I once again seek your counseling. This time I want to know your opinion on one of Kyo's moves. 212 Shiki: Kototuki YouAs you might know this move pretty much sucked back at KOF 99. It was never used again. But as my Kyo is like a "complete Kyo" this move is included. However, I want to tune this move to the point it becomes useful For you to know, this move originally has only one major advantage - it is invulnerable to low attacks while he's in the air and some time after he lands. Thus, I may suggest several options (or all of them together Joke):1) Autoguard on one frame before he jumps forwards (5 game-ticks), and 2 frames before his first attack (2 game-ticks);2) See his arm while he's in the air? That arm could negate normal projectiles OR Kyo could avoid normal projectiles;3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.This character isn't supposed to be cheap. But he isn't supposed to have useless moves. 212 Shiki: Kototuki You in its strong version is pretty much useless in original. I position my Kyo as sub-boss character.
Elix said, July 22, 2007, 11:43:37 pmAs you might know this move pretty much sucked back at KOF 99. It was never used again. However, I want to tune this move to the point it becomes useful Didn't suck IMO, and it basically just received a different animation in the next games (several other tweaks as well yeah, but the basics were kept). It's nice that you're using, it's actually one of his coolest specials IMO.Btw, planning to somehow use any of his other hcb+k moves?Quote1) Autoguard on one frame before he jumps forwards (5 game-ticks), and 2 frames before his first attack (2 game-ticks);Both options are either too early or too late into the move to be useful/fair IMO. For the dash version you posted, I mean, the short range version could have it.Quote2) See his arm while he's in the air? That arm could negate normal projectiles OR Kyo could avoid normal projectiles;No. Isn't it enough that it can jump over floor projectiles?Quote3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.Sounds good.
P.o.t.S. said, July 23, 2007, 02:58:32 amDidn't suck IMO, and it basically just received a different animation in the next games (several other tweaks as well yeah, but the basics were kept). Which move do you mean? hcb + K ( which is called 427 Shiki: Hikigane and is a completely different move) from KOF 2000-2002 or hcb+K from 96-98 (which has the same name but a completely different move too)? Anyway, I agree with you that this special looks very cool. P.o.t.S. said, July 23, 2007, 02:58:32 amBtw, planning to somehow use any of his other hcb+k moves?Well, yes. Actually, the move above is HCF + Strong Punch in my Kyo. As for commands with kick I am not sure whether it will dissapoint you or make you glad, but he has a lot. And here's the list:1) 75 Shiki: Kai - qcf + KHas two version. Weak version knocks down only after second hit and has less juggle ability. His main juggle combo starter. Well, you know it, you love it 2) 427 Shiki: Hikigane - qcb + Weak KickSends opponent flying in the air. Immune to low attacks for some time. SCancelable. Used in chain combo qcf + Weak Punch, qcf + WP, qcb + WK (slower version of hikigane will come out. You cannot land the first hit normally, you'll have to juggle your opponent for it to land).427 Shiki: Hikigane - qcb + Strong KickInvincible to high attacks at the beginning. This move has variations. If you hold strong kick button the whole time before the attack comes out, this move will hit 2 times with a base of 200 damage. However only the second attack will cause hard knockdown. It you do no hold SK button Kyo will hit only once but this hit causes hard knockdown. This move has Counter Wire properties. Used in this chain combo with altered properties:3) 212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + WKA reversal move. It can reverse high normal and special attacks. The move followed by it is a grab and explode, which is SCancelable into Orochinagi (used MI2 as reference for that).212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + SKStrong version of this move is its classical version. During run and attack Kyo is invincible to low attacks (that attack very low, like Kyo's own low light kick). Kyo says: "Makka ni moero!", which means: "Burn in deep red (flames)!". Explode is SCancelable into Orochinagi.4) Nata Otoshi Geri - hcf + WK, qcf + WK/SK, qcf + WK/SKOne of the moves that Kyo has learned under Ken's coaching and one of Ken's own chain moves. First attack of the chain hits two times (one with his knee and another with his leg straightened out). Second attack causes knockdown, hits opponent in the air and is SCancelabe. Third attack causes hard knockdown and smashes opponent against the ground. Osoto Mawashi Geri - hcf + SK, qcf + WK/SK, qcf + WK/SKAnother move taught by Ken. The first attack causes hard knock down, can be followed up with a series of air kicks. Inspired by Hwoarang from Tekken Well, this move is only under development. Because the first move is my sprite edit and it looks bad This is almost as long as I can get. I would appreciate any help with sprite editing!5) 707 Shiki: R.E.D. Kick - rdp (reverse dragon punch - b, d, db) + WKHard knockdown on the opponent.And his SP version:Kyo also has Kuchuu R.E.D. kick, an aerial version from KOF XI. Aerial R.E.D. kick has longer recovery time.6) 101 Shiki: Oboro Guruma - dp + WKThis one is a visiting card move of classic Kyo. This move causes hard knockdown.The sprites you see are Kaddet's spritework. This guy made sprite edits for Sander71113's NeoKyo. I contacted Sander and asked his permission to use his sprites but he said that I should ask Kaddet himself. I still cannot contact him (e-mailed Orochi Herman also and didn't get an answer). All help contacting Kaddet will be greatly appreciated. Aside this, this and the following moves are completely done.101 Shiki: Oboro Guruma - dp + SKNo comments. Spectacular triple kick attack in the air.;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well, that's about to end his specials with kick button. Await the description for other moves next time.P.o.t.S. said, July 23, 2007, 02:58:32 amQuote3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.Sounds good.Hmm. Good to know that you think so.P.S. When this character is released he'll be a free-source. Except for stuff which wasn't made by me and you'll have to ask permission on it yourself. The list of such stuff is rather small, mind you.
