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Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st) (Read 5947 times)

Started by Sean Altly, October 07, 2010, 04:53:14 am
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benimarucollider

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#21  October 09, 2010, 04:07:16 pm
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Somewhat decent, but still a lot of problems, and some major flaws.

Specifically:

- Special/Super suplex grabs have no limiter, allowing them to combo from blockstun
- Backwards dodge has no collision boxes at any time at all

General system gripes:

- Your newer characters still tend to lack ANY low hitting normals (like this one)
- Air combos aren't technically "combos" due to lack of fall recover times
- Sweeps need to either take all juggle points or have frame data that doesn't allow you to JUGGLE after them
- Launchers still cancel into the LANDING state instead of a jump when you tap (not hold) UF, even on BLOCK
- You STILL have your NORMALS doing BLOCK DAMAGE?
- Launcher glitch + normal move block damage = BLOCK DAMAGE RAPE (Kaze's AI abuses pretty extensively, though I'm not sure it's intentional)

For an example of the last one, most of your characters actually have a BLOCK INFINITE that does damage, that goes: some medium normal>launcher>UF>walk F a bit, repeat. To fix this, changestate controller needs to point to state 40, not state 50. State 50 is MID jump, not the jump START, and because your Y position is already 0, you land instantly.

Otherwise, I'm quite pleased with your improvement overall so far.
"I'll change MY direction! Yeah." - Benimaru
Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 05:15:21 pm by benimarucollider

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#22  October 09, 2010, 10:01:55 pm
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Yes, I STILL have my NORMALS doing BLOCK DAMAGE. I've told people before that's just how the SHADEs system works. It's a personal preference. Otherwise I'll look into your other concerns.

-I'm assuming you mean the retreating Juke/Jive, which is supposed to function like a teleport. The other one has clsns on it because I realized afterwards I didn't really need any.
-I'll fix the block stun/grab thing.
-I will add low hitting normals, which is a little thing I forget to do a lot.
-Thanks for pointing out the Launcher problem, I just fixed it.

I appreciate your feedback, and I'm quite impressed at how your attitude has improved. Now if you'd just stop doing things like making videos called "Kamekaze is Dumb" because you don't like how his AI works, your attitude would be even better. As of right now though, it's somewhat decent. :P
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.

Cybaster

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#23  October 10, 2010, 11:33:44 am
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- Typo for Double German Suplex in the PNG readme.
- Runaway Train and DM have bad transparency on the yellow Super FX.

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#24  October 10, 2010, 12:08:18 pm
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CyFagster said, October 10, 2010, 11:33:44 am
- Typo for Double German Suplex in the PNG readme.
- Runaway Train and DM have bad transparency on the yellow Super FX.

I'm honestly not sure which FX you're talking about. The only FX on those two moves are the wind blast type deal for when he's moving really fast, but it's blue and seemed to have the correct transparency.
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.

Cybaster

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#25  October 10, 2010, 04:17:37 pm
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Forget it, it's my fault : I was using the KOFXI lifebars with a particular set of hitsparks, and this Superpause FX has problems... :gonk:

The character is nice, as usual. His moves really fit the heavy type and are cool.

Orochi Gill

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#26  October 10, 2010, 10:26:52 pm
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If anything, Tamez' FF7 sparks work best with this one (especially with his hammer).

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#27  November 21, 2010, 11:15:57 pm
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****Update November 21st, 2010****

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I released an update for Sabotage with the help of Kamekaze. Here's what's updated:

-First of all, the AI has been totally revamped by Kamekaze. You'll notice the difference, trust me.
-Most of benimarucollider's complaints from above have been addressed. Specifically:
  -Fixed the launcher problem
  -Added low hitting normals
  -Fixed sweep/juggle issue
  -Fixed the throw problem
  -Added clsns to his backwards dodge (Jive)
-The biggest one though is that I've decided to not have normals do block damage anymore. I am fully aware that I was going against the grain by doing that since normals don't usually do block damage in professional games, bit I liked the idea of it myself. However, we've decided that since the SHADEs 2 full game has a Guard Crush system, that normals doing block damage isn't necessary. All of my released SHADEs 2 characters will be getting this update soon.
-Changed the command for his DM to QCF,QCF+K for easier execution since OrochiGill had said it was a bit unreliable, and I realized the previous command (QCF,HCB+P) was in conflict with his Double German Suplex command (HCB+P).

I think that's about it. Enjoy the update guys, I hope it makes him a better character overall.
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.
Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 11:20:29 pm by Charlie Nash, INTERPOL!

