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The amount of math you should know to create for mugen (Read 5845 times)

Started by Speedy9199, October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm

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What level of math should you know?

Algebra 1: 12 (38.7%)
Algebra 2: 7 (22.6%)
Trigonometry: 7 (22.6%)
Calculus 1: 1 (3.2%)
Calculus 2 or higher: 4 (12.9%)

Total Members Voted: 31

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Speedy9199

The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#1 October 16, 2014, 06:02:47 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

I just what to get the opinion of people who code for mugen. What is the bare minimum of math a person should know to create for mugen? I know the more math the better but I am talking about only the bare minimum. In my opinion the bare minimum is trigonometry. I have found that this type of math works very well for mugen, because of PI, sin, cos, and tan. On sometimes rare occasions I have found that you might need to know basic calculus about limits, but it doesn't seem fully required to know that type of math. On even rarer or more difficult occasions you might need to know basic physics. I want your opinions.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Little known FACT: If you use the equation, (z)velocity = (((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2)^.5) / time and z = a small decimal number in mugen you can get something that follows something else. Useful for heat seeking missiles, black holes, magnet effects, a projectile aimed for an enemy's head... Seriously, try it! It's awesome!

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#2 October 16, 2014, 06:16:43 pm

[E]
Online

bare minimum is algebra 1, there are other ways to do teh stuff that requires trigonometry; tho I know that calcules 2 has been used in mugen, especially when your port stuff from "complex" games.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#3 October 16, 2014, 06:40:57 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 16, 2014, 06:16:43 pm

bare minimum is algebra 1, there are other ways to do teh stuff that requires trigonometry; tho I know that calcules 2 has been used in mugen, especially when your port stuff from "complex" games.

But there are somethings in math you just can't get around or if you can it wouldn't be as good. For example in trigonometry sin(1X + Y) which creates a wavy line for movement or things like that. Algebra can't really do that unless you can make something move in a way that uses absolute value, which is not the same or as good in most cases.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Saikoro

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#4 October 16, 2014, 06:49:56 pm

Portrait Prodigy EX+

You guys should put in a basic option, like 2+2 is 4, for us knuckleheads like myself. I know basic algebra and common math. Does this mean I'm fucked when I'll ultimately sit with coding??

If so, Kahn Academy will be my best friend.

All of your Mugen Portrait needs may be found HERE.

Unstabler said, January 31, 2013, 04:11:33 pm

I'd like to report two robots on the MFG forums: One is EXShadow. The other is Saikoro.

GarchompMatt said, September 17, 2013, 12:37:33 am

There should be a Saikoro plugin for Photoshop.

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#5 October 16, 2014, 06:51:24 pm

Hey.

Well, I would agree with you that Trigonometry is probably the most useful and should be the bare minimum, but I don't think it is. One could create a character without using any at all. You could replicate the sine curve with VelAdds and the appropriate triggers. Of course the sine curve will be more effective, but it could still be done.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

vgma2

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#6 October 16, 2014, 07:03:48 pm

English fluency I am swear!

What exactly counts as algebra 1 and 2?

Like what Alexei said, I believe a basic knowledge of trigonometry would be greatly helpful for coding, but at the same time, I don't think it's exactly required.

If anything, I think the coder should probably need to have a basic understanding of Kinematics Physics.

Quote

And "Reality" is unveiled.
What did it want . . .
What did it see . . .
What did it hear . . .
What did it think . . .
What did it do . . .

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#7 October 16, 2014, 07:10:24 pm

Hey.

vgma2 said, October 16, 2014, 07:03:48 pm

If anything, I think the coder should probably need to have a basic understanding of Kinematics Physics.

More importantly, a basic understanding of code would be the most helpful. While real code doesn't actually have "States" and whatnot, the triggers in CNS come as close to "if-statements" as they're going to get. "ifelse" is very much like an inline conditional statement. There are other similarities too, especially with variables, as I see a lot of users who don't both to use them because they are either confused or don't want to bother. In leu of the topic though, I guess that's all to be assumed that you've gotten so far and are requiring a certain level of math.

Saikoro said, October 16, 2014, 06:49:56 pm

You guys should put in a basic option, like 2+2 is 4, for us knuckleheads like myself. I know basic algebra and common math. Does this mean I'm fucked when I'll ultimately sit with coding??

If so, Kahn Academy will be my best friend.

