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The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition (Read 18525 times)

Started by Just No Point, May 03, 2013, 01:31:47 am
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Bizarro Santamorphman

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#21  May 03, 2013, 09:35:51 pm
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Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
On topic, include kfm because it is essentially a part of the documentation. People aren't supposed to learn what makes a good or bad character from it (that's somewhat subjective anyway)
This isn't about what makes a good or bad character, it's basic rules that need to be followed. The inbuilt cornerpush system is totally wrong and should be completely avoided, for example. His dp command is under his palm command; his clsns are completely awful and a horrible example for new people. He doesn't have any proper juggle checking, and tons more. These are all basic things that shouldn't change from character to character.

Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
Not to mention being able to crouch while running is a feature, not a problem. Some people like it that way. If there is a misleading comment in kfm, fix it, but include it.
Nearly every single game that features running also doesn't allow one to crouch while doing so. The only one I can think that does is Last Blade, but that is the exception that proves the rule. So when people want to code runs, it's better that they start off with the no crouch running.

Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
Other than kfm, don't include any characters or other content except one or two debug purpose characters (Training, or whatever other such characters exist with functionality not included in Training.)
By including some more characters in a special version, a new user will get a big head start on coding; if people want a stripped down version there's nothing stopping them from downloading that version.

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
However I think keeping KFM is also a good idea. Otherwise you have to DL both versions to have him.

I assume the list you gave is for variety purposes that have good teaching materials?
Keeping KFM out of there is the whole point!

Also, yes; I tried to include things from popular gameplay styles that are also pretty distinct and also would provide examples on how to code various types of moves.

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
a revamped version of Training (instructions in English, and all different versions in one folder, with different .def's to select each size)
Does this exist already?
No, but it would be trivial to do. I think I already did the def thing for my own version of Training and I can write up a basic how-to guide for it, I think.

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
the Kyo that KoopaKoot is working on for his KOF tutorial
And putting the whole tutorial in with it would be a good idea. After it's all finished.
I was just thinking of a link to it, just to keep the file size down.

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
a Z2 character (SSJ Goku might work best, I think)
What's the purpose of this one?
Z2 characters are popular and people are interested in making them, so might as well include one straight from the... I dunno, womb? No that sounds wrong. And gross.

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
SFIII Necro by Rajaa
I had considered that one too for all the options and template info
And also, just a good template for making SFIII characters.

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
MvC2 Zangief by Kamekaze
Really good Marvel vs Capcom representation?
Yes. That and grappling. MvC is a hugely popular style but with stuff like the EoH template and others, it isn't really implemented that well

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
.E. Honda by PotS
Why this particular character?
A better way of doing charge moves than MUGEN's inbuilt way; a "mashing button" move, and also more throw stuff. Plus it's PotS style! :D

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
Oh, we should throw in a copy of the optional animation standards too!
I need to finish it first! And also I think a link would be better since there's a bunch of gifs for that.

Genghis C.A.N said, May 03, 2013, 08:59:42 pm
I think Honda should be replaced with Geese but that's just me talking.
Geese doesn't have anything needed. The only thing I can think of is projectiles and counters, and those are covered by SSJ Goku and Kyo, respectively.

Roman55

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#22  May 03, 2013, 09:41:36 pm
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Bizarro Santamorphman

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#23  May 03, 2013, 09:43:08 pm
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WHATEVER, MAN >:[

it still doesn't change anything, though.

DW

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#24  May 03, 2013, 10:25:32 pm
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I mostly agree with Orochi Gill on this. For the most part, it seems really grimey to me that this was leaked in the first place. Patience goes a long way. I really don't see what was achieved by leaking this. After all, it was given to those select people in confidence that it wouldn't get leaked. IDK, maybe some people feel betrayed by Elecbyte for their recent inactivity? Even so, does that really justify you leaking something? The only thing I'm getting out of this, is 2 wrongs make it right I suppose... Though, the idea of Elecbyte having done anything wrong in the first place is purley subjective. I'm not particularly against it, but I'm not really for it either. I really just don't see the point in leaking it all honesty. IDK, ignorance is bliss I guess.

