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Juggle Systems in MUGEN (Read 18906 times)

Started by Just No Point, January 19, 2016, 11:24:11 pm
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Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#1  January 19, 2016, 11:24:11 pm
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So MUGEN's default juggle system is pretty much worthless. POTS left this behind to replace it.

Spoiler: POTS Juggle (click to see content)

What are some other suggested methods? How different are they from game to game or is POTS's system fairly universal? Consider this a juggle master thread. I'm going to do some searches to find more juggle code options too.

More info and options.
http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/checking-juggle-value-86690.0.html

http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/the-juggle-points-they-do-nothing-91894.0.html

http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/reporting-number-juggle-points-used-possible-not-possible-100146.0.html

http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/juggle-point-problemsolved-more-or-less-122097.0.html
Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 11:55:36 pm by Just No Point
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#2  January 20, 2016, 12:02:25 am
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Breakers Revenge:

You can juggle an opponent with a basic. After it, only specials and supers can juggle. Then you can only juggle with supers.





Street Fighter IV. Ultra convoluted. Every hit adds a point to a juggle counter. Every hit has its own juggle  value. If the hit you perform has more juggle value than the opponent has juggle points accumulated, you will juggle succesfully.





Cvs2 and Street Fighter Alpha 2. Even more complicated than SF4. Took from http://sonichurricane.com/articles/capcom_vs_snk_combo_systems.txt

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty



Street Fighter EX series allows a timing window for juggles. If the opponent is in a state where he will land on his feet, you have a small timing window to juggle him. I don't know the exact number of frames.

However, if your attack knocks the opponent down, he won't land on his feet anymore, not even with Standing LPs, until your combo drops or ends.

Every attack you make will knock the opponent down again, giving a timing window of 27-28 frames (I don't know the exact number but I'm really sure that it doesn't exceeds 30).



Some plays have attacks that give a free juggle opportunity, knocking the opponent down, but without restricting the juggle window to 27 frames. Dhalsim's Yoga Blast, and Cracker Jack and Hokuto's super moves in the video above are among these free-juggle attacks.




SF3:

You have 6 juggle points.

Attacks usually remove 1 juggle point. A few selected attacks remove more. Some like Ryu's Shinkuu Hadoken reset the points to 6, allowing 6 extra hits.

When you have 0 juggle points available, the falling opponent is still vulnerable until he reaches the peak of his arc, when after it your combo is registered as finished. That's why in the movie below, some fighters juggle the opponent with 7 moves.





KOF.

KOF experts can give more details than me. I don't know, for example, why in KOF'97, Terry can easily perform Power Charge > + B > + B > + B ... on the cornered opponent if he explods a Power gauge before, but can hardly do the same without exploding first.

Or why in KOf'97 Joe can hit an opponent after a Screw Upper if the first hit whiffs, but can't if the first hurricane hits.

Watch this video for extra discussion about KOF juggles (Andy's juggles worth special mentioning):



EDIT: it looks like I missed the point of this thread. I mentioned how commercial games handle juggles, when actually it was supposed to be about which methods MUGEN creators use to do the same, and how effective they are.
Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 02:30:45 am by Zzyzzyxx
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#3  January 20, 2016, 12:08:25 am
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now you are threading on discussion waters, what is fair and what not; and this is only about the recover control in air thing, it's not even about actual juggle systems.
(my memory might fail me there)
juggle 'points wise, it's hard ot find someone that says that they should not be implemented in the attacker; control recover one mugen is supossed to have that, even different parameters for hit defs, sicne it's not really very universal, half of the games (kof,sf, etc) have a fall on feet but don't recover control until landing rule , while vs series/anime games allow you to recover control in the air to attack again. also teh bit about not being able to be juggled after being hit with a normal attack in the air is partially false, at least in kof as counter hits allow you to juggle and kof also has moves that always juggle including that situation.

now to add something that aproximatescode; what I do for setting up a juggle rule is to keep track of juggle points in a variable, make all attacks so they can't juggle under normal circunstances, then use the points var and the nojuggle check assert special in st-2 to allow juggling.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#4  January 20, 2016, 12:17:24 am
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@Zzyzzyxx
What you posted is very on topic as well though. It definitely fits in an all juggle info topic like this. Thank you very much!

In fact reading the threads I linked to and seeing the different ways deals with juggling gives me an idea how to code each one a bit better.