Elix said, July 23, 2007, 04:51:56 amWhat move do you mean? hcb + K ( which is called 427 Shiki: Hikigane and i completely different move) from KOF 2000-2002 or hcb+K from 96-98 (which has the same name but a completely different move to me too)?The later one, not the classic.Quote3) 212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + WKhttp://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT1.gifA reversal move. It can reverse high normal and special attacks. The followed move is grab and explode, which is SCancelable into Orochinagi (used MI2 as reference for that).212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + SKhttp://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT2.gifStrong version of this move is its classical version. During run and attack he is invincible to low pokes (kicks mostly). Kyo says: "Makka ni moero!", which means "Burn in deep red (flames)!". Explode is SCancelable into Orochinagi.Not sure about turning the weak one into a reversal, his movelist is so huge already that adding such extra functions to existing moves could just confuse the player, making it hard to choose what to use when.QuoteHmm. Good to know that you think so.Oh, I just thought of something that could work as well: causing Guard Break.Another suggestion, how about cancelling Orochi Nagi's charging animation into a taunt like in MI2? That was cool and doesn't need sprite edits.Edit: Crap, this topic is making me so wanting to resume Kasumi... , just need to finish a certain other loli first.
P.o.t.S. said, July 23, 2007, 05:30:43 amNot sure about turning the weak one into a reversal, his movelist is so huge already that adding such extra functions to existing moves could just confuse the player, making it hard to choose what to use when.Can be true, but think about this: Serious Kyo is a new character And what should you do with a new character first? Right, study it. Learn how to play him. I never promised this Kyo will be a direct copy of one Kyo. Believe me, I've been playing my own Kyo for DAYS and I may say that there's nothing confusing in Koto Tsuki You reversal. And what's the use of just another KTY with the only difference that Kyo starts running 3 frames earlier and runs for less distance? Besides, the reversal is not cheap. The reversal frames last for 12 ticks (starting at 5th tick, so light punch will defeat the move if started at the same time), with 24 ticks of recovery. Everything's calculated and looks beautiful QuoteOh, I just thought of something that could work as well: causing Guard Break.Great idea!!! Will do.QuoteAnother suggestion, how about cancelling Orochi Nagi's charging animation into a taunt like in MI2? That was cool and doesn't need sprite edits.Another great idea Will be done.QuoteEdit: Crap, this topic is making me so wanting to resume Kasumi... , just need to finish a certain other loli first.
Wow, no comment man. I'm simply amazed. Kyo will have all his specials from the previous KOFs? Really? Z-o-m-g.I can't really imagine what combos this guy would be able to pull off once he is complete, imagine the possibilities! BTW, Koto Tsuki You s-cancellable to Orochinagi? Holy what? Are you sure MI is a valid point of reference in this situation? :p Fortunately your Kyo will have XI's scaling. I don't know if Kyo ever had this, but maybe give S.Kyo's Oniyaki some autoguard frames on start-up (reminds me of Kusanagi in 2k3). If he already does, my bad.Maybe you should nerf Shiki Kai a little and remove Aragami's awesome autoguard start-up to make him a bit more balanced. Aragami was way too good in XI, IMO. It didn't feel right.Good luck with the rest, Elix.
