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The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition (Read 18529 times)

Started by Just No Point, May 03, 2013, 01:31:47 am
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Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#41  May 04, 2013, 04:05:39 am
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Is anything lost or broken by using 1.1a4 over 1.0 Final? 
Or is 1.1a4 just 1.0 Final with the extra new features? 

I think its just 1.0 with the extra features. I've yet to find anything wrong with it.

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#42  May 04, 2013, 04:15:31 am
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Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#43  May 04, 2013, 04:15:50 am
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@Loona

KFM with a bunch of added distinctive features wouldn't be a suitable tutorial for those trying to create those kind of characters, it will not only become complicated and silly, but it still wouldn't teach ALL of the specifics of that particular gameplay style.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#44  May 04, 2013, 04:17:09 am
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If KFM is updated he'd be in both versions anyway. So you could get the version that only had the updated KFM.
What I'm trying to say is that having two versions (one with KFM and another with a bunch of characters + KFM) seems kinda pointless to me. I dunno, just doesn't click right for some reason.
Is anything lost or broken by using 1.1a4 over 1.0 Final? 
Or is 1.1a4 just 1.0 Final with the extra new features? 
Well some screenpacks have bugs (like what I mention here) and some stages don't seem to work.

DW

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#45  May 04, 2013, 04:26:41 am
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Would it be easier to add documentation into Divinewolf's KFM?

I don't see an issue with having 1 version that comes with 12 characters to help aid in developmental purposes.

Regular KFM (updated documentation?)
720 KFM is exactly the same as regular but with hires sprites, right? So he can be replaced with a hi res character from a different series.
I still feel DW's KFM should stay in because it uses the KFM base and really expands on it.
Trainer needs to be in but can go back to being 1 character with documentation on how to change him.

So that would leave 9 spots for diversity purposes.
3 Capcom
3 SNK
3 other?

Not turning down the suggestions made thus far. I'm just wanting to get a consensus on this.
Since it's an option I don't see an issue with making a loaded version. The regular version will still have developer tools, anim standards, etc. It'd be what you "keep it light" people would be asking for :P

I suppose that'd be easier(so long as I'm not the one who has to make the documentation :P). There's notes throughout his coding just like the original KFM, if that helps/counts. 720 is just KFM hires'd, so yeah, that could be replaced. I agree with Seravy with adding a few Touhou chars. Not particularly fond of them myself, but a lot of people are. It would be good to help people make balanced Touhou chars putting in some of Seravy and/or RicePigeon's  chars. Rajaa's Necro of course is a good choice as was already mentioned. Along with a MvC Kame and/or Xegotchx(sp?) char. Above any other style, MvC style is one that's done poorly on a consistent basis. That'd definitely be in a step in the right direction with promoting solid MvC chars.

Some KoF of course. Koopakoot, Vans, Jin, those would be my suggestions for that department. I'm agreement with everything that was suggested to include with it. For stages, maybe one made by either Chrono_Strife or Amanojaku. I haven't seen any other stages made with the features of 1.1 made by any other creators. People could look over the stage to help them implement the new features.
Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:31:20 am by DivineWolf
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#46  May 04, 2013, 04:28:46 am
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@Loona

KFM with a bunch of added distinctive features wouldn't be a suitable tutorial for those trying to create those kind of characters, it will not only become complicated and silly, but it still wouldn't teach ALL of the specifics of that particular gameplay style.

Teaching about the specifics of a given gameplay style is outside the scope of Mugen in general (where ideally you're creating something new, even if you're taking into account lessons from existing games), it's only relevant to (re)create or emulate something that already exists, and separate guides can go into detail about that sort of thing.
Just Defend and parrying aren't supposed to coexist at once,for example, but even if both were to be coded in somewhere, maybe they could be in separate code files (ex.: garou_system.cns  and sf3_system.cns) that wouldn't necessarily be both referenced in the .DEF file by default, and changing that could be a comment tweak away.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#47  May 04, 2013, 04:37:41 am
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Do not include anything but KFM (updated or otherwise) if you do that you are specifically telling people "this is what you must do and it's what mugen is about" It's not about accurately representing anything. It's an engine you can do what you want with. KFM may not set any standards at all, he's there to show you how the engine works, not how to emulate something else.

If you include other stuff you are essentially saying "This is the be all and end all of all characters, you must do it like this" Despite the fact things can always be done differently or even improved.

No. Fuck that. People should be free to do what the fuck they like. We have teaching tools, that's what they're for.


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Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#48  May 04, 2013, 04:44:16 am
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The KFM idea would probably work best with grooves. But that would take an insane amount of work that I doubt anyone will actually want to put into it. Having characters from specific games to aid in emulating that style is wise because it is so wide spread and it helps see various fighting mechanics too. Not to mention we can link specific documentations with certain characters like KOF creation tutorials being used with a KOF character.