Orochi Gill

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#28  November 21, 2010, 11:20:18 pm
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It conflicted with that? I wasn't even aware of that.

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#29  November 21, 2010, 11:27:38 pm
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The command conflicted with the command for his Double German Suplex. I mean, both commands worked, it's just that it was easy to get the Suplex whenever you were trying to do the DM. Also, I'd hold off for a couple of minutes before you download, I just found out that the Launcher issue got unfixed when Kamekaze sent me the revised .cmd, it still has the follow up going to state 50 instead of the new state. Zeckle is uploading the updated update now.  :sugoi:

EDIT: I'm discovering now that Kamekaze didn't use my updated .cmd when he made the new AI, so his DM command is still the same as well. We're fixing this. argh.
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.
Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 11:32:55 pm by Charlie Nash, INTERPOL!

Orochi Gill

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#30  November 21, 2010, 11:31:35 pm
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Very well.

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly
#31  November 21, 2010, 11:42:01 pm
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Alright, sorry about all that guys, that was a blunder on my part. I should have checked this stuff more thoroughly before releasing it. Anyway, the new version is uploaded and the problems are fixed. This version also includes the revised Launcher Follow-Up state that has some FX and which fixes the problem benimarucollider pointed out. That was an ordeal, but enjoy!
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.

Cybaster

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#32  November 23, 2010, 11:09:37 pm
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- Large portrait is that of Shades' screenpack, not the regular one.
- The PNG readme still has a typo for Double German Suplex.
- No CLSN during Seismic Hammer's rising is kinda cheap IMO. Maybe using a NotHitby and making him hittable by projectiles at least (on his upper body only if you want him to have invincibility on the lower part to be able to use the move to jump over projectiles) would balance things out.

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#33  November 24, 2010, 01:29:13 am
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-Yeah, I noticed this when OrochiGill put up a vid. Zeckle fixed it and reuploaded it yesterday I believe.
-I forgot to fix that, sorry.
-Yeah, I guess I can do that, I've just always liked the way it works, since it has so much start-up it's really easy to avoid and punish. I think if he could be hit on the way up it would make the move nearly useless. Maybe the whole move needs to be re-tooled.
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.

benimarucollider

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#34  November 24, 2010, 02:56:31 am
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Wow. I was going to say something about the block damage being overkill when the fullgame already has a guard crush system, and how "it's a personal preference" doesn't hold water as an argument for something you coded into your custom MUGEN character, but you came to the realization on your own. Plus, you fixed the launcher problem, got Kamekaze to fix the AI to match, and addressed all but one issue I brought up. You're better at this game than I thought.  :sugoi:

Unfortunately, you're not done fixing him yet, because you failed to completely fix his biggest problem, more problems came to my attention after my first post, and you didn't really say anything in response to my feedback on his air normals.

First of all, you didn't really fix the double and triple suplexes, because they can still be done during the opponent's blockstun, and they can connect just as they recover, which makes them technically combo even from blockstun because MUGEN is stupid like that. I told you how to fix this, but you didn't do it: he needs the same limiter from the normal grab that makes it impossible to do during the opponent's hitstun or blockstun, basically meaning "p2movetype != H" needs to be a triggerALL for the move (including the AI coding for it, so Kamekaze needs to know this, too). While you're at it, grabs also need to not be active (being able to hit) for more than one frame, the double suplex needs just a little bit of start-up time, and all the grabs need sufficiently long whiff animations that they're actually punishable by most characters if you avoid them by jumping. The clsn needs work as well; it should NOT have a SLIVER of infinite priority (in fact, the CLSN1 should be well inside the CLSN2), unless you want to put a range limiter on it ("p2bodydist X < n", where n is the range, as a trigger).

Before I address the other problem I found, I must tell you that MUGEN is weird when it comes to handling HitBy and NotHitBy controllers, particularly when you want their first values to be SCA. Thanks to elecbyte's stupidity, the way they actually work is that if you input SCA as the first value of a NotHitby controller, it ignores the following values and assumes you want full-blown, 100% invincibility for the duration of the controller. However, if you omit the value altogether (leaving a comma), it defaults to SCA without causing the controller to ignore the other values. HitBy controllers work in the exact opposite way: you canNOT omit the first value, or it will ignore the following values and give you full-blown, 100% invincibility for the duration of the controller. They're both useful, though, because if you want fewer types of invulnerability than types of vulnerability, a HitBy controller needs fewer values to make that happen, whereas if you want more types of invulnerability than types of vulnerability, a NotHitBy controller needs fewer values.

