The Mugen Fighters Guild - The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#41 October 26, 2014, 06:32:53 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

I always hated math. I would have dropped it when i was 12 if it had been an option (it wasn't). Since leaving college, if i had not been involved in mugen i would NEVER have touched trigonometry at all. I used pythagoras once, and once only. I have never yet used quadratic equations, they've been 100% useless and we spent months on the fuckers.

Math in school is fine if it gets practical applications. It didn't. Learn this shit by rote, it will never be useful in your life.

Even though a decent amount of mugen contains algebra the way i was taught it was pretty much bullshit and mugen's methodology for it has been far more understandable to me. (yes i had shit math teachers)

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#42 October 27, 2014, 06:03:07 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

Cyanide said, October 26, 2014, 06:32:53 am

I always hated math. I would have dropped it when i was 12 if it had been an option (it wasn't). Since leaving college, if i had not been involved in mugen i would NEVER have touched trigonometry at all. I used pythagoras once, and once only. I have never yet used quadratic equations, they've been 100% useless and we spent months on the fuckers.

Math in school is fine if it gets practical applications. It didn't. Learn this shit by rote, it will never be useful in your life.

Even though a decent amount of mugen contains algebra the way i was taught it was pretty much bullshit and mugen's methodology for it has been far more understandable to me. (yes i had shit math teachers)

Careful Cyanide, even though a lot of the math seems completely useless, sometimes you have to know that stuff. For example, the imaginary number i. When people first learn about this it makes their head explode. How can a number be imaginary, how can it even exsist and why do I even have to know? From my mugen coding experience, YES, you do have to know about it.

I was using the distance formula for a velocity: ((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2)^.5 and every once and a while a debug error would happen saying there was something wrong with the exponent. I found out the times I was getting the error, I was actually getting i, a negative square root! Computers hate imaginary numbers and by learning imaginary numbers I knew how to "kill" it by turning what was in the square root to a positive number using absolute value. In math the ONLY way to stop this problem is to use this solution, so you have to know things like this sometimes.

BTW- Yes, imaginary numbers and "i" DO exsist.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Little known FACT: If you use the equation, (z)velocity = (((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2)^.5) / time and z = a small decimal number in mugen you can get something that follows something else. Useful for heat seeking missiles, black holes, magnet effects, a projectile aimed for an enemy's head... Seriously, try it! It's awesome!

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#43 October 27, 2014, 06:54:35 pm

Your post just strengthens his point. You applied math to MUGEN and that's exactly what he was saying...

Bastard Mami

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#44 October 27, 2014, 08:11:31 pm

[E]
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I find it funny at how a lot of people complains about needing to be teached how to apply math in real life when most of math's themes are shown as practical examples in school (at least until college).

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#45 October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

Maybe in YOUR schools, they sure as fuck weren't in mine. You know what would have been useful? Compound interest. Working out the dividends from shares. Explaining our PAYE tax system would have been mathematically useful as well even if the math isn't complex.

You know what wasn't useful? Quadratic equations, and for that matter, reverse quadratic equations. They couldn't even supply a real world situation for these. Nor could they do so for algebra. Trig they managed it. Mostly though you can get through life with plus, minus, divide and multiply.

Like i say, if it was not for mugen i would never have used some of the more complicated stuff from college.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Jesuszilla

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#46 October 28, 2014, 08:04:20 am

I'm a fuffy.
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Yeah, "practical" examples stopped pretty much in middle school for me.

http://www.trinitymugen.net
It must be really awful being so ridiculous.
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Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#47 October 28, 2014, 08:57:00 am

Prince of Latis

Cyanide said, October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

Maybe in YOUR schools, they sure as fuck weren't in mine. You know what would have been useful? Compound interest. Working out the dividends from shares. Explaining our PAYE tax system would have been mathematically useful as well even if the math isn't complex.

In grade twelve I was taught compound interest actually. It was also covered in my calculus course for some reason, in fact, I'd say about 75% of my calculus course was covered in Math 12 as well. it was annoying doing the same stuff twice in a row.

