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"Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems" (Read 1130 times)

Started by PotS, March 03, 2009, 04:16:42 pm
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PotS

"Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#1  March 03, 2009, 04:16:42 pm
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makstaks said:
i always believed that fighting games should focus more on innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems. In that way each character is more unique and each person has more pride in playing their main'd character. Overdoing the system alienates the mass audience and leads to exploiting the system....like custom combos in sf alpha series or the overdone system in guilty gear. Gg is too complicated for me to enjoy but i love the character designs. Venom is like the pinnacle of character design to me!

This quote is from a guy who assisted in making some of old SNK's games up until (and including) KOF95 and SS2, I just felt so connected to this quote I had to post it.  Anyone else agree with that?
Doesn't mean of course that every game should play the same, it's just about not overdoing it like he said.


Bonus:
makstaks said:
Yeah, japan kept sticking with basic design back then. I would like to say we helped change the philosophy behind that. Its hard to compete with SF2 based on solid gameplay. Especially considering the track record at the time was AOF, FF, and WH. But you can beat them on character design...i feel like SF characters are bland. So i always thought snk should give characters alot of personality. Make a sound when you attack, stylish moves, win poses, attitude, etc. The way to compete is to make fans of characters.

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http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=154194
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the_mith

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#2  March 03, 2009, 04:35:37 pm
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Hmm, interesting points a guess. I have to say though I still feel that making new (or "innovative") fighting game systems are more important...

Let me try to explain this in a way that still makes sense lol, erm basically I believe that the general fighting game should be the same in terms of 6 button, throws, combos etc but every new fighting game should add one or two things that makes it different and innovative.

The best example of this is parrying (which for me is the best thing ever made for a fighting game). SF3 had the basics of SF2, and actually uncomplecated systems from alpha (I'm thinkin multiple supers, special bars, air blocking etc) but added parrying which added a whole new dynamic to the game. Lets face it the character designs in SF3 weren't innovative by a long shot, but the improvement in gameplay makes it in my oppinion one of the best fighters out there.

I guess it really does come down to not overdoing it, one or two new things to the system that adds a bit of spice and depth is enough to make a solid fighter. Then it comes to innovative character designs I think this can be important but investing in a characters story while playing a re-hashed game with few tweaks wouldn't be very fun for me. GG is a classic example, yeah the characters look flashy but I feel the game is incomplete (which is why I have yet to complete it!).

Also fighting game has certain stereotypes and "archtypes" (fancy word for copy-cat wannabes) so either way no matter how innovative you make a design they will always be compared to someone like ryu as ryu is so simple he can basically be compared to atleast one character in any fighting game. Also fighting games (for some reason) take innovative design to mean freak...

Wow long post!!  :-X

I always shine!

PotS

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#3  March 03, 2009, 04:47:55 pm
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SF3 is a good example of doing it right. Sure parry is a bit hard to get used to, but the system as a whole is still simple and elegant.  The characters didn't innovate so much, yeah, but even though they got a cold reception they fulfilled the "making people fans of the characters" condition.

But then you have e.g. SFA3 (which I love, mind you), try teaching someone how to play that and you'll be saying "Just pick A-Ism" before every match. ;P Or SS5 Special, Samsho has had so many superfluous additions and button revisions it's not even funny.

Quote
Also fighting games (for some reason) take innovative design to mean freak...
Haha, well put. ;P
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Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 04:53:22 pm by P.o.t.S.

Bastard Walt

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#4  March 03, 2009, 04:54:41 pm
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I was exactly just about to mention SF3. UBER Simple, just pick one super art and build your strategy around it. The characters are hard to get used to, but once you understand their gimmicks you can have have your ass handed to you with all kinds of mind games.

