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MUGEN Releases tact and values refined (Read 8175 times)

Started by Just No Point, January 31, 2014, 05:48:14 pm
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Killer Kong

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#61  February 01, 2014, 06:53:28 pm
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I wouldn't care who it was who did this and I'd still be saying the same things and thinking the same way. I don't know why you'd assume otherwise.

Shwa

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#62  February 01, 2014, 06:56:16 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 05:56:56 pm
How can you be surprised someone replied to a trigger named "massah" , a racist word?

Iced, we've already discussed last night that the use of the word "MASSAH" in this context isn't racist as
  • it could potentially refer to both Master Gambit by LaQuak (hence MASSAH GAMBIT) and personal leftovers
  • modified english vernacular does not equal to old slave lingo, in this current day and age no less

One thing I find ironic is that this spread out discussion over ethics and etiquette have brought in more attention over this one individual than any of his releases' Fuck You lists combined - that have been the main focus of this topic - supposedly would have, carrying on old assumptions of a rampant ill will.

I feel like this has degraded into mere instigating than a legitimate concern.

Iced

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#63  February 01, 2014, 07:14:25 pm
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incredible. "OH NO MASSAH GAMBIT DON' BEAT LITTLE OL' ME" being an old racist sentence doesnt go away because "oh its a joke you just dont understand it" which was what you told me yesterday. I searched around and asked a ton of people, uniformly people told me it was a racist remark. Anyone reading it would think so, not just go "psh its a joke shush"

Somehow trying to moderate one person always end up with cries of persecution. The same which didnt show up when wildtengu got moderated for using racist lingo as well, or when maverick was insulting people.

Koopakoot tells me that he changed and stopped being volatile, I told him that I kinda hoped he was right but couldnt assume it.
Koop himself dislikes the insults and thinks they do more harm than good.

All the reactions in this thread tell me is that everyone knows he will keep doing this kind of behaviour and they dont want anyone to be allowed to reply to it or comment on it as it happens.
If you trusted him to have changed so much there wouldnt be so much fussing about to make it seem like warning someone over insults was a big bad thing.


Those "jokes" are in bad taste and make us look like complete asses to outsiders, the insutls to balth, everything else, is a constant that you are all so used to that you wont even react to. It shocks every one of you more that warnings are being made about it than that its done to begin with.  Some people posting here werent posting at all until the warning come.
You yourself shwa, react to this by ignoring the insults and trying to excuse some of them as jokes, ignoring the rest. Somehow the fault on those is on the receiver never the creator. I guess balthazar being annoyed at that potshot at him is his fault for not knowing what a joke is as well.



The moderation warning has been delivered, from the start of this thread, from now on this type of action will be taken in account when someone complains.

You can all go back to pretend any of you would give a care in the world about this if it wasnt about a buddy.
Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:18:30 pm by Iced

Killer Kong

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#64  February 01, 2014, 07:22:57 pm
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That's a lot of nerve for you to say this about me. Go back to pretending? Maybe I shouldn't be as offended as I am, but I for one happen to be damn displeased at the assumption that I "wouldn't care" otherwise. But hey, whatever man. I'll just go back to "pretending". Evidently my opinion is devalued because I'm in good standing with a lot of people.

Shwa

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#65  February 01, 2014, 07:26:41 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:14:25 pm
incredible. Massah being an old racist word doesnt go away because "oh its a joke you just dont understand it" which was what you told me yesterday.
I didn't tell you that, I said you guys were looking into it way too much, as there was nothing more than what was there. You are doing this on purpose, aren't you.

The difference between Tengu's use of words and here is that Tengu was intentionally griefing. There is no denying that he attempted so several times in public. This is like comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not ignoring the insults because there are no insults that fit any context outside of maybe that "Z2 headswap" trigger, which could mean literally anything by now.