Honestly, basic algebra is all that's really needed, unless you're doing something that arcs or moves in a circle, then Trigonometry would be necessary.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#48 October 28, 2014, 10:05:26 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

Cyanide said, October 28, 2014, 07:19:05 am

You know what wasn't useful? Quadratic equations, and for that matter, reverse quadratic equations. They couldn't even supply a real world situation for these. Nor could they do so for algebra. Trig they managed it. Mostly though you can get through life with plus, minus, divide and multiply.

About the quadratic, they "have to" teach it because of stuff like this, I'm sure you are aware of. (X+2)^2 or (X+2)(X+2). Which equals X^2 + 4x + 4 which equals something in the middle. When doing long calculations with different equations all tied into each other (even in mugen I have found) you will most likely run into something like this (a set of values multiplied by another set). You will know when you run into this problem because you will code something that has a problem, and when you go and fix the problem another thing previously working correctly will not work correctly. You will come to the conclusion that your values have to be "something in the middle" to satisfy both conditions. So in a way something like going from this X^2 + 4x + 4 to this (X+2)(X+2) is happening when in math you learn that sometimes you need to simply "guess" numbers to get (X+2)^2. Using the quadratic you can fuck guessing and sometimes the variables in the polynomial can get so complex (x does not have to be an integer) that you have no choice but to use quadratic and even THAT might not be enough....

What I said is from my coding experience. The situation I described might not be exactly whats going on BUT looking at my coding there is a strong feeling behind the coding something like foiling and unfoiling is going on.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Cybaster

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#49 October 29, 2014, 08:44:59 am

Limited time to use Infinite power !

It also depends what you mean by "real life applications".
If your life consists in buying oranges and apples and wanting to know the price, then yeah, additions and multiplications is enough.

If you want to make nice shapes for cars, you need NURBS.
If you want to understand snow flakes, you need fractals.
If you want to know how this missile always reaches its target, you need optimization.

For Mugen stuff, you need ... well ... trigonometry is a plus, but just the basic "+ - * /" is usually enough.

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#50 October 29, 2014, 08:49:52 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

I mean they couldn't give us any. There is no point in saying "Here is a quadratic equation, this is how you do them, now do 100 of them" Not a single real world application was provided. Not even an example of the industry you might want the damn things in. Nothing. Utterly useless. This in a class i could not DROP until i turned 17. Yes, i am a bit jaded. Maybe other people had awesome math classes. I did not, they sucked. Badly.

At least in physics when i learnt about torque (something else i haven't used) you got an actual example of what it did and could in fact apply it to what you were doing. This was one of the few weird mathematical things i picked up first try.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Legendary DeMoNk@I

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#51 November 01, 2014, 02:39:44 am

The Visionary

my brain hurts seeing all that math lol

https://sites.google.com/site/demonkaimugen/

DKDC

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#52 November 01, 2014, 02:59:04 am

The reason your math teachers don't give you practical examples of what fields such and such formula or mathematical concept can be used is that... they don't know themselves. They're bad and all they can do is teach you the formula as it is written in the book. I've had high school and college math teachers who came from a different field and/or taught as a part time from something else (like being a researcher), they knew their shit.
Of course, the "crazier" real life examples (like how to power a rocket to escape Earth's gravity or whatever) would actually be taught in physics class, but then, actually, the point is that you're expected to know the basic math and then the physics class teaches you where it's applicable. Similarly, calculating tax and whatnot would be in economics class, not in math class, but it would rely on methods you're supposed to know... from math class. That you've learned by the book without a real life example. That's what the most basic form of math is, you just learn the formulas without any specifics, and then you discover later on which field they apply to when you try to learn about said field.

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Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 03:02:44 am by DKDC

Cyanide

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#53 November 01, 2014, 03:45:42 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

That makes sense but really did not help during the learning process.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#54 November 11, 2014, 06:11:38 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am

But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am

What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

I wish I saw this post before. What kind of talk is that!? It is perfectly ok to say math is hard and be a "wimp" at it because it IS HARD. Even if he read all the math books in the world there are TONS of things in math that are just fucking impossible or take a really long time. Computers were invented to help speed up this process but even then there are things that a computer can't do like calculate irrational numbers, square root of 2, pie, e without truncating it or rounding it. And when a computer can't calculate it you know you're FUCKED if you try to do so. Also you have to take into account all the undefined things in which at this point in time it is IMPOSSIBLE to figure out the true answer like 0/0, 0^0 which also make contradictions in math.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Not Bastard Renzo F

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#55 November 11, 2014, 06:32:35 pm

Bea's speech was a motivational one. Calm down.
Also, I don't know what the fuck does computer limitations have to do with learning math.