I just love Urien, he's an all around character always full of surprises, it took me months to master 1 fighting style with him (I play nothing like the vids of the Pro players) but it was damn worth it. Directional projectiles, charge moves, a simple Multi-hit projectile super, that's all I needed. But the quintessential innovative part came with his basics - Long reach, slow but strong, and his close overhead kick.
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Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 05:00:11 pm by CCI [walt]

PotS

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#5  March 03, 2009, 04:56:07 pm
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Not to mention one of the most fun supers ever, Aegis Reflector. 8)
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Bastard Walt

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#6  March 03, 2009, 05:17:29 pm
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Funny, I never used it, maybe I'm not creative enough. I have an avid Alex player friend who always opposed the most resistence - I use Temporal Thunder to repel his approaches :pleased:
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Just No Point

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#7  March 03, 2009, 05:32:25 pm
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I have to say that 1 super is a bit TOO simplistic =p

I at least turn on all the supers in SF3 when I play it.

But I agree with the topic. Heck, I still can't really play Guilty Gear or any of those types of extreme fighters that have a zillion things happening at once.

They have so many sub systems, dial a combo combinations, and options... if I start to learn the games and set them down for a few months I can't just pick them up and play them.

Sometimes I wish I just sat around playing games all the time like I used to. Where spending 12 hours + multiple days in a row to master things wasn't an issue.
But I just can't do it anymore. Heck, I'm forgetting sub functions and moves in the Darkstalkers series when I play them now :S

PotS

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#8  March 03, 2009, 05:35:52 pm
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It's that old "easy to learn, hard to master" motto. Depth should be in the characters and how they interact with each other, not in having long instructions on how to play the game.
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Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:32:17 pm by P.o.t.S.

the_mith

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#9  March 03, 2009, 07:21:21 pm
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P.o.t.S. said, March 03, 2009, 05:35:52 pm
Depth should be in the characters and how they interact with each other

I think characters should be given more thought in how they will play with others. I understand this is incredibly hard but extra care should be taken with this. Sagat in SF4 is nothing short of excellent, near enough everything can be cancelled, he has huge reach and good power. Brilliant anti-airs, fire balls, and dashing attacks... I think he is slightly above others and this is something that capcom should have avoided.

I dont think there has ever been a fighting game i've played where characters are level and the match comes down to pure skill. Which I guess does add depth from characters instead of fighting systems but this is why depth shouldn't come from characters. It take away from the game when a noob sagat player can decimate a good el fuerte player without using the fighting game system much.

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OZ

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#10  March 03, 2009, 07:37:16 pm
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I couldn't agree with the first post more.

Certain games get to a point where I don't even know how to perform (effectively) many of the special functions of the game, and will as such will just ignore them. (I hope this really hurts the programmers, because someone needs to let them know that they're wasting time)

As such, much more of my time goes into learning how to play with a particular character.

And to me, there is little more important than attention paid to character design.
Of course you can't place a game on a foundation of garbage, but it's the characters that will draw me to a game.

Which is why I was never a huge SF fan.
A shoto is a shoto is a shoto.
Though they've certainly improved character design over the years.
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Loona

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#11  March 06, 2009, 09:21:40 pm
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I generally agree with the points, but one of the things I always respected about SNK was how they consistently had the balls to do thing like completely change a game's system or even protagonist characters. Not every game hits jackpot that way, but some good things tend to stick around from the experimentation.

A good system that allows for a big variety of character play styles is a good thing - but I prefer when it doesn't involve things like double button presses for actions that are important to the game mechanics.
I'm looking at you, rolling - a defensive move that relies on pressing 2 attack buttons, and not setting aside a button for that when the option presented itself in KoF XI is annoying. As much as I like the KoF series, I feel I have more fun with Garou since Just Defending is far more intuitive and can even come up accidentaly in play without unintended side-effects.

Rote Zaungast

Re: "Innovating character designs instead of innovating fighting game systems"
#12  March 06, 2009, 09:35:06 pm
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I don't know how this topic went past my sensors... 0_0

I think both should be aimed for at the same time, the gg series needed more than system fixes alone, they did great with it as a gathering of outcasts and it needed to be pushed further with more great character designs
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