Titiln said, December 15, 2014, 08:43:44 pmmaking this issue about race guarantees it will get nowherecan you explain to me how this is not a race issue. im being totally sincere.
It may be one, but talking about it as one is guaranteed to get nowhere. If you want to solve the issue, you have to address the underlying problem - that the cops can kill people just because they're afraid, then it turns out they were wrong and the guy really wasn't a threat at all, and yet they get away with murder. Focusing on the race issue is a sure fire way for this to never get anywhere. It's happened before, several times.I myself don't think it's some open racism, they didn't necessarily think "he's Black, I can shoot him", but it's a social thing, they were more scared of the guy because he was Black, than they would have been if he had been white. Expectations built by social habits. Even without being racist, there's a big chance you're going to react to a random Black guy differently than you would to a random white guy.
Nope, it's a race issue. In an oppressive country where these atrocities continuously happen to minorities being profiled with such consistency and regularity that it becomes a stereotype of american law enforcement, it absolutely is a race issue. Attempting to ignore the factor of race in situations where cops think less of an individual and thus feel it acceptable to murder him/her in cold blood is how we get nowhere. Progression reaches a screeching halt when people are okay with being willfully naive. Of course there are other factors but I fail to see how anyone could rationally argue that any (or at the very least a majority) of these issues are not "race issues".It's very easy to try to write off the "race issue" because it's uncomfortable to talk about. Even to Byakko's point, if there are different social stigma surrounding those of different races due to a society's expectations that are leading to their deaths, that's about the definition of a race issue. I personally think it is very important for people of all races to become more comfortable incorporating the issue of race into the conversations where it applies, as running from it or acting as if it doesn't exist makes progressing as a society impossible.Tl;dr: It is a race issue. Deal with it. No I mean LITERALLY help us deal with it. We need support, not apathy.
So uh it turns out the key witness in the trial has a history of mental illness, racism, and lying to the police, and federal investigators were suspicious of her account.
black people aren't the only ones on the receiving end of police brutality. go look up some other cases. these took me a couple minutes on googlehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/28/james-boyd-shooting_n_5052370.htmlhttp://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/us/california-homeless-beating-verdict/http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicago-police-found-guilty-covering-bartender-beating/story?id=17716840http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-kevin-maloney-testifies-officer-richard-kern-baton-michael-mineo-article-1.193731making this an issue about race only divides efforts to bring some kind of solution to the problem. saying this is just cops being racist is misguided and disregards victims of other races
Titiln said, December 17, 2014, 04:17:26 amSpoiler, click to toggle visibiltyblack people aren't the only ones on the receiving end of police brutality. go look up some other cases. these took me a couple minutes on googlehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/28/james-boyd-shooting_n_5052370.htmlhttp://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/us/california-homeless-beating-verdict/http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicago-police-found-guilty-covering-bartender-beating/story?id=17716840http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-kevin-maloney-testifies-officer-richard-kern-baton-michael-mineo-article-1.193731making this an issue about race only divides efforts to bring some kind of solution to the problem. saying this is just cops being racist is misguided and disregards victims of other racesJust No Point said, December 17, 2014, 04:36:55 amcops are hate groups now?While I totally understand how making this a racial issue may ultimately turn people off, I want to expand on Gritsmaster's point because I'm not sure many of us are grasping the seriousness of the issue. What Grits is saying, just as Byakko said, is that people are inclined to react to blacks differently from the way they would react to whites. You can find examples of similar cases that happen to whites, that doesn't change the fact that by and large these incidents happen predominantly to blacks to the point where our communities have come to view it as a regularity; are you trying to suggest that all of these people are just being illogical and biased? For me, I've had to face a myriad of stereotypes because I'm black (as I mentioned in my examples before) without even posting about the amount of times persons whom I've spoken to have condescended to me and superimposed beliefs onto me stemming only from the fact that I'm black. Being presumed to be committing a crime, being presumed to be inclined toward violence, etc. gets annoying very fast, and constantly having to guard against certain actions because, "someone will think I have a gun" (that's a hypothetical), is crazy. For me, what really gets at me was having the cops called on me twice as I ran for trains because someone assumed I stole something; I can only imagine what could have happened to me if I had been shot simply because someone assumed I had committed a crime. Then I have to associate that with: "I shot this black guy because he threatened me; I shot this black guy because he was violent toward me; I shot this black guy because I thought he had a gun" -- with no indictments handed down. Then there's the Rodney King beating which.... I don't even want to talk about how fucking crazy that crap was and how racially charged it definitely was..Again these videos really attest to the problem.Bike Thief:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawMVandalism:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9odAuzz6kB0Edit:Personally, I find the Mike Brown shooting extremely disturbing. I personally cannot justify shooting at someone who punched me then ran off, even if that person did turn around and start at me. A gun is a lethal fucking weapon; that kid who punched me, --"punched me"-- didn't shoot me, didn't try to kill me, he "punched" me.... Really? I need to apply deadly force for something as silly as that?@Titiln:I was shocked that you said that Garner should not have resisted the cops, "especially" if he had been arrested several times before. I took it as though you meant to level a certain amount of blame on him. You need to understand that cops often harass people especially in NYC and LA; they have terrible reputations. Stop and Frisk became a humongous issue pertaining to harassment in NYC and one that divided communities (and boroughs) along racial lines. And just to let you know, you can be arrested simply for fitting a description.