Nah, you could definitely do something coding wise. CNS is not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. MUGEN has bugs that annoy you, yes, but in terms of complexity and the necessities for math, you'd do just fine.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Websta

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#8 October 16, 2014, 07:15:12 pm

play more SNK games

You hardly need math to code something in mugen, you'd be surprised at the things you can do with multiplication and division.

My Twitter

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#9 October 16, 2014, 07:34:38 pm

Yes, you could do basic stuff with simple math, but...

Algebra helped me in some situations to elaborate a problem in a structured way. I remember having to bring down a piece of paper to write some equations in order to correctly code the zoom sctrls I have in my pocket style characters.

Physics (Classical Mechanics/Newtonian Physics) is almost a must to calculate velocities, acceleration and stuff. I normally used that when trying to do accurate conversions (when they are not from SF2, mind it

). Calculus (derivates, mostly) is implied here, but you don't really need it... but I used it in some PalFX for Protoman because I knew how the Sin() function worked.

Trigonometry has been really useful for me when dealing with rotation and projectiles. My first character had a misille attack you could control by rotating it and knowing triangles and stuff helps.

vgma2

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#10 October 16, 2014, 07:40:08 pm

English fluency I am swear!

Алексей said, October 16, 2014, 07:10:24 pm

vgma2 said, October 16, 2014, 07:03:48 pm
If anything, I think the coder should probably need to have a basic understanding of Kinematics Physics.
More importantly, a basic understanding of code would be the most helpful. While real code doesn't actually have "States" and whatnot, the triggers in CNS come as close to "if-statements" as they're going to get. "ifelse" is very much like an inline conditional statement. There are other similarities too, especially with variables, as I see a lot of users who don't both to use them because they are either confused or don't want to bother.

I totally see what you mean with triggers being like "if-statements". When I started to learn about "if-statements" in actual coding, I was like, "Huh, this is kinda like Mugen's triggers."
When I think about it, anytime you use a sctrl, you are essentially calling a function with the arguments being the sctrl's parameters. And the sctrl's type would be the function's name.

I can't say how much prior coding knowledge is needed for Mugen, but personally, I went in Mugen's coding with only a basic knowledge of screen coordinates and ended up having learnt most of my early coding knowledge from Mugen.

Quote

And "Reality" is unveiled.
What did it want . . .
What did it see . . .
What did it hear . . .
What did it think . . .
What did it do . . .

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#11 October 16, 2014, 07:48:14 pm

Reading all this stuff makes me want to return to coding right now...

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#12 October 16, 2014, 07:57:20 pm

Hey.

vgma2 said, October 16, 2014, 07:40:08 pm

I totally see what you mean with triggers being like "if-statements". When I started to learn about "if-statements" in actual coding, I was like, "Huh, this is kinda like Mugen's triggers."
When I think about it, anytime you use a sctrl, you are essentially calling a function with the arguments being the sctrl's parameters. And the sctrl's type would be the function's name.

I can't say how much prior coding knowledge is needed for Mugen, but personally, I went in Mugen's coding with only a basic knowledge of screen coordinates and ended up having learnt most of my early coding knowledge from Mugen.

Yeah, you're exactly right.

For me, it's kind of the reverse. I started mugen about 6 or 7 years ago (maybe more) and was awful and didn't know math or programming. Eventually I quit, but after learning some programming and having practical usage, I came back to mugen and the math and programming skills I've acquired really seemed to help out. Even to this day, I'm still learning new things.

Renzo F said, October 16, 2014, 07:48:14 pm

Reading all this stuff makes me want to return to coding right now...

Dooooo it! XD

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#13 October 16, 2014, 08:02:33 pm

[E]
Online

calling mugen script code is kinda offensive, lol.

FastFlash

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#14 October 16, 2014, 08:23:45 pm

Online

I suck at maths and I can code for mugen, I don't think you need much math for MUGEN, especially since coding for an engine is suppose to make things easier

God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off. ~Tyler Durden; Fight Club

Wargame-Kun

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#15 October 16, 2014, 08:49:54 pm

Bark! Bark! Bark!

lol u gonna need math it soon when u messed up something

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#16 October 16, 2014, 08:55:09 pm

Hey.

[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 16, 2014, 08:02:33 pm

calling mugen script code is kinda offensive, lol.

I'd call it a wrapper at best. XD Though, most wrappers are still the same language. Hmm, script it is!