Naturally, the reason this affects your Sabotage is that all of his partially vulnerable moves besides the light version of Ascension use the NotHitBy controller with SCA as the first value, and 100% invulnerability on his dashing straights is particularly broken, making them quite spammable because not only are they safe on block, but you can't stuff them, which in turn makes them a stupid good tick setup for his double suplex, even if you were to fix that move like I said. I know it's silly how they work, but you have to make them work correctly, because the shit he's capable of now is just wrong.

One more thing I want you to take into account, with all these balance fixes, is something that I can only tell you after I explain the air recovery threshold and fall recovertimes. The threshold is something that probably doesn't actually exist in any fighting game with air recovery, which prevents air recovery until you've passed a certain y velocity. Normally, it's zero (meaning you can only air recover when you're moving downward, or after you've reached the apex of being launched even slightly), but some people lower it to -1 for accuracy's sake.

Now, let me tell you something: the air recovery threshold is the only way that anyone besides some characters with really messed up fall states can air recover any sooner than other characters can from the same attack. The fall.recovertime parameter is in NO way able to be bypassed. The only problem with it, however, is that it counts down during the p2 pausetime, and it can pass before that value has passed (especially because fall.recovertime defaults to a measly four), making the attack instantly air recoverable if it doesn't hit them upward, or doesn't hit them up high enough if their air recovery threshold is lowered. All this means is that you need to set some fall recover times on all your air normals if you want them to actually be able to combo versus characters with lowered air recovery thresholds. I promise you that characters with normal air recovery thresholds will still be able to recover from them at the same times. I would suggest making the values for light and medium attacks come out to the same time as the air.hittime values. I noticed that you put large ones on the jumping heavy attacks. That's cool.

Hope you can handle all this. I know it's a wall of text, but every bit of this information is extremely useful.
"I'll change MY direction! Yeah." - Benimaru
Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:36:05 am by benimarucollider

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#35  November 24, 2010, 05:26:47 am
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Quote
Wow. I was going to say something about the block damage being overkill when the fullgame already has a guard crush system, and how "it's a personal preference" doesn't hold water as an argument for something you coded into your custom MUGEN character, but you came to the realization on your own.


Well, since it's a custom character I coded, I think saying it's a personal preference does hold water as an argument since I have control over everything. It's just that not everyone in Mugen has the block stun system, so I included the block damage since I liked it that way. However, in the end I decided enough people didn't like it and that it would be too confusing to have one version with block damage for releases and another version without for the full game, so I dropped it.

Quote
Plus, you fixed the launcher problem, got Kamekaze to fix the AI to match, and addressed all but one issue I brought up. You're better at this game than I thought.  :sugoi:

Uh...thanks?  :) I've always told people that I'm always willing to improve, and if someone can give me specific, helpful feedback beyond "this sucks" or "this is broken, fix it," I can and will fix the problems. I enjoy creating for Mugen too much to be stubborn or unwilling to become better at it. Nothing's worth doing if you're not going to at least try to do it right.

Quote
First of all, you didn't really fix the double and triple suplexes, because they can still be done during the opponent's blockstun, and they can connect just as they recover, which makes them technically combo even from blockstun because MUGEN is stupid like that. I told you how to fix this, but you didn't do it: he needs the same limiter from the normal grab that makes it impossible to do during the opponent's hitstun or blockstun, basically meaning "p2movetype != H" needs to be a triggerALL for the move


Oh, well, I didn't ignore it, I did add the limiter that the normal throw has, I just didn't know it had to be a triggerall because it's not a triggerall on the regular throw. It was just this:

trigger1 = (p2statetype = S) || (p2statetype = C)
trigger1 = p2movetype != H
trigger2 = (p2statetype = S) || (p2statetype = C)
trigger2 = p2movetype != H

So I copied that and pasted into his other throws. I'll change it to triggerall though.

Quote
Naturally, the reason this affects your Sabotage is that all of his partially vulnerable moves besides the light version of Ascension use the NotHitBy controller with SCA as the first value, and 100% invulnerability on his dashing straights is particularly broken, making them quite spammable because not only are they safe on block, but you can't stuff them, which in turn makes them a stupid good tick setup for his double suplex, even if you were to fix that move like I said. I know it's silly how they work, but you have to make them work correctly, because the shit he's capable of now is just wrong.

Alright, I'll take a look at that and fix it. What amount of invulnerability on the dashing punches would you suggest? I feel he needs some, or do you think the move is fast enough and useful enough to not need any invulnerability at all?

Quote
...you need to set some fall recover times on all your air normals if you want them to actually be able to combo versus characters with lowered air recovery thresholds. I promise you that characters with normal air recovery thresholds will still be able to recover from them at the same times. I would suggest making the values for light and medium attacks come out to the same time as the air.hittime values. I noticed that you put large ones on the jumping heavy attacks. That's cool.