The Simplistic Fubini

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#25  May 03, 2013, 10:30:11 pm
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F'ing Jesuszilla. The bastard hasn't posted in one year and yet people still preach his 'crouch while runing is a mugen sin' gospel.

Seravy

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#26  May 03, 2013, 10:49:15 pm
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Quote
Calling them dishonest seems to be pushing it. I'm sure there's plenty of reasons as to why they havent been active. Do remember Elecbyte is a company, not a group of fans developing something for the fun of it (they may be that too but thats beside the point). Its possible that the project was axed due to lack of corporate growth (ie: lack of income). Perhaps they're in the middle of court proceedings regarding the mugen engine and were issued a gag order that prevents them from publicly disclosing progress on the engine. Your guess is as good as mine, but saying that they were intentionally trying to decieve us is pushing it too far. Shit happens, and nobody is exempt from this, not even Elecbyte.

Court? Gag order? Company? Mugen is a hobby project. They never accepted money, and refused any suggestions about accepting donations as far as I remember. Besides if they are a company, that makes it even worse. What kind of company can afford to completely ignore their "customers" for months or years?
And even then, they can still say "Sorry, we have been ordered to not talk about it by the court, so stop asking, we can't answer".

"Deceive" might be pushing it a bit but it is rather obvious that their silence is either intentional for the purpose of making people realize their absence later (which is a passive way of deception), or because they abandoned the project and decided the community isn't even worth enough to say "sorry, we have to stop" to them, which would be way worse than simply misleading us.

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Also, yes; I tried to include things from popular gameplay styles that are also pretty distinct and also would provide examples on how to code various types of moves.
Add a Touhou character that uses official SWR or UNL gameplay, then. There are hundreds of Touhous in Mugen so it's definitely popular enough and it's different from other characters, so it's worth a slot. Card system, custom bar, grazing, just to name a few things that's nice to know how to code.
Are there any characters with a resurrection, or superarmor added yet? Those are often used and hard to code so including some would be useful. Most people mess up superarmor coding or add unnecessary things to them like taking less damage or immunity to T type damage...
A character with a custom defense code would be also useful, as defencemulset is STILL broken so you need to use variables and lifeadds to apply defense properly...
Melty Blood characters are also relatively common in Mugen, although I don't know much about their gameplay, you might want to include one.

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IDK, maybe some people feel betrayed by Elecbyte for their recent inactivity?
Yes, definitely. You don't go around letting people spend tens or hundreds of hours on posting bug reports, suggestions, or testing your alpha then just say nothing and disappear. We did that in hopes of a better Mugen, not to waste our time. This resulted in a loss of our most precious resource, our time. We aren't immortal, every hour we spend on something is an hour we can't spend on anything else. Of course we are betrayed, at least those who were active on Elecbyte's forum...
Not to mention I've been pushing away making Sakuya Izayoi in hopes of certain new features in 1.1 that could let me make her better. Thanks to these false hopes, people didn't get to play with my Sakuya for an extra 2 years and she is one of the most popular Touhous. (I'm going to make her this year, no reason to wait any longer, there won't be new features...)

The point in leaking is this : Mugen 1.1 alpha 4 is the last known existing Mugen version and for all we know it's probably the last one the community gets, ever. It's better than 1.0 Final, so it's beneficial to the community to have it. Sure, we could have waited longer, but the key is this, if Elecbyte never says a word again - which is likely at the moment-, someone eventually has to leak it otherwise it's lost forever. It's been already made and not making it public would just be a loss for everyone and a waste of both the testers efforts and Elecbyte's.

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Nearly every single game that features running also doesn't allow one to crouch while doing so.
Most other people watch tv for 3-4 hours a day, so let's follow them. It's good, most people do it! Not really...
Just because most other game developers don't think about something and mindlessly copy each other doesn't mean you have to, as well...

Duos

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#27  May 03, 2013, 10:54:42 pm
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When people complain about crouching during a run, that's a pretty sure sign that your character is good enough that they can't think of anything else.

DW

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#28  May 03, 2013, 10:57:51 pm
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You aren't the one who leaked it, but you were on the verge of doing so. What you say and your feelings of being "betrayed" still don't justify leaking it in my eyes. That's nice and all that you put in time and effort to try and help Elecbyte build a better MUGEN engine, but, that really means you threatening to leak it was just done out of spite. Mostly proving my "2 wrongs = right" theory. 