You are somehow saying all this as if I believe no one is in the wrong but those actually causing all this ruckus, but the fact of the matter is, this entire discussion should not even be taking place. It could've been fine if it wasn't directly stealth-targeting one individual out of possibly many that certain folks aren't digging their heads in code lines to find.

This isn't a sort of thing you can police because it is broad and covers an entire community that has been around since flippin' '99. There could be old stuff out there with direct offense over ancient squabble that suddenly resurfaces, but would anyone really care to pay it any mind unless it was to start something?
This whole thing shouldn't be enforced, only encouraged.

Iced

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#66  February 01, 2014, 07:30:29 pm
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no one is saying to go back and search old stuff to find old squabbles that is ridiculous and has been repeatedly reinforced by everyone to not be the case.

Jnp is even saying that we will only start actively enforcing moderation over those things in a week time.
How the hell does that turn in a "we will search every crook and cranny of code and ban creations that are insulting long gone persons" ?

I even repeatedly said that we would act only if someone got offended and complained, or if it caused any issues .


you just did the victim accusing thing again, somehow its more troublesome someone found it than that someone put it there.

Shwa

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#67  February 01, 2014, 07:33:56 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:30:29 pm
Jnp is even saying that we will only start actively enforcing moderation over those things in a week time.
How the hell does that turn in a "we will search every crook and cranny of code and ban creations that are insulting long gone persons" ?
Wasn't Bluestreak out since 2012? Why does that suddenly matter now?

Because this is exactly what I'm reflecting right now.

Titiln

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#68  February 01, 2014, 07:34:36 pm
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as far as i can tell it's not going to be any more enforced than posts. it's not going to cause an instant permanent ban. it's not going to cause instant thread deletion. you're all forgetting that staff here are for the most part very lenient and bans are usually not handed out without several warnings and dialogue. all this means is that there's no difference between me posting gbk is a cunt and me releasing a character in which i include a readme that calls gbk a cunt. if gbk reports the release thread then a moderator would have to tell me to stop that shit, because "don't be a shithead" also extends to things i release. i can't believe this thread is still going at this point.

Iced

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#69  February 01, 2014, 07:40:52 pm
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Shwa said, February 01, 2014, 07:33:56 pm
Wasn't Bluestreak out since 2012? Why does that suddenly matter now?

Because this is exactly what I'm reflecting right now.

if you and koop and vans and kong didnt believe he was going to keep doing that constantly you wouldnt all be so pressed to try to prove that dont be a shithead extending to the releases is a terrible thing.
The only reason there is a reaction is because you all believe he will do the same and worse in the future.

The reason we clarified the rule is because we dont trust him to not be volatile anymore, the reason you are all so keen to try to make it sound monstrous is because you feel the same.

If anything, bluestreak that was created in 2012  and updated since having those shows us that this kind of stuff is happening in the recent past and should be considered. So you proved our point.


Titiln said, February 01, 2014, 07:34:36 pm
as far as i can tell it's not going to be any more enforced than posts. it's not going to cause an instant permanent ban. it's not going to cause instant thread deletion. you're all forgetting that staff here are for the most part very lenient and bans are usually not handed out without several warnings and dialogue. all this means is that there's no difference between me posting gbk is a cunt and me releasing a character in which i include a readme that calls gbk a cunt. if gbk reports the release thread then a moderator would have to tell me to stop that shit, because "don't be a shithead" also extends to things i release. i can't believe this thread is still going at this point.

Its someone friend and somehow its worse than moderating maverick and other volatile persons.


he needs to earn our trust before we dont feel he is volatile anymore, that doesnt mean every other user will have to ignore his behaviour and insults . That is all.

Shwa

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#70  February 01, 2014, 07:48:54 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:40:52 pm
if you and koop and vans and kong didnt believe he was going to keep doing that constantly you wouldnt all be so pressed to try to prove that dont be a shithead extending to the releases is a terrible thing.
The only reason there is a reaction is because you all believe he will do the same and worse in the future.
Why are you targeting us four individuals right now? No, seriously. The only insult I see is towards my integrity.
If this were merely for "dont be a shithead" extended to releases, this entire discussion would not be happening right now.