Алексей

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#56 November 11, 2014, 06:44:39 pm

Hey.

What does any of that have to do with your math usage in mugen? That's what this was all about, no? The fact of the matter is that anyone could get by just fine knowing only the basics of mathematics.

Bea's speech read comically to me as well as motivationally. Bea loves math and has even helped me out with some really advanced stuff in the past. She has every right to speak that way about something she's so passionate about.

-[Все слова это только слова.]-

Black Hatter

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#57 November 11, 2014, 07:03:45 pm

Official Digital Artist for Capcom vs SNK 3
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タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am

But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am

What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

This. Now get up and learn some math before Bea rips you apart.

Visit my deviantART:

black-hatter-95.deviantart.com/

Bea

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#58 November 11, 2014, 07:07:09 pm

A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence
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Speedy9199 said, November 11, 2014, 06:11:38 pm

タイタニックリバース said, October 18, 2014, 11:19:32 am
But, it's hard...

Bea said, October 18, 2014, 11:29:57 am
What sort of a wimp are you that would let something as plain as "it is hard" to get into your way to achieve greatness?

Your limits are there so you can crush them, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women!
Now get on those Math books before I have to bitch slap you.

I wish I saw this post before. What kind of talk is that!? It is perfectly ok to say math is hard and be a "wimp" at it because it IS HARD. Even if he read all the math books in the world there are TONS of things in math that are just fucking impossible or take a really long time. Computers were invented to help speed up this process but even then there are things that a computer can't do like calculate irrational numbers, square root of 2, pie, e without truncating it or rounding it. And when a computer can't calculate it you know you're FUCKED if you try to do so. Also you have to take into account all the undefined things in which at this point in time it is IMPOSSIBLE to figure out the true answer like 0/0, 0^0 which also make contradictions in math.

Emphasis mine.
Up to that point, I was complaining that someone was using an excuse that something is hard to not try to further advance in his knowledge/limits/etc. It had nothing to do with mathematics and all to do with pushing oneself further past one's limits.

If one does let something as simple as "it's hard" to get in one's way, one isn't going very far, I am afraid. And I ain't taking any of that. There is nothing more wasteful in this world than untapped potential!

Now, Mathematics is definitely hard, but if you think of it as a tool for your objectives, as it is in Mugen, then it being hard is part of the fun instead of a hindrance.

To quote Lt. Frank Drebin: "Cheer up, Ed. This is not goodbye. It's just I won't ever see you again."

All your MFG bandwidth is belong to me.

Speedy9199

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#59 November 11, 2014, 07:09:30 pm

Make her whiter! Make her whiter!

My previous post was not meant to be too harsh BTW...

Renzo F said, November 11, 2014, 06:32:35 pm

Also, I don't know what the fuck does computer limitations have to do with learning math.

Computer limitations can in fact do something about learning math. When you learn binary or hexadecimal you will learn not all numbers "work" the same way as in normal. In a way you are learning a different math, for example in the language java if you do (.1 + .2 -.3) it will not equal zero but rather 5.7525e-15 or something like that. It does this because in that language the computer cannot calculate the decimal .3 well. So limitations and problems on a computer can teach you things.

~~The only Mugen creator on this site without a "gay" purple name.~~

Bea

Re: The amount of math you should know to create for mugen

#60 November 11, 2014, 07:37:46 pm

A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence
Online

Computers are pretty bad when it comes to floating point mathematics.
All the current implementations (float, double, quadruple) tend to sacrifice precision for range, so you can't properly represent exact real numbers in them.
I had some hilarious situations due to that, as C# defaults floating point values as doubles and I had some float values.
Suddenly, 0.01 was different from 0.01, as one was float and the other double. XD
Never again I forgot to cast numbers when comparing them.

It is fascinating and fun stuff.

To quote Lt. Frank Drebin: "Cheer up, Ed. This is not goodbye. It's just I won't ever see you again."

All your MFG bandwidth is belong to me.

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