YesNoOk
avatar

Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed) (Read 50757 times)

Started by Gate, June 16, 2011, 04:33:46 pm
Email this topic
View printable version
Share this topic:
Page 7 of 43← First < 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 43 > Last →   Go Down

Iced

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#121  December 20, 2012, 12:39:07 am
  • ******
  • does this look like the face of mercy?
But Snake, they had a specialist, Wolverine, wolverine lived in the same mansion with at least two of the hosts, and neither of them blew the fuck up and tried to eat the moon!
Even assuming that wolverine suddenly got retarded, you still have all the other x-men that could have talked about it, even cyclops word should have been enough for cap to have accepted it instead of coming at them with a shipload of avengers, everything was rushed and nonsense filled in those actions.
Shit even xavier should have stopped everything and gone like "calm down you fuckheads, we been at least through three of those before the last planet blew up."

All the characters become walking stereotypes, the only thing that saves Colossus interpretation is that gillen wrapped up his story with illyanna in an okay manner.


The only thing that could have made this all make sense ( including the weirdass powers) was if they had shot necrom instead of phoenix.
Necrom fits all those weird descriptions.

Jmorphman

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#122  December 20, 2012, 12:42:12 am
  • ******
  • Q.E.D.
    • USA
    • network.mugenguild.com/jmorphman

  • Online
10 years from now we'll find out this was all the result of Sentryboy Prime punching reality too hard.

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#123  December 20, 2012, 12:45:12 am
  • ****
Yeah, see, us sane people over here, we ignore the parts written by Jeph Loeb.

We don't know who the hell this Nova was, or if his testimony was legitimate, or if his narration was reliable. Also, Jeph Loeb.

Quote
"The Phoenix will revive mutanthood !
-But the Phoenix will destroy all life on Earth !
-Screw you !"

No, it was 'we don't believe you'. Cyclops was written like that because it was the culmination of years of character development by Gillen.
Iced said, December 20, 2012, 12:39:07 am
But Snake, they had a specialist, Wolverine, wolverine lived in the same mansion with at least two of the hosts, and neither of them blew the fuck up and tried to eat the moon!
Even assuming that wolverine suddenly got retarded, you still have all the other x-men that could have talked about it, even cyclops word should have been enough for cap to have accepted it instead of coming at them with a shipload of avengers, everything was rushed and nonsense filled in those actions.
Shit even xavier should have stopped everything and gone like "calm down you fuckheads, we been at least through three of those before the last planet blew up."

All the characters become walking stereotypes, the only thing that saves Colossus interpretation is that gillen wrapped up his story with illyanna in an okay manner.


The only thing that could have made this all make sense ( including the weirdass powers) was if they had shot necrom instead of phoenix.
Necrom fits all those weird descriptions.

Wolverine's defining characteristics are his love for Jean, how broken he was by having to be the one that killed her, and how he tries to preserve the innocence of the random pieces of jailbait, Hope in this instance, who he becomes attached to. He just formed his own school so that children would be protected from war. Now, THE child, is going to pushed into something she isn't ready for that may destroy her.

Yes, Wolverine is going to fight this.

Clusterfucks happen when tempers run hot. Of course it was rushed and ridiculous; Cyclops was fighting for his species, Cap was fighting for the world, the last time they interacted it didn't go well at all and both are the authority figures in their respective spheres, and only people. If wars could be stopped by 'people talking', we wouldn't have wars. After a while it just becomes inevitable. This isn't bad writing, this is reflecting life.

Everything here was in character.

DKDC

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#124  December 20, 2012, 12:46:31 am
  • ******
Iced said, December 20, 2012, 12:39:07 am
Shit even xavier should have stopped everything and gone like "calm down you fuckheads, we been at least through three of those before the last planet blew up."
If he had, the writers wouldn't have been able to make Cyclops the new bad guy, because he would have actually been right. But they wanted him to be wrong, so they made it so that the Phoenix was officially bad.

That story was shit from the beginning, but in that story, Cyclops was still wrong, and the Phoenix was still bad. The very point was that Cyclops was destined to be the bad guy, since earlier storylines as Snake said.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#125  December 20, 2012, 12:47:38 am
  • ****
DKDC said, December 20, 2012, 12:46:31 am
Iced said, December 20, 2012, 12:39:07 am
Shit even xavier should have stopped everything and gone like "calm down you fuckheads, we been at least through three of those before the last planet blew up."
If he had, the writers wouldn't have been able to make Cyclops the new bad guy, because he would have actually been right. But they wanted him to be wrong, so they made it so that the Phoenix was officially bad.

That story was shit from the beginning, but in that story, Cyclops was still wrong, and the Phoenix was still bad.

It's like you didn't even read the book.