That may be a good exercise for me to try itself.

now you are threading on discussion waters, what is fair and what not; and this is only about the recover control in air thing, it's not even about actual juggle systems.
(my memory might fail me there)
juggle 'points wise, it's hard ot find someone that says that they should not be implemented in the attacker; control recover one mugen is supossed to have that, even different parameters for hit defs, sicne it's not really very universal, half of the games (kof,sf, etc) have a fall on feet but don't recover control until landing rule , while vs series/anime games allow you to recover control in the air to attack again. also teh bit about not being able to be juggled after being hit with a normal attack in the air is partially false, at least in kof as counter hits allow you to juggle and kof also has moves that always juggle including that situation.

now to add something that aproximatescode; what I do for setting up a juggle rule is to keep track of juggle points in a variable, make all attacks so they can't juggle under normal circunstances, then use the points var and the nojuggle check assert special in st-2 to allow juggling.
Yes, as I read more and more threads it seems that's the go to method for the best juggle system and it'd make it simpler for the user to then edit how they juggle more freely to replicate certain games if they wish.

I was kind of surprised to not find many topics dealing with how people build their juggle systems. But it came up enough in help threads that I began piecing it together better.

This sparked mostly because I was trying to figure out the best way to code one for KFM. The var method seems like it may be the best for that to retain a simplicity (barring ppl scared of vars) and ability to teach juggling basics.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#5  January 20, 2016, 12:33:17 am
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Back on topic:

The reason why I don't use Mugen juggle points is simple.

Helpers have their own juggle points. Due to this, I can abuse projectiles and nothing else to juggle the opponent as much as my skill allows. The result is absurd damage and my char won't have juggle points deducted.



I try to use different styles for my chars.

Sometimes I try to use the SFEX method, which involves setting a certain var (let's say, var(1337)) to 27 if I juggle the opponent, making it decrease its value 1 unit per frame. Then every attack of my opponent and every projectile will have a code that sets the type of the move to idle after my juggle var reaches zero.



Sometimes I just give absolute freedom for juggles (the number of juggle points I give to all my chars is actually zero. None of their attacks deduct any juggle point either), and make every attack knockdown a jumping opponent, Tekken-style, but assuring that the attacks have resonably large recovery times so that you can't do something like run > Standing LP > run > Standing LP on a falling opponent. The attacks must pop the opponent up as little as possible so that this system works efficiently.

And make sure that the opponent always gets knocked down from every juggle with this method. Why?

The infamous re-stand bug.

Let's say that I juggle KFM with a light punch and he lands on his feet. My punch gives him really low vertical speed (let's say, air.velocity = -1.4,-0.1)  when KFM falls.



My attack has an air hittime large enough (let's say, 24) so that if hits the opponent, the hittime isn't over when the opponent lands.

This isn't the real bug. The problem comes here.

KFM reaches the floor.



 Now we have this bullshit code implemented in Mugen common1.cns:

[State 52, 3]
type = CtrlSet
trigger1 = Time = 3
value = 1

KFM lands on state 52, but he didn't recover control yet. He still has 3 frames where he is a sitting duck, due to the code above. The code didn't consider that he landed from a gethit state and will negate control for more 3 frames.

Any attack I perform on him in this 3-frame window WILL register as a combo and WILL be a valid combo.

Because when KFM landed after the juggle he STILL didn't have his chance to recover. That's why when you give complete freedom for juggles it's better to make every attack knock an airborne opponent down.
Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 02:43:27 am by Zzyzzyxx
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#6  January 20, 2016, 12:52:56 am
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So MUGEN's default juggle system is pretty much worthless. POTS left this behind to replace it.

Spoiler: POTS Juggle (click to see content)
This is related to juggling but it's not actually PotS's juggle system. It's also a bit outdated because 1.0 now allows this to be produced with a HitDef parameter; PotS's last big update for his characters for 1.0 removed the old way and added in the new.

Instead of using a target state to force P2 recover, the new HitDef parameter, ForceNoFall, can be used to well... force P2 to not fall. All of the normals in PotS's characters have ForceNoFall = 1 in their respective HitDef's (technically, they have ForceNoFall = !var(20); var(20) is the custom combo timer, and it will disable ForceNoFall if active).


Spoiler: Juggle "resets" - invulnerability (click to see content)
This however is still in use, after a fashion. It's simplified down to a juggle flag variable (0 = off/can juggle; 1 = flag on/can't juggle). It should be noted that the juggle flag is distinct from the juggle points in PotS characters, though!

