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Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN? (Read 2163 times)

Started by DNZRX768, October 21, 2013, 01:45:18 am
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DNZRX768

Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#1  October 21, 2013, 01:45:18 am
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For a large fraction of the time I participated here on MFG, I have held onto the notion that simple hitboxes are better and the over complicated ones are stupid and to be ridiculed.

Now, imagine my surprise when I found out that Skullgirls had hitboxes that flew in the face of what I have been told here about the proper way of doing hitboxes.

The real question is this:

Why exactly did we, MUGEN Fighters Guild, have accepted the notion that simpler hitboxes are better? I vaguely recall reading about MUGEN slowdown due to too many clsn boxes on a character, but I can't seem to find that article again.
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#2  October 21, 2013, 01:50:19 am
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They take more time to set up, there's slowdown on older machines, they're a pain to look at and adjust, and the actual differences tend to be miniscule anyways.
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Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#3  October 21, 2013, 02:09:58 am
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they tend to be more innacurate related to movement as well, just imagine someone shooting a bullet and the bullet gets an accurate clsn, so one tick the bullet is covering 5 pixels, then the next tick the bullet is covering another 5 pixels 100 pixels away from where it was so it slips past the enemy.

Cyanide

Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#4  October 21, 2013, 09:06:19 am
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As i've said before. Hitboxes are there to do what the animation can't.

You have a frame in an uppercut where your fist is low. You have a second frame where it's above your head. Assuming the damage only occurs precisely where the fist is on that second frame there are a good quantity of characters you'd simply miss, but your fist DOES pass through that space and should hit things on its way there. Clsn2's shouldn't nullify this.

At the same time, me hitting you should not be dependant on what frame of your stance you're in. Nor should things like arms or tails really be painful during a fight, so they should miss.

Skullgirls has shit clsn's and they should not be used as a benchmark.


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DNZRX768

Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#5  October 21, 2013, 01:15:34 pm
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Cyanide said, October 21, 2013, 09:06:19 am
As i've said before. Hitboxes are there to do what the animation can't.

You have a frame in an uppercut where your fist is low. You have a second frame where it's above your head. Assuming the damage only occurs precisely where the fist is on that second frame there are a good quantity of characters you'd simply miss, but your fist DOES pass through that space and should hit things on its way there. Clsn2's shouldn't nullify this.

At the same time, me hitting you should not be dependant on what frame of your stance you're in. Nor should things like arms or tails really be painful during a fight, so they should miss.

Skullgirls has shit clsn's and they should not be used as a benchmark.

I see.

So you are saying that the way we are doing the CLSNs is the correct way and Skullgirls is not doing the CLSNs properly?

I see. But the question becomes why no one has called out the developers on their improper CLSNs?
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#6  October 21, 2013, 01:20:46 pm
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I just checked out Skullgirls' hitboxes. Dear god they're horrible.

Yes, the way we generally do hitboxes here are better.

EDIT: looking a little further, people say glitches occur due to shit hitboxes and there are people even making suggestions to the devs to make the hitboxes more consistent.
Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 01:27:16 pm by Websta

DNZRX768

Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#7  October 21, 2013, 05:12:45 pm
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I just wonder why Skullgirls have bad CLSN's.

I bet some of the developers have worked in the Fighting Game Industry, so they should know the proper way to do CLSNs.
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#8  October 21, 2013, 05:20:01 pm
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Actually, to be fair Skullgirls' animation is pretty smooth, your attack will actually have enough frames to hit anybody from beginning to end so you don't actually need to simulate motion with bigger collision boxes or anything like that. A move wont slip past an opponent because your animation will have enough frames.
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#9  October 21, 2013, 05:20:15 pm
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well, there are professional developers who make shitty games and last years doing so.

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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#10  October 22, 2013, 06:18:36 am
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Look at Squigly, her hitboxes are fine.
Someone there obviously knows how to do it properly, and was not the one who made the first set of hitboxes for the rest of the cast.

On another note, good luck making balance changes with 30+ boxes per frame

Cyanide

Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#11  October 22, 2013, 06:58:03 am
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Skullgirls has bad clsn's for the same reason some mugen characters have bad clsns. People don't realise that 1 square or rectangle can do the work of 70 stupid ones.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#12  October 22, 2013, 03:48:43 pm
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For the record (my 2 cents) remember when NOT TOO LONG AGO the hitboxes for SF2 were finally switched on, and we found out some pretty stupid shit in there?



I'll be honest with you, it made me reconsider my perception of "simpler boxes" in general. Like, it's a good way to find balance without messing around with Priorities (like it was an important conversation in MUGEN a few years back). You'd define how hittable you wanted a move to be based on how you drew hitboxes, instead of assigning a higher/lower numerical priority to a move.

In any case, this all has helped the mugen community to grow in knowledge. STILL, SG'S HITBOXES ARE SHIT.
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#13  October 22, 2013, 04:03:39 pm
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walt said, October 22, 2013, 03:48:43 pm

Eh ? Well, from the top of my head, something like Ashura Senkuu -> crouch kick, or simply, low Tiger Shot acting as a meaty ? (it passes through Sagat on that first frame, but when he gets to the second, the Shot is still well placed and hits him in the legs, from behind)
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#14  October 22, 2013, 05:17:01 pm
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Wow.

Why do I get the impression that the MUGEN Fighters Guild is the only place to get clsns done correctly for a majority of their works?
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#15  October 22, 2013, 05:57:54 pm
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@ Byakko

I'm pretty sure there were a lot of deep discussions about the complexity and placement of the Boxes within the SF team back in the 90s. They make a lot of sense inside the closed environment that is SF2, with its limited cast and variables (only 1 broken ass character with weird diagonal air projectile, no EX moves with strategic properties). My point was, the one I recall the most was a Chun Li air punch frame that had CLSNs way back on the back foot's heel. I'm sure that served a purpose, but it just looked damn weird.

In any case, my point still stands. Hitboxes can help to provide balance for certain situations ... but in Skullgirls where they just AUTO CLSN everything, it looks pretty stupid for this day and age.
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Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#16  October 22, 2013, 08:57:03 pm
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I think it's not really worth the effort to make complex hitboxes when for most cases one or two rectangles are enough. I remember that people was surprised that KOF characters had two CLSNs at most when they discovered the debug dip switches for MVS.

And as far as I remember (I'm a pre-1.0 creator), if you didn't do it well (chances are you are screwing it) it messes with ground.front and ground.back and make it look like the characters are twitching if you push one against other.

P.S.: This bring back a lot of memories... I've been off this crap for years.

Niitris

Re: Hitboxes: What is the argument against very detailed hitboxes on MUGEN?
#17  October 22, 2013, 09:33:04 pm
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Yeah, I remember trying to use 3 CLSNs for characters at first (I believe most of Capcom's CPS2 fighters did this). It can work but usually the less, the better. Skullgirls can kinda get away with it because the gaps in animation are so small; if Capcom or SNK tried that with any of their older games nothing would look right.

DNZRX768 said, October 22, 2013, 05:17:01 pm
Why do I get the impression that the MUGEN Fighters Guild is the only place to get clsns done correctly for a majority of their works?

Because we're a knowledgeable group (well most of us anyway); can't speak for the rest of the Internet.
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