Neocide

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#126  December 20, 2012, 12:50:01 am
  • ****
  • No cupcakes 4 u
    • USA
    • Skype - Neocide
DKDC said, December 20, 2012, 12:38:42 am
neocide said, December 20, 2012, 12:31:41 am
It wasn't what was "going to happen" it's what they thought was going to happen.
No, it's what the writers declared WOULD happen. Did you miss Nova blazing through half the universe to warn them that the Phoenix was going to destroy them ? It was actually written like that.
"The Phoenix will revive mutanthood !
-But the Phoenix will destroy all life on Earth !
-Screw you !"
This is the only thing Cyclops ever said, and that makes him the new Magneto, because he was written like that. Nothing ever contradicted Nova's announcement. It was canonically true, because it was written like that. You keep saying it wouldn't have happened, but the writers wanted it to be the canonical truth, so yes, it was going to happen. Ergo, Stark & co were right, and Cyclops was wrong. Because it was written like that. Cyclops was written so that he would be the new Magneto. He was written to be the bad guy.

Quote
You seem to try to attack me more than just respond to what I was saying.
You keep bringing the same shit up over and again everyone anyone mentions it.

No it wasn't at all. He mentioned the phoenix was coming there was never any real indication that it would destroy the planet other than nova's ASSUMPTION. Every other time it came it didn't destroy the planet. It was even controlled completely by cyclops daughter rachel for years.

Cyclops knew more about the phoenix than any of the others did and none of the X-men were buying the phoenix destroying the planet bullshit because that's all it was, bullshit. he was right. the end of the damn crossover proved it. Hope brought back all the mutants when the phoenix was finally given to her and she let it go. She was meant to have it. that was his whole god damn point.

And I keep bringing it up because it's fact why he went "Dark phoenix" They pushed him into it.

I don't think you get the concept of the story at all. because you totally aren't getting the fact cyclops was right in knowing hope was supposed to have the phoenix and she was meant to be the messiah.

Jmorphman

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#127  December 20, 2012, 12:52:20 am
  • ******
  • Q.E.D.
    • USA
    • network.mugenguild.com/jmorphman

  • Online
Snakebyte said, December 20, 2012, 12:45:12 am
Yeah, see, us sane people over here, we ignore the parts written by Jeph Loeb.

We don't know who the hell this Nova was, or if his testimony was legitimate, or if his narration was reliable. Also, Jeph Loeb.
Waid wrote that. :P

but regardless, I don't see why one pretty crucial part of the narrative can just be glossed over and ignored. :-\

DKDC

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#128  December 20, 2012, 12:53:38 am
  • ******
neocide said, December 20, 2012, 12:50:01 am
Every other time it came it didn't destroy the planet.
That's the problem, you keep thinking it's supposed to be in line with the previous stories, that's why you assume that the description of the Phoenix given at the very beginning was a mistake from Cap, Nova and everyone.

It's not in line with the previous stories. It's why it's a retcon. If you throw away all previous knowledge of the phoenix (exactly as the writers did) then that description is the one given by the writers, and it says "phoenix = bad".
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#129  December 20, 2012, 12:55:28 am
  • ****
neocide said:
Cyclops knew more about the phoenix than any of the others did and none of the X-men were buying the phoenix destroying the planet bullshit because that's all it was, bullshit. he was right. the end of the damn crossover proved it. Hope brought back all the mutants when the phoenix was finally given to her and she let it go. She was meant to have it. that was his whole god damn point.

This. Cyclops was right.

Quote
Waid wrote that. :P

but regardless, I don't see why one pretty crucial part of the narrative can just be glossed over and ignored. :-\

What? What are you talking about? I'm talking about the stupid AR thing with Nova that barely anyone read. Loeb wrote that. Where did Waid have anything to do with AVX?

Wow, wtf, you're right. Was Waid on DRUGS?!

Quote
That's the problem, you keep thinking it's supposed to be in line with the previous stories, that's why you assume that the description of the Phoenix given at the very beginning was a mistake from Cap, Nova and everyone.

It's not in line with the previous stories. It's why it's a retcon. If you throw away all previous knowledge of the phoenix (exactly as the writers did) then that description is the one given by the writers, and it says "phoenix = bad".

No, it's not a retcon. Every part of the story leads to this being the case. You have no reason to believe it's a retcon.

Jmorphman

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#130  December 20, 2012, 12:57:31 am
  • ******
  • Q.E.D.
    • USA
    • network.mugenguild.com/jmorphman

  • Online
Snakebyte said, December 20, 2012, 12:55:28 am
What? What are you talking about? I'm talking about the stupid AR thing with Nova that barely anyone read. Loeb wrote that.
No, Waid did. And it lots of people liked it because it took great advantage of the AR stuff.

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#131  December 20, 2012, 12:58:40 am
  • ****
See my edit.

No one likes AR I don't believe you you're lying.