I dunno what system should be applied to KFM, because every game/system has its own intricacies. Maybe a system that replicates what Kung Fu Man's original juggling system was supposed to be, minus all the various bugs or whatever? I don't actually know exactly what the problems Kung Fu Man/MUGEN's inbuilt juggle system has because I've never used it!
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#7  January 20, 2016, 01:52:28 am
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I don't actually know exactly what the problems Kung Fu Man/MUGEN's inbuilt juggle system has because I've never used it!
Well, first, MUGEN doesn't deduct juggle points if the combo doesn't knock the opponent down at all.

Second, MUGEN allows the opponent to attack after he gets hit in the air (because your hittime is over and he regains control), something that the commercial old-school games that MUGEN tries to replicate don't use.

If you set ctrl = 0 after your jumping attacks (trying to replicate Street Fighter or KOF, for example), you can't use MUGEN juggle system.

Because the opponent can and will peform a hit/combo back on you before both you guys land.

Both issues demonstrated here. KFM keeps 15 points during the entire combo and Kira recovers mid-air and can attack right after:

Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#8  January 20, 2016, 02:38:06 am
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There are many games in which being able to move/attack in the air after being juggled is normal, such as Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, even One Must Fall 2097.
In the former two, there is a decision point after your opponent's combo ends.  You either perform a recovery and make yourself vulnerable to air throws or followup combos, or let yourself fall which keeps your opponent's hit count high in order to reduce the total damage taken by what we refer to as an "Invalid" combo.  In this case you would use the following in your hitdefs for any moves that will juggle
Code:
fall = 1
fall.recover = 1



These games also tend to have a few moves that cause "hard knockdown" which is to say a move that will typically end a combo but cause your opponent to hit the ground without the possibility of manual recovery. Simply use the following for this behavior
Code:
fall = 1
fall.recover = 0
It is important at this point that none of your moves ever include F as a hitflag, otherwise you'd be able to put your opponent back into a recoverable state.


OMF2097 is a different beast altogether.  It is said that Mike Zaimont himself took inspiration for Skullgirls' infinite detection system from this game, although the two games couldn't be further apart.  It should be noted that in the game, the ability to juggle (called Rehit mode) is actually an optional, extra feature that requires a cheat code to enable.  The game is rather dull without it and I highly recommend enabling it.
With rehit mode enabled, there is a very simple rule for what can and cannot juggle at any given time -
If your move hits an airborne opponent, it will no longer juggle.
Air versions of specials are counted as different from ground versions.
What this means is that long juggles require you to use as many different moves as possible without repeating any, and to avoid slow multi-hitting moves since the second or third hits will whiff.  Some characters can abuse the second rule in hyper mode (another option that gives many characters aerial versions of their specials) by chaining an air special into a ground one by doing it as close to the ground as possible to cancel the recovery.

I would imagine a reasonable implementation of this system in mugen would involve a helper keeping track of the moves which have been used once an opponent is airborne and resetting whenever the opponent recovers.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#9  January 20, 2016, 02:56:23 am
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There are many games in which being able to move/attack in the air after being juggled is normal, such as Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, even One Must Fall 2097.
Indeed. Most recent anime fighters are actually similar to the way Mugen handles juggles (give or take a few tweaks).



With rehit mode enabled, there is a very simple rule for what can and cannot juggle at any given time -
If your move hits an airborne opponent, it will no longer juggle.
Air versions of specials are counted as different from ground versions.
Precisely @The_None's traditional method.

I remember @Ricepigeon using a different method for juggle restrictions before adhering to The_None's method. He could talk a little about that.



I also edited my first post in the thread to give info about SF3 juggle system.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#10  January 20, 2016, 04:04:40 am
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This is being most educational!

Found some stuff on Vampire Savior too to add to this.
Quote
It looks like VH2's juggle system is a mix of ST and SFA/A2. Basically every move has an assigned juggle potential. If you knock someone down, for example by hitting them out of the air with a special move, they become totally invincible, just like in ST.

However, if you knock them down with a move that has juggle potential, then they get put into a special jugglable knockdown state where moves with juggle potential can still hit them. Of course, almost every move has zero juggle potential so most attacks whiff.

An attack with a juggle potential of one will hit once after such a knockdown. An attack with juggle potential of two will hit twice after such a knockdown, and so on. Most ES moves and supers have some juggle potential.