This is entirely unnecessary. I will admit I misread the original purpose, but if now the entire schtick is to antagonize anyone defending "x", I'm sitting here trying to remain 100% neutral, having had some negative bias towards the whole subject of interest for quite a long time, now trying to understand the point of this thread's current status.

I assume we're not going to get anywhere with this, so I will just try and make this clear.
There is literally no point.

Koop

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#71  February 01, 2014, 07:49:28 pm
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Iced's stuff is all in bold

Koopakoot, you were stillstaff when we started discussing this, it was even that event you dealt with that started this internal discussion.

Yes I was. I was the only one who did anything. I asked another mod and he said "too late"

why do all defenses to this behaviour ignore completely the actions he takes and the people he offends or insults?

Defence? Where have I said that I'm for insults and stupid readmes? Since JZ's return to mfg, I don't think he's offended anyone. What's been happening is that things he did in the past keep getting brought up.

Why do all keep making allowances specifically to a guy because he is your friend?

I've told him to remove those sections before. I don't think I was making any allowances. JZ's my friend yes, but so are you. When I was a mod I would always tackle the situations I did neutrally.

Why is it more shocking to warn ahead that he will start getting moderated over those than it is that he is doing it and has been doing for a long time?

Koop , If he had gotten moderated over it in a couple of weeks without a pubilc warning now then you would all be here claiming persecution. It says so in the first post that this had to be made public due to how many people were praising the insults, how is it shocking then that it was made public?

I have no problem with this. But once again. This has nothing to do with any other members of this forum. What reaction were you expecting when you okayed this thread?

Even that derail, you are basically asking that someone doesnt get to answer for what he types inside what he releases. How can you be surprised someone replied to a trigger named "massah" , a racist word? Not to mention the trigger potshoting balthazar.

Looking through code for insults is almost as sad as putting insults in code. I don't agree with either. Other members of the community shouldn't be insulted like that. Bringing it up again (to the wrong person) over a year after the fact seems a bit like grasping at straws/trying to start a fire to me. Why wasn't a thread like this made when it was relevant? JZ wasn't posting here at the time.

...so many posts made since I started...let's see....

Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:14:25 pm
You can all go back to pretend any of you would give a care in the world about this if it wasnt about a buddy.

This wouldn't have been done to anyone else.     
PotS said, May 13, 2009, 11:32:35 pm
Is a mess. :gonk: Needs sexy new coding to go with sexy sprites.

Iced

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#72  February 01, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
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Shwa, my intent is not target you four, i pointed out you four because in the past posts you were those that were taking that stance. I am sorry if it sounded like i was doubting your integrity, what im doubting is why is this a huge issue for you.
If you say its beecause there is Just no point to this rule, then whats the bother? If there is not that much of a point to it, then it will never come a time to pass where jz will start up this kind of behaviour again and no one will be offended by his future actions?


Koop, my points to you were both the sentenecs with your name, im aware you dont enjoy this behaviour, we have discussed it before a lot and I know you dont enjoy it or stand by it.

Quote
I have no problem with this. But once again. This has nothing to do with any other members of this forum. What reaction were you expecting when you okayed this thread?
There was no "expected" reaction, there was the certainty that with so many people praising it that they had to be told that this behaviour would not be accepted henceforth.
If you see someone praising a rude gesture in public and tell everyone that rude gestures will be seen sternly do you expect anything from the crowd praising it?
Are you telling us that we should fear the reaction?


Also here, you see me reacting to shwa saying he was insulted, and its the right thing to do react, you see people react to jz insults and we are supposed to ignore them and shush ourselves. Somehow iced perceived insults are terrible but jz insults are jokes yall dont understand. Nice.