DKDC

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#132  December 20, 2012, 12:58:44 am
  • ******
Snakebyte said, December 20, 2012, 12:55:28 am
You have no reason to believe it's a retcon.
Other than the very beginning of it all, the plot hook, Word of God, said the phoenix would do so and so.
It's badly written because, yes, Cap and Stark say "it will destroy Earth" out of nowhere without any indication of that. It's badly written because Wolverine should know the Phoenix and should know they are wrong. But this was handwaved, because it's what the author wanted, and that makes it a retcon which says that the phoenix is bad. Up until now, there was no reason to say the phoenix would kill everything. And suddenly, word of god says it will kill everything. That's a retcon.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#133  December 20, 2012, 01:00:28 am
  • ****
No, the plot hook was a new Nova crashing to earth and saying the phoenix would do so and so, whom Cap and Stark believe.

Wolverine does think they're wrong, but is fighting to save Hope from Jean's fate.

Where is the handwaving?

Iced

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#134  December 20, 2012, 01:01:47 am
  • ******
  • does this look like the face of mercy?
DKDC said, December 20, 2012, 12:58:44 am
Snakebyte said, December 20, 2012, 12:55:28 am
You have no reason to believe it's a retcon.
Other than the very beginning of it all, the plot hook, Word of God, said the phoenix would do so and so.
It's badly written because, yes, Cap and Stark say "it will destroy Earth" out of nowhere without any indication of that. It's badly written because Wolverine should know the Phoenix and should know they are wrong. But this was handwaved, because it's what the author wanted, and that makes it a retcon which says that the phoenix is bad. Up until now, there was no reason to say the phoenix would kill everything. And suddenly, word of god says it will kill everything. That's a retcon.

the word was unreliable, but it will likely not be adressed. So no its not a retcon.
The only thing close to a retcon here is the added powers, reality manipulation on that scale didnt happen with the other phoenixes.

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#135  December 20, 2012, 01:03:54 am
  • ****
You felt it was scaled up from eating a star?

That honestly didn't even occur to me.

Jmorphman

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#136  December 20, 2012, 01:06:22 am
  • ******
  • Q.E.D.
    • USA
    • network.mugenguild.com/jmorphman

  • Online

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#137  December 20, 2012, 01:08:00 am
  • ****
IGN doesn't count.

*sits in the corner and scowls*

Iced

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#138  December 20, 2012, 01:10:40 am
  • ******
  • does this look like the face of mercy?
Snakebyte said, December 20, 2012, 01:03:54 am
You felt it was scaled up from eating a star?

That honestly didn't even occur to me.

It ate life, it always ate life.
creating matter, shifting reality, infusing powers, changing organic life?
Yes it was extremely scaled, they were made into supermen. When phoenix ate a star it was the phoenix, not one of its hosts, and it was using as most of its power as it could.  Here it was stupidly powerful in a way that no hosts ( even those that were extremely powerful by themselves) had ever done.

If rachel had ever been that powerful she would be doing more with it than punching galactus in the nose once.

DKDC

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#139  December 20, 2012, 01:10:53 am
  • ******
Here are literally the first pages of issue 1 of AvX :
-page 1 : alien planet, a kid and his father ; bright light
-page 2 and 3 : holy shit single panel of a giant phoenix destroying everything
-page 4 and 5 : a few wide panels of the phoenix with its flame covering the horizon of the same planet, presumably with the same results as above. We see the planet turning entirely red (previously mostly blue) in the last panel as the phoenix flies into space, as in, burning red.

The first thing we see of the phoenix in this storyline is destroying a planet. This isn't the perception of a character that probably doesn't know better. It literally shows us the phoenix destroying a planet just because it's in its path.

(also Cap & co didn't blindly listen to Nova, Nova didn't even get to speak to them ; they studied his state and figured Nova actually fought the phoenix before coming to Earth)
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 01:15:01 am by DKDC

Snakebyte

Re: Marvel Universe discussion (no filthy muties allowed)
#140  December 20, 2012, 01:14:52 am
  • ****
Iced said, December 20, 2012, 01:10:40 am
Snakebyte said, December 20, 2012, 01:03:54 am
You felt it was scaled up from eating a star?

That honestly didn't even occur to me.

It ate life, it always ate life.
creating matter, shifting reality, infusing powers, changing organic life?
Yes it was extremely scaled, they were made into supermen. When phoenix ate a star it was the phoenix, not one of its hosts, and it was using as most of its power as it could.  Here it was stupidly powerful in a way that no hosts ( even those that were extremely powerful by themselves) had ever done.

If rachel had ever been that powerful she would be doing more with it than punching galactus in the nose once.

I thought the entire point of the hosts was to restrain the Phoenix's power, and 'eating a star' wasn't directed or malicious, it just felt like eating a star. Where did you get the idea that that was the limit of its powers? It was just something it did casually, revelling in its power.

As for that other stuff? The Phoenix is 'fire and life incarnate'. It always has been. It's as much about creation as it is about destruction. Creating and changing life seems very, very par for the course to me.

But I freely admit this is my own interpretations.

DKDC: Yes, when you are a cosmic force, you have to be very careful to refrain from killing whatever's in your way. The Phoenix not looking where it was going is different from the Phoenix going on a killing spree, and it's easy to see how NovaSamCancerMan confused the two.
Page 7 of 43← First < 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 43 > Last →   Go Up