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Lost_Avenger

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#17 October 16, 2014, 09:54:14 pm

Busy, busy, busy

I suck at math. You really only need basic algebra for most things. Ive never even seen a trig book tbh. Im an idiot so if I can do this, anyone can

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http://www.Trinitymugen.net/Hosted/CFJ2/
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thanks again Vans/Jesuszilla!

ink

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#18 October 16, 2014, 11:38:04 pm

inktrebuchet

Luckily there is no secrets in math. You can easily look up anything you would want/need and learn how to do it.

Unless you have no knowledge at all in math I would say you are good to go.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#19 October 16, 2014, 11:57:16 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

A problem of not knowing higher level math is that you can only think of doing things of only what you know. Let me explain, if you only know algebra you would most likely NEVER have to or need to or even think of coding something that requires perfect circle rotation calculations which requires trigonometry. Simply because you do not know anything about it and it would not cross your mind to give your character something like that. If you know how a circle worked then you would be able to code it, giving you more options and abilities to give your character. In other words: A mugen character creator only knowing algebra = a character that has no relation to any circles, and if it does it probably is no where close to perfect.

Also I am aware that there are not many circle calculations in mugen characters but it IS possible using angle draw which I have done before. and by the way it was mostly an example but hopefully you guys get the point.

Also if someone was able to make a calculation like this of what I said, I would like to see.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

タイタニックリバース

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#20 October 17, 2014, 12:09:54 am

"Do you know what does it mean ?"

You need math to make stuff for Mugen? Oh, wow...

Expect nothing, but remeber everything.+ I am tired. Future spot for Doraemon in MvC picture, the second I learn to create it. (Even further: Pepsiman for Mvc picture.) Insert random Doraemon anime .gif. (Also, Pac-Man Delta whaling on a MLP character .gif........) Now, Wipeout....... OTHER STUFF? Needs blue SSB 64 Mario in tornado .gif......... Add Super Mario Fighters 3 sprite here........ Also, now doing KFA stuff...

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#21 October 17, 2014, 12:21:34 am

Speedy9199 said, October 16, 2014, 11:57:16 pm

Also if someone was able to make a calculation like this of what I said, I would like to see.

That was exactly what I meant with my example in my previous post. I used angledraw + some polar to cartesian coordinates convertion to achieve it.

Code:

[state 1010, AngleAdd]
type = Angleadd
trigger1 = (command = "holdZ" || command = "holdC")
value = ifelse(command = "holdZ",3,-3)

[state 1010, VarAngle]
type = varset
trigger1 = command = "holdZ" || command = "holdC"
v = 0
value = var(0) + ifelse(command = "holdZ",3,-3)

[State 1010, AngleDraw]
type = Angledraw
trigger1 = 1
value = var(0)/180

[state 1010, Speed]
type = velset
trigger1 = command = "holdZ" || command = "holdC"
X = cos(var(0)*Pi/180)*3
Y = -sin(var(0)*Pi/180)*3

[State 1010, Smoke]
type = makedust
trigger1 = 1
pos =-26*cos(var(0)*pi/180),26*sin(var(0)*pi/180)
spacing = 2

var(0) stores the angle and I use that angle to calculate X and Y components of the helper's veolocity. I use roughly the same technique for placing the smoke on the correct position of the rocket. These are things that are not so easy to understand if you don't know a bit of math.

Jesuszilla

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#22 October 17, 2014, 01:19:38 am

I'm a fuffy.
Online

I'm with [E], bare minimum and most of what you'll use is algebra I. I've used trigonometry a bit, too. I love sine and cosine and you can do cool stuff with them.

http://www.trinitymugen.net
It must be really awful being so ridiculous.
The best way to reach me is through PM at TM, IRC, or Skype. Capcom expert, feel free to ask for MUGEN help.

Legendary DeMoNk@I

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#23 October 17, 2014, 03:48:22 am

The Visionary

Saikoro said, October 16, 2014, 06:49:56 pm

You guys should put in a basic option, like 2+2 is 4, for us knuckleheads like myself. I know basic algebra and common math. Does this mean I'm fucked when I'll ultimately sit with coding??

If so, Kahn Academy will be my best friend.