One other thing, you all seem to think that pointing out very public behaviour is some kind of rude offense, but the public behaviour that causes the situation is not. Can you not see how wrong this is?
Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:59:51 pm by Iced

Alpaca-San

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#73  February 01, 2014, 08:00:12 pm
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This isn't about Jesuszilla to me. This is about limitation towards free expression. Like, if I update my C. Evil Ryu and announce its update here, will I get shit for it because it is satire of bad custom MUGEN characters that it did offend some people when it was first released? Am I going to wake up in the morning afterwards to see people deliberately trying to crap up my thread and deliberately instigate me into this "volatile behavior" and that will be completely acceptable because my C. Evil Ryu has a blatantly satirical special fucks section?

Vans said, January 15, 2014, 10:25:02 pm
I'm also under the impression that people keep neglecting data from the game, do you guys know how PotS made his original characters? He actually studied every single game he referenced, down to the core. Doing this properly requires understanding how the original system was made, not just winging it.

Iced

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#74  February 01, 2014, 08:09:29 pm
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  • does this look like the face of mercy?
if someone gets actually offended, yes, if not, no.
If  you say , tell jz to go fuck a goat and he is mad at you for insulting him, moderators will tell you to cut that shit out, we would also do it if you were telling jz to go fuck a goat in a post.

Koop

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#75  February 01, 2014, 08:16:14 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
One other thing, you all seem to think that pointing out very public behaviour is some kind of rude offense, but the public behaviour that causes the situation is not. Can you not see how wrong this is?

Who is the recipient to all this "offence?"
PotS said, May 13, 2009, 11:32:35 pm
Is a mess. :gonk: Needs sexy new coding to go with sexy sprites.

Shwa

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#76  February 01, 2014, 08:17:57 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
Shwa, my intent is not target you four, i pointed out you four because in the past posts you were those that were taking that stance. I am sorry if it sounded like i was doubting your integrity, what im doubting is why is this a huge issue for you.
If you say its beecause there is Just no point to this rule, then whats the bother? If there is not that much of a point to it, then it will never come a time to pass where jz will start up this kind of behaviour again and no one will be offended by his future actions?
Alright. This will be the last thing I say in this thread.

I was not talking about the pointlessness of this rule. I was talking about the pointlessness of this discussion and how a generally good intent suddenly singles out Jesuszilla as a prime troublemaker with little to no chances at believing otherwise. I am honestly fine with the rule being set, but I'm not okay with this blatant "J'ACCUSE" going on. What, a rule about "not being a shithead" should guarantee that bad blood has to come back, and that old habits can never die? We are talking about bullshit that has not happened for over a long time, and as magic, it spontaneously becomes a main concern? Happily coinciding with that one user's return and some bumblefuck trying to stir shit by pointing out now irrelevant triggers that don't even work? (that could've just been left as "those triggers don't work")

Don't act as if you yourself did not have any sort of bias towards this entire thing, as by grouping around certain individuals that may have appeared as some "JZ defense force" to you AND from that quote, you have shown distrust of that one individual over shit that does not hold up with whatever intent was had for this rule and/or topic, unless it was to directly address him in fear of... fear of what, exactly?

I will confess that I have not spoken to Jesuszilla in some time as I have been avoiding any sort of contact to avoid conflict over stupid shit we can't agree on. I've told a couple of people, yourself included. So why in the blue hell did it seem like I'm taking sides for calling out on accusations perhaps no longer hold any footing? That is something I cannot stand by. That is something I absolutely despise.

I would've been fine with whatever rule and discussion had over the topic if it didn't center over one example as an overblown public warning for one person. It is difficult for me to both find reason within all this and cast mine ire aside for something like that.

Alpaca-San

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#77  February 01, 2014, 08:21:43 pm
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Iced said, February 01, 2014, 08:09:29 pm
if someone gets actually offended, yes, if not, no.
If  you say , tell jz to go fuck a goat and he is mad at you for insulting him, moderators will tell you to cut that shit out, we would also do it if you were telling jz to go fuck a goat in a post.