Kei Dasshuu said, July 23, 2007, 06:36:42 amI don't know if Kyo ever had this, but maybe give S.Kyo's Oniyaki some autoguard frames on start-up (reminds me of Kusanagi in 2k3). If he already does, my bad.Yeah, he also has Kusanagi's autoguardKei Dasshuu said, July 23, 2007, 06:36:42 amMaybe you should nerf Shiki Kai a littleHow's that? Kei Dasshuu said, July 23, 2007, 06:36:42 amand remove Aragami's awesome autoguard start-up to make him a bit more balanced. Aragami was way too good in XI, IMO. It didn't feel right.no wai XD
Elix said, July 22, 2007, 11:43:37 pm3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.I like this one. Causing guard break is a good idea too. Maybe guard break OR unblockable depending on the time you delay it.
Cybaster said, July 23, 2007, 08:56:00 amElix said, July 22, 2007, 11:43:37 pm3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.I like this one. Causing guard break is a good idea too. Maybe guard break OR unblockable depending on the time you delay it.He is already powerful enough, if not overpowered So I will stick to Guard Break idea. On this occasion, it's decided, thanks to P.o.t.S.
First off, I gotta say this character looks promising.Secondly, I don't think adding guard break would be a good idea... It's a bit cheap and somewhat unbalanced since not all characters have it.Just my two cents though.
Jesuszilla said, July 23, 2007, 10:02:48 amIt's a bit cheap and somewhat unbalanced since not all characters have it.This is a very naive statement. In KOF, not all characters have special throws, like grapplers. Is this a bit cheap for you also? If so, I'm afraid there's even no point in arguing. Not speaking that this is MUGEN and Serious Kyo is tuned up Kyo by definition (read first post). But I think I'll make an accurate Ex Kyo right after Serious Kyo. It will be too easy, I'll just modify his .cns and .cmd and voila.
Special throws have nothing to do with that.I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was stating my opinion on the matter, which I meant no offense by.
QuoteBut I think I'll make an accurate Ex Kyo right after Serious Kyo. It will be too easy, I'll just modify his .cns and .cmd and voila.People could just do that themselves though ... maybe you could make a patch for Serious Kyo where he is EX Kyo with some extra DMs.
Jesuszilla said, July 23, 2007, 10:35:40 amSpecial throws have nothing to do with that.Well, I think the following example will be more consecutive. Imagine I was making Ralf. He has an unguardable as you know. And now apply your sentence: "It's a bit cheap and somewhat unbalanced since not all characters have it". You may keep to your opinion but I cannot consider this an argument Kei Dasshuu said, July 23, 2007, 10:40:42 amPeople could just do that themselves though ... maybe you could make a patch for Serious Kyo where he is EX Kyo with some extra DMs. Leave it to people? ??? What people? Just random people not knowing nothing of Mugen coding? No, I guess I'll make him a seperate character, which will be the exact copy of EX kyo from KOF XI.
It's not cheap because it's a throw. It IS however, if you don't add the correct triggers to it.But i don't really see it related to Guard Crush, which is something that all KOF characters have in their respective game.What he meant was for example, your Kyo fighting a character without the guard crush system. That character is able to break your guard while you are not able to break his, that makes the game unbalanced because the opponent has an unfair advantage.
Elix said, July 23, 2007, 11:01:17 amKei Dasshuu said, July 23, 2007, 10:40:42 amPeople could just do that themselves though ... maybe you could make a patch for Serious Kyo where he is EX Kyo with some extra DMs. Leave it to people? ??? What people? Just random people not knowing nothing of Mugen coding? No, I guess I'll make him a seperate character, which will be the exact copy of EX kyo from KOF XI.Actually I was referring to people of the MUGEN community. I guess it was a bad call though, I apologize.
Kei Dasshuu said, July 23, 2007, 11:05:46 amI guess it was a bad call though, I apologize.You don't need to Vans said, July 23, 2007, 11:03:31 amWhat he meant was for example, your Kyo fighting a character without the guard crush system. That character is able to break your guard while you are not able to break his, that makes the game unbalanced because the opponent has an unfair advantage.That is not what he meant. He clearly told that it would be cheap if my character could break the guard, not otherwise. Anyway... Guys, I know you're friends and always help each other, but please, cope with the fact that this character might not follow your tastes. That's also one of the reasons why I'll make a copy of KOF XI Kyo.
Actually that is what I meant seeing as we were discussing this on MSN.Basically, if you make it so his guard can be broken as well, then that should be fine as it balances things out.
Jesuszilla said, July 23, 2007, 03:36:05 pmBasically, if you make it so his guard can be broken as well, then that should be fine as it balances things out.That's why I said you didn't read my first post. I wrote there that KOF XI guard crush is in use