It's a lot easier to understand a certain game's mechanics using a character actually from that game instead of throwing it all in KFM.

I suppose that'd be easier(so long as I'm not the one who has to make the documentation :P).

Nah, I was looking at Loona since he was volunteering XD

Yeah, a touhou, a Blaze Blue, and some other character would be good for the final 3. For Capcom a POTS, SF3, and MVC
SNK would just be KOF? Or KOF, Mark of the Wolf, Samurai Shodown?

And yeah maybe a stage or 2

@  Cyanide: I don't see why it'd make people think that at all? People would still be free to do with what they like. Maybe the 3rd character should be Omega Tom Hanks or some other character from The None
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#49  May 04, 2013, 04:54:49 am
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F'ing Jesuszilla. The bastard hasn't posted in one year and yet people still preach his 'crouch while runing is a mugen sin' gospel.
It's not a sin, it's just something that should be avoided in most cases. It's not that big of a deal, but little things add up. Given a choice between including characters that cannot crouch while running and ones that can, I would lean on the former, as it's easy to implement the latter but not obvious how to implement the former. Anyway, it's definitely on the minor side of things wrong with KFM.

Add a Touhou character that uses official SWR or UNL gameplay, then.
Good idea, what would be a good choice? Maybe one with resurrection or super armor or the other things you mentioned? It'd be nice to tick those boxes off if we're adding more characters.

Melty Blood characters are also relatively common in Mugen, although I don't know much about their gameplay, you might want to include one.
Sounds good, anyone have any suggestions?

If it's something that can be done with code alone and KFM's unchanged SFF (I haven't dealt with SFFs or Clsn-defining software in ages, so I'm less comfortable with that), maybe I can spare some time to take a crack at it.
It would just be very very weird to have a non-Elecbyte original be the tutorial character, and even if a modified one was provided, the original should still be there, might help people see how different two takes on the same character can be.
Sounds good, but I think it'd be better to just have a fixed version of KFM, call him KFMkai or something, and if someone is really interested in the differences, they can always download the vanilla version of 1.1; from a coding perspective there's nothing to gain from including the original KFM along with a fixed version.

Don't bring the whole characters from existing games (not to mention that list was way too Capcom-centric...) - give the modified KFM their relevant distinguishing or common-but-not-in KFM features that the original lacks. "PotS-style" KFM with whatever extra features that could be relevant?
Who cares if it's Capcom-centric? It's what's popular, and therefore what's most likely to be what people want to work on. It will never be definitive, but we can provide a general sense of what's going on, I think. And adding these things to KFM is not the best solution; it's far better to have different characters with different movesets and different sprite styles. Having a bunch of versions of KFM would defeat the point of including a variety of characters, and would be a huge undertaking that really isn't needed.

What else?
Might as well drop double jumping from the hypothetical alternate KFM, since that's a feature of some games that would be heresy in others.
I dunno what else, but I'm sure we can get a group list or something going on. But KFM doesn't need his double jump removed, it's part of him. He shouldn't be radically different, just refined.

It's not a very good point, Elecbyte's character should be in Elecbyte's engine - not that it's problems shouldn't be pionted out, but it should be there.
I was/am operating under the assumption that the only version of KFM that could be included is Elecbyte's original; if there is a refined version, then it'd be good to include him.

There's a grand total of 20 3rd Strike characters - even if not all of them have been accurately converted (why would anyone do that when the game's not balanced enough to break away from the Chun-Li/Yun paradigm?...), that's a bit of a narrow view on what can or should be done with Mugen.
Rajaa is making a very extensive SFIII template, and I forsee an explosion of SFIII characters using the template. But it's probably the one thing on the list that I'd be most comfortable in dropping.

What's KFM's throw lacking when it comes to teaching grappling?
Special and super throws. Or an anti-air throw, or a dash throw. It's good to have an extensive variety of throws, I feel.

I still feel DW's KFM should stay in because it uses the KFM base and really expands on it.
I think it'd be better to have an updated KFM, and not include another "PotS style" character when a more distinctive one is already in.

So that would leave 9 spots for diversity purposes.
3 Capcom
3 SNK
3 other?
I don't think a quota is needed; just go with what's popular and well documented. Oh and I guess things that the author agreed to include in this. We need to get permission, can't forget about that.

Do not include anything but KFM (updated or otherwise) if you do that you are specifically telling people "this is what you must do and it's what mugen is about" It's not about accurately representing anything. It's an engine you can do what you want with. KFM may not set any standards at all, he's there to show you how the engine works, not how to emulate something else.
The exact same argument could be made just by including KFM, IMO. "This is the only character that matters, it is what you must follow" or something like that. These extra characters would simply be there to help people get a leg up. And we can always include something in a readme that encourages people to seek other things out.