And that's an answer I was afraid of. That's a broad answer. I hope not broad enough to say "As a Juni player, I feel that Divinewolf's Juli is an insult to me for my preference because she has Juni's unique moves including a quarter circle version of that Bison summon move which tells me that Juni is a pointless existence. I am offended by these blasphemies against me for playing who I like to play as. It sounds silly but I just feel that way so plz moderate divinewolf"? You need to beware of the inherent problems with censorship.

Vans said, January 15, 2014, 10:25:02 pm
I'm also under the impression that people keep neglecting data from the game, do you guys know how PotS made his original characters? He actually studied every single game he referenced, down to the core. Doing this properly requires understanding how the original system was made, not just winging it.

Titiln

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#78  February 01, 2014, 08:26:28 pm
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Alpaca-San said, February 01, 2014, 08:21:43 pm
I hope not broad enough to say "As a Juni player, I feel that Divinewolf's Juli is an insult to me for my preference because she has Juni's unique moves including a quarter circle version of that Bison summon move which tells me that Juni is a pointless existence. I am offended by these blasphemies against me for playing who I like to play as. It sounds silly but I just feel that way so plz moderate divinewolf"?
it would be disregarded in the same way dumb reports have been disregarded since forever. don't be ridiculous

Iced

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#79  February 01, 2014, 08:30:30 pm
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One Eyed Othinus said, February 01, 2014, 08:16:14 pm
Iced said, February 01, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
One other thing, you all seem to think that pointing out very public behaviour is some kind of rude offense, but the public behaviour that causes the situation is not. Can you not see how wrong this is?

Who is the recipient to all this "offence?"
The offense at the pointing out of the pubilc behaviour?  Everyone asking why its being dig up instead of asking why it exists in the first place?


Shwa. I make no attempts to claim impartiaity, I have literally said that I dont trust him to not be volatile, its right there in the same post. The way you were wording it seemed to be in an attempt to claim the rule was a very ill conceived thing that should not exist, which is why I thought you were defending jz against it. I am sorry if my reading of the situation was wrong.

Cmon Arpa, seriously? Thats like saying that the shithead rule that exists right now prevents you from posting male pronouns because someone might get offended that you are not considering the ts movement.

Jesuszilla

Re: MUGEN Releases tact and values refined
#80  February 01, 2014, 08:31:37 pm
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Oh my god, are you people still harping on about this?

I honestly had no intention whatsoever of putting fuck you sections in future readmes because NOBODY WHO IS WORTH TALKING ABOUT HAS PISSED ME OFF IN THE LAST YEAR.

I'm not going to remove what's there, and you know why? Because somebody is just going to bring it up again and shit up my thread anyway, because clearly people won't move on.

I came back with only the intention to help and hype up WIP's, yet you clearly won't let me do that unless I play by your damn rules. Jango would have done the same thing regardless, only if I did it myself, he'd be accusing me of trying to hide it.

As for the stupid triggers, I once again got the idea from Most Mysterious because I thought it was funny and I didn't think anybody would get offended over some stupid satire or commentary (like when MC2 somehow thought I was talking about him when I called Wolverine a selfish dick or whatever, because THAT'S WHAT HE IS. Fuck Wolverine, now ban me for saying that.)

I thought by coming back and focusingonly on MUGEN and the help sections, instead of the STUPID BULLSHIT in ATL, I would have made that clear.

You have no idea what I've done, how much has changed, who all I've talked to, or ANYTHING ELSE about me whatsoever, because I haven't talked to any of you! And you know what? I don't want to. You people clearly just want to cling onto the past, so why should I uselessly pretend and basically bow to you?

I've explained my reasoning, what I plan to do, what I honestly am doing, and that's final.
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