Bistard Wolf said, June 19, 2008, 04:51:18 amThe power return values might be accurate. I just got finished watching some CvS2 vids. I'd say though, that as it concerns Mugen, they are still pretty cheap. Do you realize you're talking about balance in Mugen ?
Legen-Wait for it!-dary Cybaster said, June 19, 2008, 10:05:05 amBistard Wolf said, June 19, 2008, 04:51:18 amThe power return values might be accurate. I just got finished watching some CvS2 vids. I'd say though, that as it concerns Mugen, they are still pretty cheap. Do you realize you're talking about balance in Mugen ?
Legen-Wait for it!-dary Cybaster said, June 19, 2008, 10:05:05 amBistard Wolf said, June 19, 2008, 04:51:18 amThe power return values might be accurate. I just got finished watching some CvS2 vids. I'd say though, that as it concerns Mugen, they are still pretty cheap. Do you realize you're talking about balance in Mugen ?Yes, I do. I'm really making this post because as I recall it, PotS is a major porponent of Balance in Mugen (he's got some topics here that seem to be on that point), and this stuff doesn't seem too balanced to me. Yes, I understand that this would be sacrificing accuracy for Balance, and I know that Balance a hard thing to achieve in Mugen, but what my last post is really challenging is the fact that PotS said:P.o.t.S. said, June 09, 2008, 06:19:54 amP.o.t.S. said, June 09, 2008, 02:36:00 amFor both the AI and the Human missing a Hyper has very little consequence because literally 3 attacks later they can pull on again.I'm assuming you based this one on Sakura as well, because she does get a lot of power from her Shououken's load of hits. Don't see any other moves that can fill the bar that quickly though.Also consider how much damage a char can dish out with one bar before saying they charge too fast/slow, for instance my chars get one stock faster than a KOF char, but also deal less damage with their supers.I'm saying the damage value is still pretty cheap, however accurate it may be . I'm also challenging the balance he seems to be talking about. Basides, tehre are many KOF creators who actively limit their Hyper Damage for teh sake of balance, actually, I believe that it is most of them that do that.Garuda said, June 19, 2008, 08:33:58 amI think all this video thing is quite ridiculous....IMHOMightyKombat said, June 19, 2008, 05:01:59 amWhats Power Return Value?If its returning power ina Super, that is kinda cheap.Yes, the Power Returnrate from when basic/special attacks hit, giving the char power toward a Hyper/Super.And thank you guys for the posts on your opinions.
By KOF creators, I hope you mean either : Vans, OrochiKOF97, Sander71113, IronMugen, K.O.D (and maybe 2 or 3 more). Any other creator will be disregarded.Also, the balancing you're talking about may very well be coming from this, as POTS is one of the only creators which uses the p2defmul parameter.
Yeong Woong said, June 19, 2008, 01:47:10 pmQuotemany KOF creators who actively limit their Hyper Damage for teh sake of balanceElaborate?Legen-Wait for it!-dary Cybaster said, June 19, 2008, 02:13:32 pmBy KOF creators, I hope you mean either : Vans, OrochiKOF97, Sander71113, IronMugen, K.O.D (and maybe 2 or 3 more). Any other creator will be disregarded.Also, the balancing you're talking about may very well be coming from this, as POTS is one of the only creators which uses the p2defmul parameter.- BTW I checked these with Mugen at 100% Health -If we are taking this from Hyper Damage then... I had quite a few after looking at some vids, but what's with the creator cap you put on? Anyway of those you left me with:KOD (only for his level 1s and 2s besides the Power Stream) and Sander(not in Hypers) have limited damage, and looking over some XI stuff, I think Vans' values are accurate and are still very limited. It looks to me like in certain KOF (/SvC) games the damage got a major reduction. Anyway, I believe that Sepp took down some of the SvC hyper damage (assuming Sepp creates for accuracy). JZ also seems to have limited his stuff and yes, he merges KOF and CvS accuracy IIRC, but it seems as though he approve of damage limitations.Now if we take it from how much damage the character takes focusing on Basics and Specials ignoring Hypers that list is increased by quite a load if we take CvS, KOF, SvC, etc. with KOD, Sander, Vans, and all the rest of teh creators I can't list. BTW, focuisng on this, the damage on PotS chars is HUGE.But REALLY I want to be able to list the rest of the creator's whose damage is more balanced IMO, because what I'm focused on is how balanced PotS' chars are compared to Mugen. Limiting what I'm saying to just accurate creators, would be the same as me limiting the list to those whose damage values have become way overdone IMO because they are accurate. Additionally, thsi doesn't even have to be centered around KOF, we should compare this using a lot/all of the other games creations for Mugen have come from.
Talking about balance there is no such thing as mugen, so which chars are you balancing out pots chars with ?