Solving police brutality is a more realistic goal than solving racism, not that the latter should be ignored. One is an issue of preventing cops from becoming dangerously aggressive (possible given the right course of action); the other involves changing the psychology and mindstate of thousands upon thousands (you know what they say about old dogs and new tricks).Though the two intertwine in this issue, treating people differently because of race is separate from the police being able to do whatever the fuck they please without suffering notable consequences. I'd like to lessen the threat of a cop being a potential murderer to all people.
Gritsmaster said, December 17, 2014, 04:35:20 amSo if a klansmen stabs a black guy its all good because people of all races get stabbedcoocan you explain this fucking trainwreck of an analogy pleaseGentleOne said, December 17, 2014, 05:08:20 amI took as though you meant to level a certain amount of blame on him.but i was. what he was doing is illegal (which is bullshit, but that's another subject) and he resisted arrest. if he did neither of those things he'd be alive. of course it was the cops' actions that led to his death (be it because of the choking or because of his poor health), but it's silly to think he has zero amount of blame
Ah. Okay. I understand where you're coming from a bit more now. I thought that you were excusing the cops' behaviour(on some level) for a second there.
Titiln said, December 17, 2014, 05:38:20 amGritsmaster said, December 17, 2014, 04:35:20 amSo if a klansmen stabs a black guy its all good because people of all races get stabbedcoocan you explain this fucking trainwreck of an analogy please...do I really have to? While cops as a whole don't directly relate to hate groups (obviously), the concept of "it happens to everyone therefore it's not racist" is a rather obnoxious stance that gets taken a bit too frequently to avoid talking about it.Niitris has it spot on, I think. Police brutality is definitely the bigger picture, but to pretend racism in non-existent in these instances is silly.
Titiln said, December 17, 2014, 04:17:26 amblack people aren't the only ones on the receiving end of police brutality. go look up some other cases. these took me a couple minutes on googlehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/28/james-boyd-shooting_n_5052370.htmlhttp://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/us/california-homeless-beating-verdict/http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicago-police-found-guilty-covering-bartender-beating/story?id=17716840http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-kevin-maloney-testifies-officer-richard-kern-baton-michael-mineo-article-1.193731making this an issue about race only divides efforts to bring some kind of solution to the problem. saying this is just cops being racist is misguided and disregards victims of other racesThis. Reminds me of a story about how I got profiled because I looked like the perp. Just when I was gonna walk home because of that nonsense pissed off, A white guy who was at the playground I was at then told me about how he was profiled the same way.These types of problems SEEM like race issues, but more of cops becoming over-suspicious and then immediately going with a "Shoot first, ask questions never" mentality.Hell, I knew this was somewhat coming over how many times I've read and heard stories of cops shooting family pets just because, not even assessing if they are dangerous or not. It's only a matter of time before they disregard assessment with people.
Xhominid said, December 17, 2014, 09:08:37 amThis. Reminds me of a story about how I got profiled because I looked like the perp. Just when I was gonna walk home because of that nonsense pissed off, A white guy who was at the playground I was at then told me about how he was profiled the same way.These types of problems SEEM like race issues, but more of cops becoming over-suspicious and then immediately going with a "Shoot first, ask questions never" mentality.You are missing the point. Where incidents of that nature do occur outside of the black race they are FAR more common concerning the black race! Add to that getting shot when unarmed to have the defendant say, "He threatened me, he was violent toward me, etc." then being acquitted or going un-indicted specifically because of literal racial biases stemming from stereotypes, coupled with the [unarmed] black person not being alive to defend themselves.In America people have a subconscious belief that "blacks commit crimes/blacks are violent/blacks steal/blacks are illogical/etc." I've posted these videos and I'll post them again because they are very important. They highlight the veracity of the stereotypes blacks face by and large and the nature of the issue that innocent blacks have to face when they get profiled undeservedly. Pay attention to the differences between their reactions. Bike Thief:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawMVandalism:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9odAuzz6kB0And please, it really seems like you're selectively reading posts without considering the statistics that rebut your point.Edit:Some people tend to mention debatable statistics regarding the predominance of crimes being committed by blacks and often use that to explain(rationalize) their treatment and the reactions to them by police. Whether or not that is true these commenters fail to recognize that each black person is an individual and should be seen as such. If I have not committed a crime, I don't want to be presumed to be committing a crime and I don't want to be shot because certain very limited segments of my race carry guns, and where the person who eventually shoots me saying, 'I thought he had one... [a gun that is...].'
http://www.pe.com/articles/ill-756475-fatally-appeared.htmlCops shot a subdued retarded man for breaking and entering even as the family that owned the house pleaded with them not to.Bonus, a 69 year old man was able to calm him down and put him to sleep before the cops arrived and shot him for refusing to comply.