Bastard Mami

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#29  May 03, 2013, 11:10:55 pm
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MC2 said, May 03, 2013, 10:54:42 pm
When people complain about crouching during a run, that's a pretty sure sign that your character is good enough that they can't think of anything else.

lol no, when people complain aobut crouching during a run is because you don't know anything about fighting games and they don't even have to bother testing it, it's like complaining about having two hadoukens onscreen.

Seravy

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#30  May 04, 2013, 12:01:26 am
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that really means you threatening to leak it was just done out of spite
Nah. I wanted to leak it so that it doesn't get lost forever in history, never released. We already had a precedent of these guys vanishing for how much, 7 years? 10? Of course I assume they won't move an inch no matter what happens and won't ever release or complete 1.1
It's not hurting Elecbyte in any way whatsoever, if anything, it's better for them this way.
To explain it even more, alpha 3 was already leaked and it had some bugs in it that were fixed in alpha 4. It was also being spread around infected with malware. Keeping the fixed version private with the bugged one already out would have just hurt Elecbyte's not-so-much remaining reputation even more, not to mention the potential malware infections. Alpha 4=Alpha 3-bugs, that's all.

When I posted the "threatening" post, my goal was to change the status quo and make one of these happen :
1.either make Elecbyte show signs of life which would have been probably the best outcome but also the least likely
2.or had the community agreed on the release of it after some time, I could have released it with everyone being happy about it
3.or even by not doing anything, with all the talk about it, I expected someone else to release it instead eventually, solving the problem of alpha 4 never seeing the light of day with Elecbyte being permanently gone and not releasing it.

All 3 were better potential outcomes than the situation of having no Elecbyte and the buggy alpha 3 being already leaked out instead.
Learn from history. People used Winmugen, which was very unstable, a buggy, incomplete leaked version for 10 years. With no action taken, eventually people would have ended up using alpha 3, and in another 10 years we would have had a community based on alpha 3, unless someone released alpha 4.

Of course, I didn't think option 3 will happen this quickly. Perhaps it would have been better after another few months, maybe half a year, but there is a positive side to this. People who want to make 1.1 content can start this much earlier. That means more content for the community.
If I want revenge, I don't do it in such a roundabout way, when the Ragnarok Online server I played did a full wipe, after all the GMs saying "we won't do a wipe ever" for a year, I made a forum signature showing my 33 characters I lost, and 33 grave stones on the other side with the text "before -> after", and posted a really detailed negative review about the server. Not only for revenge, but to save other people from playing there and wasting their time as well.
Sure, I'm angry about Elecbyte but the reputation loss for their inaction is more than enough for what they did.
Bleh, why am I wasting my time on defending myself, I didn't even leak it. Go attack Syn and leave me alone.

For my final words about this topic, consider this :
Having the 1.1 alpha 4 available for everyone is better than only having the 1.1 alpha 3. I hope you don't doubt that. So that means it's a "Right" to use your words. But not because it's the result of 2 "wrongs" but because it's "right" by itself.

DW

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#31  May 04, 2013, 12:30:18 am
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I like how when something is said, most people automatically jump to the assumption that they're being "attacked". I simply stated my opinion on the matter sir. You gave a response, and I responded back. Once again, that's what I'm doing now. I'm not attacking you or Syn in any way, shape, or form. At the end of the day, I really could care less. Though my initial response to this all still stands. No wall of text will sway it. Just like what I say won't sway your thoughts/perspective on it. In fact, in some ways I'm in sync with the reasoning behind releasing it, was so it doesn't get lost forever. Bloody revenge was not my implication. However, saying you felt betrayed by Elecbyte does make one think that for the greater good of MUGEN was not your only intent with proclaiming to leak 1.1. Still, to each his own. Good day sir.