For example, Morrigan's ES DP has a juggle potential of 7. Normally the first hit knocks down and the next seven hits juggle. You can also have it hit the cornered opponent at the top of their jump so that it only connects four times, then do a second ES DP to juggle four more hits.

It seems like there's an extra somewhat-aribitrary limitation too. If you hit someone with Morrigan's ES fireball, you have a very short period of time to juggle with ES DP (for five extra hits since the first hit of ES FB knocks down) before they become invulnerable. It happens right around the top of their knockdown arc, like in A1/A2.

Testing midscreen using Morrigan vs Victor, you can have Morrigan's ES fireball hit Victor's whiff s.MK and if the first fireball hit connects far enough away, Victor becomes invincible before the rest of it catches up. If you wait a little longer to press s.MK, the last two hits of the fireball will juggle with a tiny gap after the first hit. I'm not sure if this only applies to projectiles or what.

Victor's ES lariat works the same way as Morrigan's ES DP, although i can't tell how much juggle potential it has beyond "2 or more." Though it might actually be two, because if you do a third ES lariat, it whiffs completely.

Btw in your first clip, if you wait a little longer before doing that second ES lariat after the first one knocks down, you can get the same hit pattern as you got in the second clip. That first pattern happens because the last hit of the first ES lariat hits meaty, which allows you to start the second ES lariat while the opponent is slightly higher. If you hold forward to bring Victor closer during the first ES lariat, the last hit will connect sooner, the opponent will drop sooner, and the second ES lariat will connect with the first two hits instead of the first and last.

Otherwise i have no clue what's going on in DF mode. It could be possible that they made his fist hitboxes bigger so the second hit of the second lariat doesn't whiff like it would normally. Anyway please double-check all of this with different characters before accepting it because i only tested with two. Maybe i just ran into a bunch of exceptions.

Quote
Your explanation got me thinking there's a juggle counter hidden in there somewhere, and... there is. (I put together a shitty Lua script for memsearch because the builtin utility is broken.) If you use a cheat to force this value at 0, the victim can be juggled indefinitely. I know your stance on cheats but I couldn't resist once I saw how easy it is.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qugnkojyily

Anyways, that doesn't tell us what moves can do what but it's a piece of the puzzle.

Source

@Jesuszilla: @Felineki: You guys have more info on VS?
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#11  January 20, 2016, 04:23:53 pm
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To further this discussion should I build the Juggle System into KFM that's more similar to Melty Blood as David Sirloin describes? Since it's the closest to how the default juggle system is supposed to act?

Just recode it using a var to track like E suggests and is discussed in the various threads I linked to in the OP?
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#12  January 20, 2016, 04:35:46 pm
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Just my 2 cents: There is a problem with using custom states for juggling. Some characters can't be affected by custom states, like the ones who uses some kind of super armor.
Instead of making the move hit but not send the target to a custom state, Mugen makes the attack do not hit at all.

For example, I code boss characters where they receive no hit from anything but uses a helper to receive the hits, where I put a HitOverride to receive the damage.
In this case, any custom state hit will miss.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#13  January 21, 2016, 08:28:08 am
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afaik that only applies to moves that have p2stateno as a parameter in their hitdef. Moves that use Targetstate shouldn't be affected.

I remember @Ricepigeon using a different method for juggle restrictions before adhering to The_None's method. He could talk a little about that.

Ah yes, that system. It was more or less derived from the system used in both SSF4 and SFxT, though leaning closer to SFxT due to each move having its own juggle potential, which SSF4 didn't have iirc. Its been a while since I used that system though, but I remember both games only had really minor differences but the overall system was more or less the same.

EDIT: I found my notes on SFxT's juggle system, which is what I loosely based mine on originally.

Street Fighter X Tekken Juggle System

Quote
    The same Juggle System used in the majority of Street Fighter games.
    All hits on a character that have been knocked down will also knock the opponent down.
    Every move in the game has the ability to juggle.

The biggest problem is that the Juggle System in Street Fighter X Tekken is not very straight forward. Moves seemingly hit and whiff on whim, and things that look like they should be connecting don’t. And what works with one character oddly does not work with other characters at all!

The funny thing is that the Juggle System in Street Fighter X Tekken isn’t all that new. In fact, it remains consistent with almost every Street Fighter game in history when it comes to Juggles, including Super Street Fighter II Turbo. In fact, the only Street Fighter games that do not follow this Juggle System are Street Fighter Alpha 3 and the Street Fighter III series (4 total games). But Super Turbo, Alpha 1 and 2, CvS1 and 2, and all versions of Street Fighter IV have used the same Juggle System at its core.