Satou Sei said, June 19, 2008, 05:34:33 pmTalking about balance there is no such thing as mugen, so which chars are you balancing out pots chars with ?I'm in the middle as far as that goes. Well first I want to say that this all comes down to opinion in the first place, but I'll try to see if I can explain my point. Most people tend to disregard those grossly overpowered creations that disrupt any form of balance. PotS' chars aren't terrible with it, but when pitting PotS' chars against many others, their damage, especially in Basics and Specials, is (clearly) noticibly higher than any other whether accurate or not (and the power return rate is also unbalanced). The majority of Mugen creations that I have downloaded, feature atatcks whose damage is not as high as PotS' (Focusing on him because it's feedback. I don't mean to be rude.) or any of the accurate creators. My suggestion is some damage limitation because as the vids with the Terry AI highlight how his chars ca easily come back during matches while scoring significantly less blows. I am, on a lower, applying the "disregard grossly overpowered Shin/Evil/god/etc." creation opinions to PotS' chars. I do the same for IronMugen and a whole host of "accurate" others, because while being accurate, their chars become more cheap.
K.O.D said, June 19, 2008, 05:46:26 pmList few of the characters you test against and what damage they cause on one of their supers.This is getting more stressful. I listed the certain creators already, you guys can check for yourselves, but i'll make a little list for you anyway. Oh and BTW, let's not focus only on "Supers/Hypers" (as I said above), let's focus on the broader picture including the Basics the Specials, and the power Return Rate:Here's the list (yes I know soem of the chars are mergers and soem aren't accurate):- KOD -> Terry, K', Joe (Basics and Specials and Hypers at lvl 1 and 2 except Terry's Power Stream)- Vans -> Terry, Iori, Saisyu (All around)- JZ -> Felicia, Andy, Zero (All around. Except Zero's CLSNs are questionable.)- Kung Fu Man - Every single char but specifically focused on Twelve and Hashimoto (All around, everything)- Fervicante -> All (Basics and Specials)- Makkah - Haohmaru (all around except I have some issues with the Power Return and the CLSNs)- J.Lee - Chun-Li (all around besides that one anti-air special, the CLSNs, and teh priorities)- Mr. Fong - All chars except Kim and Ryo (all around)- etc. etc. etc.*Going to Bed. My head is acting up*
Are we talking cross games here? I mean most of the time an accurate character, vs an accurate character from the same game will be balanced.If it's intermingling games then there will be a number of imbalances. It's to be expected. I mean, if you map out the damage for a heavy kick from darkstalkers, it's around 140 damage. Thats a hefty chunk of lifebar. Supers that aren't grapples are often round the 250 mark. Going up to level 3 supers and that sort of shit it can be anywhere from 1% to 90% of your lifebar in the games the characters come from.If you're accurate you put that in mugen and due to the nature of the move it can still come off as imbalanced. Especially vs something that doesn't deal well with it.Too subjective a subject if you focus on accurate characters. Focus on inaccurate ones and how they're particularly imbalanced and try to bring them to a more balanced state is a much more worthy task.
Cyanide said, June 19, 2008, 11:23:30 pmAre we talking cross games here? I mean most of the time an accurate character, vs an accurate character from the same game will be balanced.I know and understand exactly what you are saying:http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=80460.msg690089#msg690089*There are a few more interesting replies from that topic tooWhat I'm really advocating is ditching accurate damage and power return values, in favor of stuff that brings Mugen more to a central point.http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=80460.msg690098#msg690098Also, we can't ignore the fact that the "accurate line" as values are importated into Mugen is very blurry:http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=80460.msg690721#msg690721Then there was the CLSN accuracy concerning the topic below in which I was ignored. I do believe that this concerns what looks better and what seems more appropriate over what is. (in other words they seem to ignore accuracy for either balance or image/creative gameplay):http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=75480.msg635478#msg635478Cyanide said, June 19, 2008, 11:23:30 pmIf it's intermingling games then there will be a number of imbalances. It's to be expected. I mean, if you map out the damage for a heavy kick from darkstalkers, it's around 140 damage. Thats a hefty chunk of lifebar. Supers that aren't grapples are often round the 250 mark. Going up to level 3 supers and that sort of shit it can be anywhere from 1% to 90% of your lifebar in the games the characters come from.Yes, indeed, I agree and I think it shuld be ditched. Many, if not most creators, tend to limit their damages (purposely scrapping accuracy) in order to avoid cheapness, and provide more balance.Cyanide said, June 19, 2008, 11:23:30 pmIf you're accurate you put that in mugen and due to the nature of the move it can still come off as imbalanced. Especially vs something that doesn't deal well with it.Yes, that's teh point I've been making for most of my posts.Cyanide said, June 19, 2008, 11:23:30 pmToo subjective a subject if you focus on accurate characters. Focus on inaccurate ones and how they're particularly imbalanced and try to bring them to a more balanced state is a much more worthy task.Personally, I'm neutral.Most of teh inaccurate creations I see, tend to do a better job of balancing as it concerns Mugen overall, than those that are accurate.
