.. no, it'¿s a well known fact that the big bang created god.

Just No Point

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#43  October 29, 2008, 04:30:20 pm
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Then my God is the Big Bang?

Why did that sound so sexual? :S

Valodim

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#44  October 29, 2008, 04:31:49 pm
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Bastard Mami

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#45  October 29, 2008, 04:36:02 pm
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It's a theory.

OZ

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#46  October 29, 2008, 07:28:49 pm
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Just No Point said, October 29, 2008, 04:30:20 pm
Then my God is the Big Bang?

Well, my hell is the closet, I'm stuck inside; can't see the light.
And my heaven is a nice house in the sky; it's got central heating, and I'm alright.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.
ಠ_ಠ

Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#47  October 30, 2008, 04:59:50 am
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Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

c001357

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#48  October 30, 2008, 05:31:45 am
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Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#49  October 30, 2008, 10:25:53 am
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Me? ???

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

c001357

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#50  October 30, 2008, 11:29:32 am
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OZ

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#51  October 30, 2008, 02:55:11 pm
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Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#52  October 30, 2008, 03:00:13 pm
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Bastard Mami

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#53  October 31, 2008, 03:54:09 pm
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Djoulz

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#54  October 31, 2008, 11:29:32 pm
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God must be laughing his ass off looking at us trying to explain something we can't comprehend right now

Cyanide

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#55  November 01, 2008, 06:36:15 am
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We comprehend it fine. What we don't have is universal agreement.

I say "god doesn't exist"
You say "yes he does"

Provide proof in either direction is completely impossible. Best you can do is convince the other person to your point of view. You cannot actually change the facts in either situation.

Course, why he doesn't just manifest himself and wander round fixing stuff i don't know. Please don't bring up free will, according to the bible he's quite happy to crush that underfoot whenever he feels like it.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

OZ

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#56  November 01, 2008, 06:24:08 pm
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There is no way to prove that there is no god.
Finding no evidence of god's exsistance will only cause believers to state that we just haven't found him yet, that god can only be found if god so desires, or that only true believers can see god.
It is impossible to prove god's exsistance. (To those that do not already fullheartedly devote their lives to god.)
Unless someone can book God for an interview or a press conference, the only evidence lies in the miracles and phenomenon of creation and life. Science will always find the underlying cause for these phenomenon, preventing people from simply attributing them to god.
ಠ_ಠ

Peter H.

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#57  November 01, 2008, 08:52:32 pm
  • ***
  • My surname is not Foster, FYI.
Let's not forget that even if some all powerful being did come down to earth and start "fixing things" we still wouldn't know if it is God.  Does anyone know what God looks like?  Does it make the first powerful being that has sentience and starts communicating with us it?  It's all a faith thing.

And about God meddling in our affairs, maybe he isn't perfect like the Bible says he is, or "perfection" is different when it comes to him, being the rules around him are different.  Maybe he can change his mind, don't you think?
Good news for all of you.

I'm banned forever.

Please, just let the ban quietly pass and whatever you do, I beg you, DO NOT CHEER. Do not celebrate that you've won about the fact that I'm banned forever. Let it slide, PLEASE DO NOT CHEER. Don't cause me to shitpost again. I didn't even recall making a shitty post before I got perma'd. I hated this forum anyway. It doesn't even feel I'm taking part in a MUGEN forum.

Well, ungoodbye to you all and I hope you all burn in hell.

- Peter

Messatsu

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#58  November 01, 2008, 10:23:35 pm
  • ******
  • In after lock
    • mugenguild.com/~messatsu/index.html

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

OZ

Re: "Expelled" with Ben Stein Thoughts
#59  November 01, 2008, 10:27:20 pm
  • ******
  • ಠ_ಠ
How do you do that?
ಠ_ಠ
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