Seravy

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#32  May 04, 2013, 01:17:42 am
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If I had any other intentions, I would have leaked it in November, as it was already clear that Elecbyte is not answering by then. The only reason why I would wait an extra 6 months and even go as far as post an advance notice of my plans is because I cared about Elecbyte and the community despite all my anger...I even avoided working on Mugen stuff for this time period to calm myself down.
Sorry, I tend to get overly defensive sometimes. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid? All those "Stop releasing shit" and "Someone should cut his hand off" posts I got a few years ago didn't exactly help for my mental stability. After such a nice way to welcome new authors, I guess any sane person would have just quit, maybe something is really wrong with me that I'm still continuing.
Let's stop going offtopic, now. I think I explained my reasons properly.

Loona

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#33  May 04, 2013, 02:22:10 am
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This topic is pretty much no longer about stickies and could use a split or two to merge some of the content into the leak controversy, and maybe a new one about 1.1 character bundle proposals and their pros and cons...

But while it's all here, might as well toss in my two cents...

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

This right here - provide the original version and an alternate version, and in the alternate version's code files and/or readme.txt provide the rationale for the differences.

Has someone compiled the list of issues before?

Jmorphman said, May 03, 2013, 07:14:57 pm
Because my list was for things that already exist/will soon exist. Not hypothetical undertakings. If someone wants to do that for KFM, then that's great. :|

If it's something that can be done with code alone and KFM's unchanged SFF (I haven't dealt with SFFs or Clsn-defining software in ages, so I'm less comfortable with that), maybe I can spare some time to take a crack at it.
It would just be very very weird to have a non-Elecbyte original be the tutorial character, and even if a modified one was provided, the original should still be there, might help people see how different two takes on the same character can be.

Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
On topic, include kfm because it is essentially a part of the documentation. People aren't supposed to learn what makes a good or bad character from it (that's somewhat subjective anyway), they read the code to figure out what code not explained anywhere else does -like constants- and that's all what it is for. It doesn't even includes a running state so blame common1.cns for having control while running, not Kfm. Not to mention being able to crouch while running is a feature, not a problem. Some people like it that way. If there is a misleading comment in kfm, fix it, but include it.
Other than kfm, don't include any characters or other content except one or two debug purpose characters (Training, or whatever other such characters exist with functionality not included in Training.)

Basically this, only I prefer the original KFM + modified KFM package (Guild Fu Man? :P ).

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 09:10:54 pm
Well there will be 2 versions. 1 with just KFM the other with some extra stuff like Fighter Factory and a few really well developed characters from different games. A very few.

Don't bring the whole characters from existing games (not to mention that list was way too Capcom-centric...) - give the modified KFM their relevant distinguishing or common-but-not-in KFM features that the original lacks. "PotS-style" KFM with whatever extra features that could be relevant?



Jmorphman said, May 03, 2013, 09:35:51 pm
Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
On topic, include kfm because it is essentially a part of the documentation. People aren't supposed to learn what makes a good or bad character from it (that's somewhat subjective anyway)
This isn't about what makes a good or bad character, it's basic rules that need to be followed. The inbuilt cornerpush system is totally wrong and should be completely avoided, for example. His dp command is under his palm command; his clsns are completely awful and a horrible example for new people. He doesn't have any proper juggle checking, and tons more. These are all basic things that shouldn't change from character to character.

So your list so far is:
* inbuilt corner push system
* crouching when running
* CMD order (ex: DP command should be before palm command; IIRC more complex commands should be on top)
* Clsns (what would be worth changing? many games don't overlap their Clsn1s with their Clsn2s, maybe related to that?)
* improper juggle checking system

What else?
Might as well drop double jumping from the hypothetical alternate KFM, since that's a feature of some games that would be heresy in others.

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Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
Other than kfm, don't include any characters or other content except one or two debug purpose characters (Training, or whatever other such characters exist with functionality not included in Training.)
By including some more characters in a special version, a new user will get a big head start on coding; if people want a stripped down version there's nothing stopping them from downloading that version.

For that it may be preferable to give KFM more features than to toss in several characters with only a few different features - it would always be possible to include a text file with recommendations to look into, and it would take up less space.

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Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
However I think keeping KFM is also a good idea. Otherwise you have to DL both versions to have him.

I assume the list you gave is for variety purposes that have good teaching materials?
Keeping KFM out of there is the whole point!

It's not a very good point, Elecbyte's character should be in Elecbyte's engine - not that it's problems shouldn't be pionted out, but it should be there.