タイタニックリバース said, October 17, 2014, 12:09:54 am

You need math to make stuff for Mugen? Oh, wow...

nah nothing that serious fellas. I mean it does help to be a bit of an Ace at math for faster results with the codes when it gets advanced and you are using a LOT of variables n such but for me it was just playing the matching game. Adding this properly with that. etc etc. Just basic math knowledge when its needed. Now, If you cant count or add or subtract then uhhh...yeah youre screwed LOL

https://sites.google.com/site/demonkaimugen/

Kyoudou Senna

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#24 October 17, 2014, 03:54:17 am

All I see is petals falling... like drops of blood

タイタニックリバース said, October 17, 2014, 12:09:54 am

You need math to make stuff for Mugen? Oh, wow...

You need math for pretty much everything.

PotS said:

That they don't just restrict themselves to my style.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

The Alchemist's sound workshop. Newage Mugen

Jesuszilla

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#25 October 17, 2014, 04:59:15 am

I'm a fuffy.
Online

Computing is based on mathematics.

http://www.trinitymugen.net
It must be really awful being so ridiculous.
The best way to reach me is through PM at TM, IRC, or Skype. Capcom expert, feel free to ask for MUGEN help.

Vans

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#26 October 17, 2014, 06:27:59 am

The Legend Will Never Die

For having a good time, Algebra to beginner's college Algebra.

More advanced system/movement coding is better done and understood if the coder has knowledge of Calculus I/II/III and more specialized Sets/Logic subjects (mostly for recursion).

Anyone with very good knowledge of vector Calculus can code any type of movement efficiently.

Twitter: @vans1belmont
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ELECTR0

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#27 October 17, 2014, 09:43:39 am

Ha hA Haaaaaa.....

Math can be overridden by good Ol' trial and error. Math just makes the process quicker. The end result will still be the same for your idea regardless of the method. If your idea was $h!t, then your result will be lackluster regardless of how you got there. So I vote that math is not needed and beneficial for speed only.

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Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 10:03:41 am by ELECTR0

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#28 October 17, 2014, 05:36:15 pm

Hey.

ELECTR0 said, October 17, 2014, 09:43:39 am

Math can be overridden by good Ol' trial and error. Math just makes the process quicker. The end result will still be the same for your idea regardless of the method. If your idea was $h!t, then your result will be lackluster regardless of how you got there. So I vote that math is not needed and beneficial for speed only.

Yes, but the topic assumes that math IS needed. What's being questioned is the degree of how much is needed. Trial and error can get you places of course, but you still need to have some sort of grounding in basic math to really do anything. Luckily, most people do so there shouldn't be any problem.

Also, sometimes math formulas can actually be your bottleneck depending on how you used them. That or you could just be stuck on a math formula and that time alone could be your bottleneck.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#29 October 17, 2014, 05:52:04 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

From using Algebra I have personally found that the distance formula ((X2-X1)^2 + (Y2-Y1)^2).5 is what could be one of the greatest formulas evar. At times it just seems to work like magic. This allows any type of movement to follow something no matter where it is.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#30 October 17, 2014, 05:58:05 pm

[E]
Online

@jesuszilla: @vans:
you could say that knowing physics is also a requisite to make somethign of quality ,but recent findings on capcom games negate that statement.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#31 October 17, 2014, 06:20:42 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 17, 2014, 05:58:05 pm

@jesuszilla: @vans:
you could say that knowing physics is also a requisite to make somethign of quality ,but recent findings on capcom games negate that statement.

About physics, most colleges in America(not sure about Japan) require anyone going into computer science to take one or two physics classes or for some strange reason chemistry(lol). So not all computer science people know a lot about physics. The company would have to hire a person that graduated in physics to help do the gravity parts. But the thing is, physics (at least in America) is one of if not THE hardest majors to complete. It is hard to find someone like that. After all those people are basically going to school to be a rocket scientist. lol. Also it seems impossible with computer technology today to get A+ like physics for anything computer wise.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#32 October 17, 2014, 06:42:52 pm

[E]
Online

college and physics is cute, physics I and II are highschool stuff, those are more than enough for mugen "programming" (but so are algebra and calculus so I had to bring physics up).

Jesuszilla

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#33 October 18, 2014, 12:08:30 am

I'm a fuffy.
Online

UT has one of the top CS programs in America and we weren't required to take physics courses. We ARE required to take upper-division math courses, but we get to choose what we take (I personally chose matrix calculations).

Taking more science courses like chemistry is only if you go for a BS; I went for a BA because it's more fun.