There are really only two things that make Street Fighter X Tekken different than all of the previous Street Fighter games that use this Juggle System. 1) Once a character has been put into a Knock Down state, all hits turn into Knock Downs. 2) Every move in the game has the ability to Juggle, whereas in previous games, only specific moves had any “juggle potential.”

This Juggle System, which I had called the “Capcom Juggle System” since the days of Capcom Vs. SNK 2, really involves two main basic concepts: the Juggle Count and the Juggle Potential. And new to Street Fighter X Tekken is the system of the Juggle Cost.

All Juggles must be set up with a Knock Down move. Before we even start talking about how the Capcom Juggle System works, we have to talk about how to set up a Juggle. This part is the easiest: just score a Knock Down on the opponent. Anything that will cause the opponent to land on their backs is a Juggle Set Up. This can be a Special Move, like a Shoryuken, that pops the opponent off the ground, a Normal Move that counter hits the opponent out of the air, a move that ground bounces or wall bounces the opponent, like Xiaoyu’s Cyanide (her overhead kick), or a Tekken String that pops the opponent into the air, like Julia’s Slow Power Punch Combo. Once they have been knocked into the air by a Knock Down, they are ready to be Juggled.

Also, as mentioned above, it is very important to note that, once struck by a Knock Down, every move that connects on the falling body is also a Knock Down. So a Standing Light Punch, for example, normally isn’t a Knock Down against an airborne opponent without a Counter Hit. However, if the opponent has already been struck by a Knock Down, a Standing Light Punch that juggles, even though it’s not a Counter Hit, will still be a Knock Down, thus continually setting up future Juggles.

An internal counter in the game increases as a character is juggled.
The move that causes the Knock Down does not increase the Juggle Count.

As characters are being Juggled in the game, there is actually an internal counter that I like to call the Juggle Count that keeps track of how many times a character has been juggled. So for example, let’s say you land a Cross Rush on your opponent and your teammate, Zangief, runs into the screen. You then combo his standard Standing Medium Punch, Standing Medium Punch, Standing Medium Kick chained into Standing Roundhouse combo. As each of those hits connect, this Juggle Count increase one by one. On the first Medium Punch, the Juggle Count reaches 1. On the second, it gets to 2. The Medium Kick then brings the count to 3 and the chain into Roundhouse finishes the Juggle Count to 4.

This Count is very important because it determines what can juggle and what cannot anymore. How this works will be explained in the next section. Just remember that this Juggle Count kicks in as soon as the opponent is put into the air by a Knock Down attack. Also, please note that the first hit that puts them into the Knock Down state does not register towards the Juggle Count. So let’s say you hit someone out of the air with a Crouching Hard Punch that Counter Hits, so it acts as a Knock Down. Even though you hit them out of the air, it does NOT count as part of the Juggle. Instead, it counts as the Juggle Set Up. So after that Counter Hit Crouching Hard Punch connects, the Juggle Count starts up at 0.

Every move in the game has a Juggle Potential value tied to it. A move can connect and juggle the opponent so long as the Juggle Potential of the move is higher than the current Juggle Count.  In general, the following values are a good starting point for Juggle Potential assumptions:
        Light Attacks have a Juggle Potential of 2.
        Medium Attacks have a Juggle Potential of 3.
        Hard Attacks have a Juggle Potential of 4.
        Special Moves have a Juggle Potential of 4.
Those values will vary from character to character, move to move. Get to know your character's exceptions.

Every single move in Street Fighter X Tekken has been assigned a “Juggle Potential” value, and what the number is is pre-determined by the makers of the game. There is no universal formula, just a bunch of arbitrary numbers decided by those who spent the time balancing the game.

So what is the Juggle Potential? It essentially is the number that tells you whether or not you are “allowed” to Juggle the opponent at the time. So how does this work? Well, let’s take a specific move as an example: Cammy’s Cannon Spike. The Cannon Spike has a Juggle Potential of 4. So what does that mean, exactly?

Remember the Juggle Count? As soon as I remind you of its existence, I think things start to click into place very quickly. As the Juggle Count increases, only moves with a Juggle Potential greater than the current Juggle Count will be allowed to connect. So in other words, if we have a move with a Juggle Potential of 4, as long as the Juggle Count is currently at 0, 1, 2, or 3, it will actually juggle. As soon as the Juggle Count reaches 4, however, moves with the Juggle Potential of 4 will whiff.