QuoteBasides, tehre are many KOF creators who actively limit their Hyper Damage for teh sake of balance, actually, I believe that it is most of them that do that.No.
Balance is subjective, Accuracy is not. Trying to attain balance in mugen is a slippery slope that leads only to one Compromise after another.
[L] said, June 20, 2008, 06:47:02 amQuoteBasides, tehre are many KOF creators who actively limit their Hyper Damage for teh sake of balance, actually, I believe that it is most of them that do that.No.What's wrong with taht. maybe not Hypers, there I can say I am probably wrong, but in specials and Basics, most of the creations I have downlaoded tend to be pretty weak in those areas.Shion said, June 20, 2008, 08:15:43 amBalance is subjective, Accuracy is not. Trying to attain balance in mugen is a slippery slope that leads only to one Compromise after another.Personally I think both are subjective, because there are a ton of different creators who claim their stuff is accurate, and end up challenging each other and sometimes they even end up not even being accurate:Bistard Wolf said, June 19, 2008, 11:53:07 pmAlso, we can't ignore the fact that the "accurate line" as values are importated into Mugen is very blurry:http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=80460.msg690721#msg690721Then there was the CLSN accuracy concerning the topic below in which I was ignored. I do believe that this concerns what looks better and what seems more appropriate over what is. (in other words they seem to ignore accuracy for either balance or image/creative gameplay):http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=75480.msg635478#msg635478
Bistard Wolf said, June 19, 2008, 05:26:47 pmAnyway, I believe that Sepp took down some of the SvC hyper damage (assuming Sepp creates for accuracy).I don't think so---and the assumption I did characters for accuracy (as if accuracy itself were a reason you made things for), is wrong.Balanced damage values? See if you find many KOF special moves that manage to do as much damage as SFA chars with their strongest basic attacks... I want to say, those games are pretty different regarding damages.
Sepp said, June 21, 2008, 10:41:39 pmBistard Wolf said, June 19, 2008, 05:26:47 pmAnyway, I believe that Sepp took down some of the SvC hyper damage (assuming Sepp creates for accuracy).I don't think so---and the assumption I did characters for accuracy (as if accuracy itself were a reason you made things for), is wrong.I didn't assume you made things for accuracy (if that is actually what your sentence is suggesting I did). I didn't approve of how limited the list of people I was given was, so I attempted to bring you into it, to further my point. I said, "assuming Sepp creates for accuracy," because I didn't know whether you did or not (If you did, then maybe you could have been in teh list. If you didn't, maybe not.)Anyway I watched this vid of Chun-Li in SvC and found her damage kind of high:http://youtube.com/watch?v=q1kUtZsp3skIt seemed even more ridiculous to me at first because I forgot that SvC uses a double lifebar, but still going back and looking at your Chun-Li, she looks a bit weaker than the real one, IMO.Sepp said, June 21, 2008, 10:41:39 pmBalanced damage values? See if you find many KOF special moves that manage to do as much damage as SFA chars with their strongest basic attacks... I want to say, those games are pretty different regarding damages.That seems to be a point on my side of things (technically we're arguing about CvS, but as it concerns specials, I believe SFA and CvS are interchangable in that sentence).
Sfa, specials deal a lot of damage. In fact most of the CPS2 games deal a considerable amount of damage. Like i said, heavy kick in darkstalkers is 140+. It's the same over most of capcoms games. For the record, mukai as a boss, with his slightly insane damage has a heavy kick of 172 damage. 30 more, for a boss character that's not a lot.Mot normal DM's in kof deal about 25% damage without dampening. As i don't play that much SF i can't say what supers there do, but if it's anything like the basic moves it's a lot. And of course, you do basics more than you do supers so a heavy kick is going to count for a lot more damage over time than any super.
Bistard Wolf said, June 21, 2008, 11:20:59 pmAnyway I watched this vid of Chun-Li in SvC and found her damage kind of high:http://youtube.com/watch?v=q1kUtZsp3skIt seemed even more ridiculous to me at first because I forgot that SvC uses a double lifebar, but still going back and looking at your Chun-Li, she looks a bit weaker than the real one, IMO.You are talking about balance and accuracy and point out what seem to be inconsistencies that you think you found after---here's the good bit---watching a video and gauging the amount of health substracted from a health bar by sight, doubling that in your head, then comparing to MUGEN from your memory---and then you dare to bring up results obtained in such a completely unreliable way and waste our time with it?!?The nerve of you! I'm at a loss for words. Quote(technically we're arguing about CvS, but as it concerns specials, I believe SFA and CvS are interchangable in that sentence).Yes.
QuoteAnyway I watched this vid of Chun-Li in SvC and found her damage kind of high:Err no, that looks normal for SNK damageWatch the second round vs chunli, 25% from a DM. Normal.