[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 17, 2014, 05:58:05 pm

@jesuszilla: @vans:
you could say that knowing physics is also a requisite to make somethign of quality ,but recent findings on capcom games negate that statement.

Pretty much all Capcom stuff is VelSets and VelAdds; I don't believe I've ever seen VelMul used even once. The most complex thing I've seen in 2D Capcom is probably Kyosuke's projectile, but I haven't looked much into Warzard and that could have some interesting things.

http://www.trinitymugen.net
It must be really awful being so ridiculous.
The best way to reach me is through PM at TM, IRC, or Skype. Capcom expert, feel free to ask for MUGEN help.

Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 12:13:20 am by Jesuszilla

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#34 October 18, 2014, 01:05:28 am

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

Jesuszilla said, October 18, 2014, 12:08:30 am

UT has one of the top CS programs in America and we weren't required to take physics courses. We ARE required to take upper-division math courses, but we get to choose what we take (I personally chose matrix calculations).

Physics is strongly tied into math but there are some things math alone cannot answer. I brought up having to know physics sometimes because I recently came across something like this in mugen:

You fire a projectile from a cannon (in real life or even with mugen's artificial gravity) at any angle besides straight up (90 degrees). The cannon ball will of course come down because of gravity. When it comes down it WILL come down in the form of a parabola. A 100% PERFECT parabola, well at least half a parabola. AKA the little "arch" that forms. This happens to pretty much EVERY SINGLE object if it is launched somehow. To recreate this on a computer all you have to do is use some form of X^2. But the biggest question is, WHERE THE FUCK does this parabola come from in the first place? This parabola seems to come from NOWHERE and it is always just "there." I can understand it does this because of a force pushing down on it vertically (gravity). But it doesn't really explain why it is so "perfect" and why it is always just "there."

This kind of stuff is over looked because we are so used to seeing it in real life. Knowing math you can recreate this an a computer, but you will recreate it without "truly" knowing it.

I have talked to computer science friends who have taken up to calculus 3 and applied their knowledge of math to computers and NONE of them can answer this question because they have not taken high level physics classes.

My point: Sometimes you just GOT to know physics for things like this. However if my question is unanswerable at least you have to know how it works.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#35 October 18, 2014, 04:05:15 am

What do you mean by "where does this parabola comes from"? That makes no sense like the rest of the post. It looks more like a philosophical question.

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#36 October 18, 2014, 05:43:06 am

[E]
Online

that's simple acceleration/gravity; you can get the formula by simple interpolation or euler/fourier series if you want to be more accurate; acceleration works most of the time and it's physics 1 and it is high school stuff, not necessary to take it in college.

Vans

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#37 October 18, 2014, 07:31:51 am

The Legend Will Never Die

[MFG]maximilianjenus said, October 17, 2014, 05:58:05 pm

@jesuszilla: @vans:
you could say that knowing physics is also a requisite to make somethign of quality ,but recent findings on capcom games negate that statement.

or does it :3

Twitter: @vans1belmont
１．１　ＡＺＲＡＥＬ　＃ＧＤＬＫ
amazon, pls

Bea

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#38 October 18, 2014, 11:12:13 am

A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence
Online

You don't need to know Mathematics to "code" on Mugen (calling that shit code hurts so much...

)
But hey, you should go and learn it. Mathematics is a thing of beauty, and vector math is sooo, sooo beautiful it brings tears to my eyes just to think about it.

To quote Lt. Frank Drebin: "Cheer up, Ed. This is not goodbye. It's just I won't ever see you again."

All your MFG bandwidth is belong to me.

タイタニックリバース

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#39 October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am

"Do you know what does it mean ?"

But, it's hard...

Bea

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#40 October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am

A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence
Online

What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

To quote Lt. Frank Drebin: "Cheer up, Ed. This is not goodbye. It's just I won't ever see you again."

All your MFG bandwidth is belong to me.

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#41 October 26, 2014, 06:32:53 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

I always hated math. I would have dropped it when i was 12 if it had been an option (it wasn't). Since leaving college, if i had not been involved in mugen i would NEVER have touched trigonometry at all. I used pythagoras once, and once only. I have never yet used quadratic equations, they've been 100% useless and we spent months on the fuckers.

Math in school is fine if it gets practical applications. It didn't. Learn this shit by rote, it will never be useful in your life.