So let’s look at Cammy’s Cannon Spike Again. I mentioned that this move has a Juggle Potential of 4. How was this determined? Simple. If you take any teammate and perform a Launcher on the opponent in the corner with Cammy as the Reserve Character, Cammy will run in and can do the following combo: Close Standing Hard Punch, Crouching Medium Punch, Crouching Hard Punch, and Cannon Spike -- each linked after the other. The Launcher that brought Cammy in is the Juggle Set Up. Then, when Cammy comes in, the first Hard Punch brings the Juggle Count up to 1. Then, the Crouching Medium Punch brings it to 2, the Crouching Hard Punch brings it to 3, and, with a Juggle Potential of 4, the Cannon Spike connects on the opponent bringing the Juggle Count to 4.

However, since we know we can link the Cannon Spike after a Crouching Hard Punch in the corner, let’s try to extend the combo, shall we? We can actually do, in the corner after a Launcher, Standing Hard Punch, Standing Medium Punch, Crouching Medium Punch, and end it with a Crouching Hard Punch. It’s the same combo as above, but with a Standing Medium Punch thrown in there. However, this time, if we try tacking on the Cannon Spike at the end of this combo... it whiffs! It can no longer connect because the Juggle Count is at 4 and the Cannon Spike only has a Juggle Potential of 4, so it can’t be the 5th move that juggles.

So again, the thing that makes this so tough is that every move has a pre-determined Juggle Potential that has been arbitrarily chosen by the people balancing this game. However, there is a very basic rule that most moves follow, but there are exceptions all over the place. So use this rule set as a BASIS of what Juggles can be performed. To know what actually can be done, you’ll have to look up your character’s Juggle Potentials (JPs).

    Light Attacks: JP of 2
    Medium Attacks: JP of 3
    Hard Attacks: JP of 4
    Special Moves: JP of 4

Again, this is a VERY rough base rule to follow. But it’s very dependent on the character. For example, Cammy’s Close Hard Punch only has a Juggle Potential of 2, instead of 4. Ryu’s Shoryuken, for some odd reason, all three versions have only a Juggle Potential of 2. Every hit of Chun Li’s Hyakuretsukyaku, the Lightning Kick, has a Juggle Potential of 5.

So while this rule can be followed a bit, please understand that every character will have exceptions.

If that were all that we needed to know for Juggles, that would be awfully convenient, but life is never that convenient. No, there is one more thing about Juggle Potentials that must be clarified, and that’s for multiple hitting moves. Obviously, there are many moves in the game that hit more than once, so how does Juggle Potentials work with those?

First of all, it must be said that, unlike Damage Scaling, every HIT adds to the Juggle Count. So if you juggle an opponent with a multiple hitting move, each hit will add to the Juggle Count. Hitting an opponent air-to-air with all three hits of Rolento’s Jumping Medium Punch will result in a Juggle Count of 2 when you land (the first hit is the Juggle Set Up, and the next two hits are Juggle Counts 1 and 2). So if you are trying to maximize Juggles, you should try to avoid multiple hit moves, as they general have much lower damage output per hit than single hits but eat up a lot more of the Juggle Count.

Now, within one multiple hitting move itself, every hit of the move can actually be assigned a different Juggle Potential as well. The perfect example of this is with Akuma’s Hard Punch Goshoryuken. The move has three hits, but each of the three hits has a different Juggle Potential. The first hit has a Juggle Potential of 3, the second hit has a Juggle Potential of 4, and the last hit has a Juggle Potential of 5. That’s why the farther along in a Juggle you do the Goshoryuken, the fewer hits it produces. Juggle with only 2 moves before landing a Goshoryuken, and it’ll juggle all 3 hits. Juggle with 4 moves before lancing a Goshoryuken, and it’ll only juggle with 1 because only the last hit has the Juggle Potential of 5.

Also, you’ll notice that it gets progressively harder and harder to hit the Goshoryuken “deep” with each Juggle, because it takes longer to “reach” the hit with the higher Juggle Potential. Of off a Launcher in the corner, you can juggle with two Light Punches and then do a super deep Goshoryuken. However, if you juggle with two Light Punches and then a Medium Punch and then try to link a Hard Punch Goshoryuken afterwards, that same “deep” Ghoshoryuken will whiff, because the first hit of the Goshoryuken can no longer hit due to surpassed Juggle Potential. Only the second hit can, which comes out a few frames slower than the first hit.