Ah, I see, I'll definitely fix this. To be honest, I didn't fully understand the issue with the air combos, but I do now and I'll set some appropriate fall.recover times. I didn't ignore the issue, I just didn't want to make you explain it, but you did anyway and I thank you for it.

Quote
Hope you can handle all this. I know it's a wall of text, but every bit of this information is extremely useful.

I do appreciate it, and I will be releasing updated versions of my other characters to include all of these fixes as well.
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.

benimarucollider

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#36  November 24, 2010, 06:24:10 am
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Thank you so much. I cannot express how happy it makes me that I've finally managed to communicate with another coder on a level that has allowed them to improve this much. I mean, really, you've shown me SO much progress since S.H.A.D.E.S. 1 that I can hardly believe I'm seeing this right now.

Well, about the invulnerability controllers, I guess I need to clarify this further. The other values besides the first define what movetypes to include invulnerability (or vulnerability) to, but if you put SCA as the first in a NotHitBy, it assumes you want the other values in the same string to be defined as the following: AA, AT, AP, meaning it gives invulnerability to EVERYTHING, which is as good as completely lacking any CLSN boxes. It has nothing to do with the length; that is defined by the time value the point at which it is triggered. Conversely, if you omit SCA in a HitBy, it ignores the following values and somehow assumes that you're not defining any further values in the string, which also makes the controller cause invulnerability to everything.

Hope that makes enough sense for you.
"I'll change MY direction! Yeah." - Benimaru

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#37  November 24, 2010, 06:34:24 am
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Oh, I understood that, I was just looking for advice on whether or not the moves should have any invulnerability at all. You said that 100% invulnerability is broken and that the shit he was capable of was wrong, so I was wondering if he should even have any invulnerability at all in the move.

Also, I was wondering why you don't create for Mugen? You seem to have a deep knowledge of how fighting games and Mugen work, it seems like you'd be a natural, at least at the coding aspect. If you do create, I didn't know because I was just going by the stars under your name.
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.

benimarucollider

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#38  November 24, 2010, 07:23:19 am
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I can see from the coding of the forward dash straights that they were only intended to go through projectiles. That's perfectly fine. It's just being able to go through actual attacks makes them stupid hard to just stuff if a Sabotage player were to spam them, essentially forcing his opponent to just keep blocking and try to guess when he's just suddenly going to double german his ass and start the whole damn process over again. Fortunately, with my fix, they should be perfectly stuffable if you see them coming, like in a spam-fest.

I sort of do create, just not full characters. Unlike some people, I'm willing to adimt that as much as I do know, I'm still learning. I've actually made a really good edit of IronMugen's Kula, and I'm working on one of Dragon Claw. I've got a video where I show off a late version of my DC edit, and I'm planning to further improve my edited version of Iron's King, as well as several other projects, now that I've gained some real confidence in my coding abilities. I think I'll release my Kula soon, and my Dragon Claw soon after.

You should really check out my last three videos. I'm quite proud of them, myself.
"I'll change MY direction! Yeah." - Benimaru

benimarucollider

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#39  November 26, 2010, 07:37:16 am
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I just thought I'd use this thread to suggest something I recently thought of for your characters in general, because your characters seem to have difficulty getting in, having only normal jumps and uncontrollable forward dashes that take a while to complete. However, I recently thought of an easy way to give your characters some good rushdown potential without breaking them by allowing infinites, which would, in turn, make them more fun to play, and thus more widely appealing:

Make duplicate states for the air normals (just copy and paste the states and change the numbers), and code them differently in the .cmd file so that they aren't chainable into each other, but they can be done during the forward dash.

What do you think? Does that sound cool or what?
"I'll change MY direction! Yeah." - Benimaru
Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 07:41:02 am by benimarucollider

Sean Altly

Re: Release - Sabotage (SHADEs of Manhattan 2) by SeanAltly (UPDATED NOV 21st)
#40  November 26, 2010, 08:02:57 am
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Being able to attack during the forward dash was something I got a HUGE amount of complaints on in the first SHADEs game. I know you said to make them not chainable, which wouldn't be as bas as it was before, but I'm not sure if people would dig it. I have them able to do it during the back dash, which I just call an "Offensive Retreat." I'll see how it works though. I know the AI loved to abuse it in the first SHADEs version where they were able to attack during the forward dash.

If anyone else is reading this, what do you think of the idea?
Son, the last thing you'll realize you need is what you've already got.
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