Even though a decent amount of mugen contains algebra the way i was taught it was pretty much bullshit and mugen's methodology for it has been far more understandable to me. (yes i had shit math teachers)

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#42 October 27, 2014, 06:03:07 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

Cyanide said, October 26, 2014, 06:32:53 am

I always hated math. I would have dropped it when i was 12 if it had been an option (it wasn't). Since leaving college, if i had not been involved in mugen i would NEVER have touched trigonometry at all. I used pythagoras once, and once only. I have never yet used quadratic equations, they've been 100% useless and we spent months on the fuckers.

Math in school is fine if it gets practical applications. It didn't. Learn this shit by rote, it will never be useful in your life.

Even though a decent amount of mugen contains algebra the way i was taught it was pretty much bullshit and mugen's methodology for it has been far more understandable to me. (yes i had shit math teachers)

Careful Cyanide, even though a lot of the math seems completely useless, sometimes you have to know that stuff. For example, the imaginary number i. When people first learn about this it makes their head explode. How can a number be imaginary, how can it even exsist and why do I even have to know? From my mugen coding experience, YES, you do have to know about it.

I was using the distance formula for a velocity: ((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2)^.5 and every once and a while a debug error would happen saying there was something wrong with the exponent. I found out the times I was getting the error, I was actually getting i, a negative square root! Computers hate imaginary numbers and by learning imaginary numbers I knew how to "kill" it by turning what was in the square root to a positive number using absolute value. In math the ONLY way to stop this problem is to use this solution, so you have to know things like this sometimes.

BTW- Yes, imaginary numbers and "i" DO exsist.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#43 October 27, 2014, 06:54:35 pm

Your post just strengthens his point. You applied math to MUGEN and that's exactly what he was saying...

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#44 October 27, 2014, 08:11:31 pm

[E]
Online

I find it funny at how a lot of people complains about needing to be teached how to apply math in real life when most of math's themes are shown as practical examples in school (at least until college).

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#45 October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

Maybe in YOUR schools, they sure as fuck weren't in mine. You know what would have been useful? Compound interest. Working out the dividends from shares. Explaining our PAYE tax system would have been mathematically useful as well even if the math isn't complex.

You know what wasn't useful? Quadratic equations, and for that matter, reverse quadratic equations. They couldn't even supply a real world situation for these. Nor could they do so for algebra. Trig they managed it. Mostly though you can get through life with plus, minus, divide and multiply.

Like i say, if it was not for mugen i would never have used some of the more complicated stuff from college.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Jesuszilla

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#46 October 28, 2014, 08:04:20 am

I'm a fuffy.
Online

Yeah, "practical" examples stopped pretty much in middle school for me.

http://www.trinitymugen.net
It must be really awful being so ridiculous.
The best way to reach me is through PM at TM, IRC, or Skype. Capcom expert, feel free to ask for MUGEN help.

-Whiplash-

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#47 October 28, 2014, 08:57:00 am

Prince of Latis

Cyanide said, October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

Maybe in YOUR schools, they sure as fuck weren't in mine. You know what would have been useful? Compound interest. Working out the dividends from shares. Explaining our PAYE tax system would have been mathematically useful as well even if the math isn't complex.

In grade twelve I was taught compound interest actually. It was also covered in my calculus course for some reason, in fact, I'd say about 75% of my calculus course was covered in Math 12 as well. it was annoying doing the same stuff twice in a row.

Honestly, basic algebra is all that's really needed, unless you're doing something that arcs or moves in a circle, then Trigonometry would be necessary.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#48 October 28, 2014, 10:05:26 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

Cyanide said, October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

You know what wasn't useful? Quadratic equations, and for that matter, reverse quadratic equations. They couldn't even supply a real world situation for these. Nor could they do so for algebra. Trig they managed it. Mostly though you can get through life with plus, minus, divide and multiply.

About the quadratic, they "have to" teach it because of stuff like this, I'm sure you are aware of. (X+2)^2 or (X+2)(X+2). Which equals X^2 + 4x + 4 which equals something in the middle. When doing long calculations with different equations all tied into each other (even in mugen I have found) you will most likely run into something like this (a set of values multiplied by another set). You will know when you run into this problem because you will code something that has a problem, and when you go and fix the problem another thing previously working correctly will not work correctly. You will come to the conclusion that your values have to be "something in the middle" to satisfy both conditions. So in a way something like going from this X^2 + 4x + 4 to this (X+2)(X+2) is happening when in math you learn that sometimes you need to simply "guess" numbers to get (X+2)^2. Using the quadratic you can fuck guessing and sometimes the variables in the polynomial can get so complex (x does not have to be an integer) that you have no choice but to use quadratic and even THAT might not be enough....