However, contrast this with Ken’s Hard Punch Shoryuken. All three hits have the same Juggle Potential of 4, so while you’ll end up with less hits with the more Juggles you do before the move, you’ll notice you can use that same deep timing no matter now many Juggles you’ve done.

Another example of different hits having different Juggle Potentials is Ryu’s EX Shoryuken. Those familiar with Ryu know that, if the first hit connects, he goes into a "Shin Shoryuken" animation with the slow and dramatic 4 hit uppercut. However, if the first hit whiffs, Ryu performs a standard Dragon Punch animation with multiple hits at the top. Well, those hits have a much higher Juggle Potential than the first hit. The first hit’s Juggle Potential is 4, so if you try to Juggle after bringing the Juggle Count up to 4 already, the first hit completely whiffs and the EX Shoryuken goes into the "miss" animation and the other hits at the top of the EX Shoryuken will connect, thanks to their higher Juggle Potentials.

New to Street Fighter X Tekken is the concept of the Juggle Cost. This was a new system put in place to prevent Juggle Combos that were too powerful and damaging. In every previous Street Fighter game, it was pretty straight forward: every hit that counted as a Juggle added 1 to the Juggle Count. This is no longer true.

Now, in Street Fighter X Tekken, moves can actually add more than one point to the Juggle Count! This pretty applies only to Special Moves, and for the most part it’s safe to assume that the Special Move will have a Juggle Cost of 3. There are various exceptions to this rule, especially with multiple hit Special Moves, but it’s once again a safe starting assumption.

Let’s look at an example. If Zangief lands his Headbutt (jumping Up + Hard Punch) against another airborne opponent in the corner, he gets a Juggle Set Up off of the Ground Bounce it causes. He can Juggle immediately with a Banishing Flat and then follow up with anything that has a Juggle Potential of at least 4, which includes the Double Lariat, a Close Hard Punch, or even a Crouching Hard Kick. However, moves like his Close Medium Punch or Close Medium Kick, with Juggle Potentials of only 3, will whiff after the Banishing Flat. That means the Banishing Flat automatically jumped the Juggle Count from 0 to 3.

Another example involves one of the exceptions: Ken’s Light Punch Shoryuken. That move has a whopping Juggle Cost of 4!! That means whenever you Juggle with a Light Punch Shoryuken, the Juggle Count doesn’t go up by 1, it goes up by 4!! This was done very intentionally, as the Light Punch Shoryuken has a Juggle Potential of 4. By jumping the Juggle Count instantly by 4, this prevents Ken from juggling two Light Punch Shoryukens in one Combo after a Juggle Set Up. Even as the first hit of a Juggle, it will shoot the Juggle Count from 0 to 4 instantly, preventing you from comboing a second Light Punch Shoryuken.

(However, as a note, Ken’s Hard Kick Tatsumaki Senpukyaku has a Juggle Potential of 8 for every hit, so you can combo one of those after a Juggled Light Punch Shoryuken instead.)

Some Special Moves don’t have any extra costs at all. Ryu’s Joudan Shokutogeri, for example, has a Juggle Cost of just 1, like any Normal Move. However, since it has a Juggle Potential of only 2, it can’t be abused by using it multiple times in a combo.

Knowing all of these things really helps you maximize your combos. For example, if your opponent tags out in the corner and you predict it, giving you a free Jump-In Combo with Ryu, knowing all of the above information helps a lot. Knowing his Joudan Shokutogeri has a Juggle Cost of 1 and his Hard Punches and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku have Juggle Potentials of 4 allows you to put together this combo:

Jump forward and do a Jumping Hard Punch and land with a Crouch Hard Punch into a Light Kick Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. That pops them up into the air which lets you land and juggle with a Crouching Hard Punch canceled into a Light Kick Joudan Shokutogeri. The Juggle Count, now being at only 2 thanks to the low Juggle Cost of the Joudan Shokutgeri, allows yet another Crouch Heavy Punch to juggle canceled into another Light Kick Tatsumaki Senpukyaku for a total damage of 436 with no meter usage at all! So you can see how understanding the Juggle System in this game can help you come up with more powerful combos.

Anyone who has played Street Fighter X Tekken for any amount of time has realized that utilizing Switch Cancels allows you to extend Juggles. So what exactly happens when a Switch Cancel is performed? The best way to think of it is that each character on your team has their own individual Juggle Counts. This is important to note because the Juggle Count for BOTH characters gets reset to 0 when a Switch Cancel is performed! And the hits from one character will not affect the Juggle Count of the other character!