Quote
Also, yes; I tried to include things from popular gameplay styles that are also pretty distinct and also would provide examples on how to code various types of moves.

(...)

Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
a Z2 character (SSJ Goku might work best, I think)
What's the purpose of this one?
Z2 characters are popular and people are interested in making them, so might as well include one straight from the... I dunno, womb? No that sounds wrong. And gross.

I'm yet to mess around with those, but from what I heard from Iced, even if they're meant to work with each other, those characters have pretty distinct systems - it's probably best to link to them as interesting examples of what can be done than to provide them as a starting point, which is the whole point of having KFM in Mugen by default.

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Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
SFIII Necro by Rajaa
I had considered that one too for all the options and template info
And also, just a good template for making SFIII characters.

There's a grand total of 20 3rd Strike characters - even if not all of them have been accurately converted (why would anyone do that when the game's not balanced enough to break away from the Chun-Li/Yun paradigm?...), that's a bit of a narrow view on what can or should be done with Mugen.
Might as well give alternate KFM a parry and maybe a short dash instead of a run.

Quote
Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
MvC2 Zangief by Kamekaze
Really good Marvel vs Capcom representation?
Yes. That and grappling. MvC is a hugely popular style but with stuff like the EoH template and others, it isn't really implemented that well

What's KFM's throw lacking when it comes to teaching grappling?
As for the Mahvel factor, maybe giving KFM a super jump and have it work that way as a follow-up to his uppercuts would be enough as a starting point?

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Just No Point said, May 03, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
.E. Honda by PotS
Why this particular character?
A better way of doing charge moves than MUGEN's inbuilt way; a "mashing button" move, and also more throw stuff. Plus it's PotS style! :D

Use the board from KFM's intro as a projectile with a charge command and the same lesson can be provided.
as for the mash command special... maybe have him use his bow animation repeatedly really fast, if nobody bothers to edit his sprites into his "busy attacking" bit from his intro storyboard?

Just No Point

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#34  May 04, 2013, 02:41:59 am
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Would it be easier to add documentation into Divinewolf's KFM?

I don't see an issue with having 1 version that comes with 12 characters to help aid in developmental purposes.

Regular KFM (updated documentation?)
720 KFM is exactly the same as regular but with hires sprites, right? So he can be replaced with a hi res character from a different series.
I still feel DW's KFM should stay in because it uses the KFM base and really expands on it.
Trainer needs to be in but can go back to being 1 character with documentation on how to change him.

So that would leave 9 spots for diversity purposes.
3 Capcom
3 SNK
3 other?

Not turning down the suggestions made thus far. I'm just wanting to get a consensus on this.
Since it's an option I don't see an issue with making a loaded version. The regular version will still have developer tools, anim standards, etc. It'd be what you "keep it light" people would be asking for :P

Orochi Gill

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#35  May 04, 2013, 03:27:14 am
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Nagai's B^U said, May 03, 2013, 10:30:11 pm
F'ing Jesuszilla. The bastard hasn't posted in one year and yet people still preach his 'crouch while runing is a mugen sin' gospel.

Not funny in the slightest. Even if not intended it really wasn't needed.

Titiln

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#36  May 04, 2013, 03:34:13 am
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i like the idea of having a release with a handful of (generally perceived as) good characters so people can get an idea of the variety and move possibilities that can be done in mugen. modifying kfm to have superjumps and parrying and projectiles sounds convoluted as hell.

Roman55

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#37  May 04, 2013, 03:43:21 am
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I'd rather just have an up-to-date KFM personally.

And I don't mean with all the extra stuff people are mentioning, just an up-to-date version.

Just No Point

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#38  May 04, 2013, 03:46:15 am
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If KFM is updated he'd be in both versions anyway. So you could get the version that only had the updated KFM.

Titiln

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#39  May 04, 2013, 04:02:11 am
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remove kfm due to name association

Tamez

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#40  May 04, 2013, 04:02:21 am
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Seravy said, May 03, 2013, 10:49:15 pm
It's better than 1.0 Final

Better can be a vague term. 
Before I decide to download this thing and start creating stuff for it, I'd just like to ask something. 

Is anything lost or broken by using 1.1a4 over 1.0 Final? 
Or is 1.1a4 just 1.0 Final with the extra new features? 
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