What I said is from my coding experience. The situation I described might not be exactly whats going on BUT looking at my coding there is a strong feeling behind the coding something like foiling and unfoiling is going on.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Cybaster

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#49 October 29, 2014, 08:44:59 am

Limited time to use Infinite power !

It also depends what you mean by "real life applications".
If your life consists in buying oranges and apples and wanting to know the price, then yeah, additions and multiplications is enough.

If you want to make nice shapes for cars, you need NURBS.
If you want to understand snow flakes, you need fractals.
If you want to know how this missile always reaches its target, you need optimization.

For Mugen stuff, you need ... well ... trigonometry is a plus, but just the basic "+ - * /" is usually enough.

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#50 October 29, 2014, 08:49:52 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

I mean they couldn't give us any. There is no point in saying "Here is a quadratic equation, this is how you do them, now do 100 of them" Not a single real world application was provided. Not even an example of the industry you might want the damn things in. Nothing. Utterly useless. This in a class i could not DROP until i turned 17. Yes, i am a bit jaded. Maybe other people had awesome math classes. I did not, they sucked. Badly.

At least in physics when i learnt about torque (something else i haven't used) you got an actual example of what it did and could in fact apply it to what you were doing. This was one of the few weird mathematical things i picked up first try.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Legendary DeMoNk@I

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#51 November 01, 2014, 02:39:44 am

The Visionary

my brain hurts seeing all that math lol

https://sites.google.com/site/demonkaimugen/

DKDC

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#52 November 01, 2014, 02:59:04 am

The reason your math teachers don't give you practical examples of what fields such and such formula or mathematical concept can be used is that... they don't know themselves. They're bad and all they can do is teach you the formula as it is written in the book. I've had high school and college math teachers who came from a different field and/or taught as a part time from something else (like being a researcher), they knew their shit.
Of course, the "crazier" real life examples (like how to power a rocket to escape Earth's gravity or whatever) would actually be taught in physics class, but then, actually, the point is that you're expected to know the basic math and then the physics class teaches you where it's applicable. Similarly, calculating tax and whatnot would be in economics class, not in math class, but it would rely on methods you're supposed to know... from math class. That you've learned by the book without a real life example. That's what the most basic form of math is, you just learn the formulas without any specifics, and then you discover later on which field they apply to when you try to learn about said field.

If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 03:02:44 am by DKDC

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#53 November 01, 2014, 03:45:42 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

That makes sense but really did not help during the learning process.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#54 November 11, 2014, 06:11:38 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am

But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am

What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

I wish I saw this post before. What kind of talk is that!? It is perfectly ok to say math is hard and be a "wimp" at it because it IS HARD. Even if he read all the math books in the world there are TONS of things in math that are just fucking impossible or take a really long time. Computers were invented to help speed up this process but even then there are things that a computer can't do like calculate irrational numbers, square root of 2, pie, e without truncating it or rounding it. And when a computer can't calculate it you know you're FUCKED if you try to do so. Also you have to take into account all the undefined things in which at this point in time it is IMPOSSIBLE to figure out the true answer like 0/0, 0^0 which also make contradictions in math.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#55 November 11, 2014, 06:32:35 pm

Bea's speech was a motivational one. Calm down.
Also, I don't know what the fuck does computer limitations have to do with learning math.

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#56 November 11, 2014, 06:44:39 pm

Hey.

What does any of that have to do with your math usage in mugen? That's what this was all about, no? The fact of the matter is that anyone could get by just fine knowing only the basics of mathematics.

Bea's speech read comically to me as well as motivationally. Bea loves math and has even helped me out with some really advanced stuff in the past. She has every right to speak that way about something she's so passionate about.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Black Hatter

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#57 November 11, 2014, 07:03:45 pm

Official Digital Artist for Capcom vs SNK 3
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タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am

But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am

What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

This. Now get up and learn some math before Bea rips you apart.