Let’s take a look at this scenario. Ken can perform, against an opponent in the corner, a Light Punch Shoryuken and, after landing, juggle with Crouching Light Punch before the opponent hits the ground. Then, he can link a Crouching Medium Punch and, after that, link a Standing Hard Punch canceled into an EX Shoryuken. You’ll notice that the EX Shoryuken hits only once with the first hit and the rest of it whiffs.

Now, let’s see what happens if we perform the same combo but activate a Switch Cancel on that single hit of the EX Shoryuken.

Ken’s EX Shoryuken has a Juggle Potential of 4 for every hit. So in the above combo, it’s the first hit that connects and the rest that whiff. However, when the Switch Cancel is activated, look what happens: the entire EX Shoryuken connects! In other words, even Ken’s Juggle Count gets shifted immediately back to 0 so that his entire EX Shoryuken connects.

But how does that affect Ryu? It was mentioned that every hit raises the Juggle Count. So if Ken’s EX Shoryuken lands all four hits, does that mean, on their way down, the Juggle Count is already at 3 for Ryu? The answer is no. Remember I said that it appears both characters have their own unique Juggle Counts? That’s because no matter what Ken does, Ryu’s Juggle Count starts at 0 so, after the opponent falls back down from Ken’s EX Shoryuken, you can start juggling with Ryu as if they were just hit by a Juggle Set Up.

Keep in mind, however, that there are some moves that just straight up prevent juggling of ANY kind afterwards. Ryu’s EX Shoryuken is like this. After it connects, even if you Switch Cancel, you can no longer hit the opponent after Ryu finishes the EX Shoryuken. The opponent is just put into a special non-jugglable state.
Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:29:03 pm by Ricepigeon
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#14  January 23, 2016, 04:19:08 am
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@Jesuszilla: @Felineki: You guys have more info on VS?
The info you quoted gets most of it across. There's a per-move juggle potential value, which, upon the juggle count surpassing it, that move will no longer juggle. The time window he mentions is a second per-move factor: a juggle window. This does vary per move, for example Talbain's Beast Cannon has a fairly high window since you're expected to zip around and connect multiple, relatively widely-spaced hits. Other moves that are expected to do their hits rapidly then be done with it have a much shorter window. IIRC, the window will reset with every successful juggle hit (to that attacks' specific value), but once the window is over, that's it; nothing else can juggle at all, regardless of its own window or juggle potential values.

Darkstalkers 1 and Night Warriors' juggle systems are... weird. Probably not good to use for reference unless you specifically want to make a character based on those games' systems. But if anyone's interested, I can try and remember and write up what I know about them.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#15  January 31, 2016, 03:04:45 am
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Yep. Late reply (and late announcement), but with Felineki's help, I added the juggle counter to the table: http://www.trinitymugen.net/~Creator/Jesuszilla/CheatEngine/Vampire%20Savior.CT

Easiest to see with Gallon's Beast Cannon. Haven't tested with Zero3 yet so I'm not sure if the address is the same.

Another thing to note is that only certain moves make use of this. For example, I can't set the value to non-zero and have Razor Climb juggle infinitely.
Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 03:18:28 am by Jesuszilla
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#16  January 31, 2016, 03:57:04 am
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Hello everybody.

About juggles, I dunno if all people noticed,but when a Projectile is used the juggle  is infinite unless you add in the Projectile Hitdef air.juggle= some number like 5.

Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#17  January 31, 2016, 04:03:22 am
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Aaaaaaaaand shit like that is why we're here discussing this: nobody should use MUGEN's juggle system, ever.
Re: Juggle Systems in MUGEN
#18  February 01, 2016, 03:46:54 am
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Yep. Late reply (and late announcement), but with Felineki's help, I added the juggle counter to the table: http://www.trinitymugen.net/~Creator/Jesuszilla/CheatEngine/Vampire%20Savior.CT

Easiest to see with Gallon's Beast Cannon. Haven't tested with Zero3 yet so I'm not sure if the address is the same.

Another thing to note is that only certain moves make use of this. For example, I can't set the value to non-zero and have Razor Climb juggle infinitely.
I redownloaded this last week and noticed this and just thought to myself "Hah, JZ already had this we'd just talked about in this thread"

It'll be very useful soon! Thank you!