Yeah, a touhou, a Blaze Blue, and some other character would be good for the final 3. For Capcom a POTS, SF3, and MVC
SNK would just be KOF? Or KOF, Mark of the Wolf, Samurai Shodown?
I really think we should try hard to keep the roster as small as possible. Like, I love Garou but it really doesn't belong here, I think.
Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 05:04:33 am by Jmorphman
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#50  May 04, 2013, 04:59:58 am
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How about no characters because adding chars would be hypocritical on the "compilations are frowned upon" stance.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#51  May 04, 2013, 05:02:50 am
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How about no characters because adding chars would be hypocritical on the "compilations are frowned upon" stance.
Do you want to contribute to this topic or are you gonna sit on the sidelines and hurl bitchy insults towards everyone?
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#52  May 04, 2013, 05:04:40 am
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No. Fuck that. I can't believe nobody else sees how wrong it is to do this.

KFM is a template character for new people, he's been designed that way. None of the stuff you want to shove in is any sort of template for anyone learning. KFM is the way he is because it's simple to learn from. You pick mugen up from him and tutorials. All you'll get from the other stuff is sprite swapping which teaches nothing.

Doing this is utter bollocks. It's elecbytes engine, not yours. You pack it as they packed it. It's bad enough giving them the middle finger without deciding how people should use it as well by adding things in that are subjective rather than objective.


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Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#53  May 04, 2013, 05:05:25 am
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How am I "throwing bitchy insults"? You guys have said that compilations are frowned upon and you dump them, but you're planning on not only hosting a leaked 1.1 alpha (which you banned someone for months ago for spamming a leaked alpha), and including some characters aside from KFM with it.

I don't see how I'm "throwing bitchy insults" when I'm just pointing out how many things you've (staff as a whole) done in the past that this goes against. :-\
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#54  May 04, 2013, 05:05:50 am
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Agh you people drive me bonkers :P

How about we compromise. Still come up with a list of good characters as references as we have been. Try to update KFM as mentioned. Add the other developmental stuff aside from characters. And have an html file that links to several informative boards and characters that we've been mentioning.

Worst case scenario there is that the links to said characters ever get removed. But this way it can solve both desires fairly well down the middle.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#55  May 04, 2013, 05:07:26 am
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I have to agree with people that are saying that Elecbyte are disappearing again. In all honesty they do this crap a lot. They should just release the source code for both WinMugen and 1.0 and be done with it. These constant disappearing acts for several months are ridiculous! I've known projects that are just as sophisticated with only one person doing EVERYTHING that can produce far more updates, in a far shorter amount of time. I'm starting to think Elecbyte don't even care about their engine at this point. They probably just came back because enough people found their real names/email addresses and harassed them enough for them to say "screw it let's come back and give them something so they will leave us the hell alone."

There's enough people in the mugen community alone that could easily take over the reigns of this project and actually continually maintain Mugen. Or at the very least they could put up a public repository so anyone can make improvements to the engine. In fact that's what Elecbyte should do. Put the source code up on a public repo and just let the fans finish their engine.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#56  May 04, 2013, 05:09:40 am
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Come up with no characters. Provide links to every forum in existence, good and bad.

You're not doing this for popularity. All that should be provided is the engine and accompanying files. If you want a links document as well that's reasonable, but it's gotta be for everyone. Not a select few.


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Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#57  May 04, 2013, 05:18:06 am
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If you're going to add ANY characters to the 1.1 archive, just have KFM with the fixes in the Greatest Hits of Feedback thread. KFM is a flawed character, so just fix up the bugs and explain the fixes in the files ala everything else in his character, and there you go.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#58  May 04, 2013, 05:20:55 am
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Obviously can't put EVERY forum in existence. But what are the big forums right now? Guild, Trinity, IMT, MFFA, Mugen BR, um... there are still japanese ones but I don't know what they are, other language big forums?

If you're going to add ANY characters to the 1.1 archive, just have KFM with the fixes in the Greatest Hits of Feedback thread. KFM is a flawed character, so just fix up the bugs and explain the fixes in the files ala everything else in his character, and there you go.

Yeah I think it's been agreed that fixed versions are okay as long as they don't seem to push creation into a certain direction. But that won't happen cause we'll all wait on someone else to make it!
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#59  May 04, 2013, 05:24:17 am
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far as i see it, the basic tool kit is what would be needed by anyone starting
mugen pack 1.1
>base template character KFM
> base template character kfm 720

>stage, training
>stage, temple

>tools
fighter factory etc


dont think links are needed. for characters or forums if they managed to find the link they can google search whatever they want.
Just recreate the normal release a mugen engine would have.
Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#60  May 04, 2013, 05:35:05 am
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far as i see it, the basic tool kit is what would be needed by anyone starting
mugen pack 1.1
>base template character KFM
> base template character kfm 720

>stage, training
>stage, temple

>tools
fighter factory etc


dont think links are needed. for characters or forums if they managed to find the link they can google search whatever they want.
Just recreate the normal release a mugen engine would have.

I Agree!!!