Visit my deviantART:

black-hatter-95.deviantart.com/

Bea

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#58 November 11, 2014, 07:07:09 pm

A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence
Online

Speedy9199 said, November 11, 2014, 06:11:38 pm

タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am
But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am
What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

I wish I saw this post before. What kind of talk is that!? It is perfectly ok to say math is hard and be a "wimp" at it because it IS HARD. Even if he read all the math books in the world there are TONS of things in math that are just fucking impossible or take a really long time. Computers were invented to help speed up this process but even then there are things that a computer can't do like calculate irrational numbers, square root of 2, pie, e without truncating it or rounding it. And when a computer can't calculate it you know you're FUCKED if you try to do so. Also you have to take into account all the undefined things in which at this point in time it is IMPOSSIBLE to figure out the true answer like 0/0, 0^0 which also make contradictions in math.

Emphasis mine.
Up to that point, I was complaining that someone was using an excuse that something is hard to not try to further advance in his knowledge/limits/etc. It had nothing to do with mathematics and all to do with pushing oneself further past one's limits.

If one does let something as simple as "it's hard" to get in one's way, one isn't going very far, I am afraid. And I ain't taking any of that. There is nothing more wasteful in this world than untapped potential!

Now, Mathematics is definitely hard, but if you think of it as a tool for your objectives, as it is in Mugen, then it being hard is part of the fun instead of a hindrance.

To quote Lt. Frank Drebin: "Cheer up, Ed. This is not goodbye. It's just I won't ever see you again."

All your MFG bandwidth is belong to me.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#59 November 11, 2014, 07:09:30 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

My previous post was not meant to be too harsh BTW...

Renzo F said, November 11, 2014, 06:32:35 pm

Also, I don't know what the fuck does computer limitations have to do with learning math.

Computer limitations can in fact do something about learning math. When you learn binary or hexadecimal you will learn not all numbers "work" the same way as in normal. In a way you are learning a different math, for example in the language java if you do (.1 + .2 -.3) it will not equal zero but rather 5.7525e-15 or something like that. It does this because in that language the computer cannot calculate the decimal .3 well. So limitations and problems on a computer can teach you things.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Bea

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#60 November 11, 2014, 07:37:46 pm

A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence
Online

Computers are pretty bad when it comes to floating point mathematics.
All the current implementations (float, double, quadruple) tend to sacrifice precision for range, so you can't properly represent exact real numbers in them.
I had some hilarious situations due to that, as C# defaults floating point values as doubles and I had some float values.
Suddenly, 0.01 was different from 0.01, as one was float and the other double. XD
Never again I forgot to cast numbers when comparing them.

It is fascinating and fun stuff.

To quote Lt. Frank Drebin: "Cheer up, Ed. This is not goodbye. It's just I won't ever see you again."

All your MFG bandwidth is belong to me.

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#61 November 11, 2014, 08:07:55 pm

Hey.

Ah typecasting. The joys of programming, lol.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#62 November 11, 2014, 09:13:07 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

Bea said, November 11, 2014, 07:37:46 pm

Computers are pretty bad when it comes to floating point mathematics.
All the current implementations (float, double, quadruple) tend to sacrifice precision for range, so you can't properly represent exact real numbers in them.
I had some hilarious situations due to that, as C# defaults floating point values as doubles and I had some float values.
Suddenly, 0.01 was different from 0.01, as one was float and the other double. XD
Never again I forgot to cast numbers when comparing them.

It is fascinating and fun stuff.

It usually depends on the types of numbers you use. For floats any even number works very well in the decimal 0,2,4,6,8,10, if it's odd it works not as well 1,3,5,7,9, and if it is odd and prime it does wacky things 3,5,7. Also for the number 2, since it is basically the one of a kind number that is even AND prime you might have to work "around" somethings when using it.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 09:18:48 pm by Speedy9199

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#63 November 11, 2014, 10:11:49 pm

Speedy9199 said, November 11, 2014, 07:09:30 pm

Computer limitations can in fact do something about learning math. When you learn binary or hexadecimal you will learn not all numbers "work" the same way as in normal. In a way you are learning a different math, for example in the language java if you do (.1 + .2 -.3) it will not equal zero but rather 5.7525e-15 or something like that. It does this because in that language the computer cannot calculate the decimal .3 well. So limitations and problems on a computer can teach you things.

I know the limitations because I learned it in a class called "Discrete Mathematics" in school. My point is, if you don't have any idea about math, how will you end up noticing limitations in applied computing?

Fun Fact: They also teached me about FSMs in that class. It was a piece of cake because MUGEN already made me understand the subject very well (even if with negative states MUGEN is not a "pure" FSM).

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