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The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition (Read 18527 times)

Started by Just No Point, May 03, 2013, 01:31:47 am
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Loona

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#61  May 04, 2013, 07:30:15 am
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Just No Point said, May 04, 2013, 04:44:16 am
The KFM idea would probably work best with grooves. But that would take an insane amount of work that I doubt anyone will actually want to put into it.

This is madness - way too much complexity for what's supposed to be a starter level teaching tool/example.

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Maybe the 3rd character should be Omega Tom Hanks or some other character from The None

And this is beyond madness and Sparta! Are you getting enough sleep?...


Jmorphman said, May 04, 2013, 04:54:49 am
Loona said, May 04, 2013, 02:22:10 am
If it's something that can be done with code alone and KFM's unchanged SFF (I haven't dealt with SFFs or Clsn-defining software in ages, so I'm less comfortable with that), maybe I can spare some time to take a crack at it.
It would just be very very weird to have a non-Elecbyte original be the tutorial character, and even if a modified one was provided, the original should still be there, might help people see how different two takes on the same character can be.
Sounds good, but I think it'd be better to just have a fixed version of KFM, call him KFMkai or something, and if someone is really interested in the differences, they can always download the vanilla version of 1.1; from a coding perspective there's nothing to gain from including the original KFM along with a fixed version.

Comparison is a powerful tool, and so is not having to download smoething else to comlpete the doanload you already made.

When in doubt, go for the untoched Elecbyte output, it would be unreasonable to do otherwise.

A possible compromise to address KFM's issues is adding a text file listing some of the issues, presenting their modification/correction as an exercise for the neophyte coder.

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Loona said, May 04, 2013, 02:22:10 am
Don't bring the whole characters from existing games (not to mention that list was way too Capcom-centric...) - give the modified KFM their relevant distinguishing or common-but-not-in KFM features that the original lacks. "PotS-style" KFM with whatever extra features that could be relevant?
Who cares if it's Capcom-centric? It's what's popular, and therefore what's most likely to be what people want to work on. It will never be definitive, but we can provide a general sense of what's going on, I think. And adding these things to KFM is not the best solution; it's far better to have different characters with different movesets and different sprite styles. Having a bunch of versions of KFM would defeat the point of including a variety of characters, and would be a huge undertaking that really isn't needed.

If it's popular it's more likely to already be available in commercial or Mugen form, so someone may be less driven to try and implement it, unless looking for popularity or something, which tends to be attractive for some temperamental people I'd bet the staff here is tired of dealing with...
Part of the charm of Mugen is putting some different ideas to the test, why enforce convention further?

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Loona said, May 04, 2013, 02:22:10 am
What else?
Might as well drop double jumping from the hypothetical alternate KFM, since that's a feature of some games that would be heresy in others.
I dunno what else, but I'm sure we can get a group list or something going on. But KFM doesn't need his double jump removed, it's part of him. He shouldn't be radically different, just refined.

System-wise he exists in a vacuum, since he has no default opponents other than himself, so something like a double jump could eitehr be something a hypothetical Suave Dude would also have, or something unique to him, it's up in the air, pretty much.
If an alternate take were to gain something he didn't have before while having to coexist with the old version, it just seems reasonable to exchange one feature for another between versions.

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Loona said, May 04, 2013, 02:22:10 am
What's KFM's throw lacking when it comes to teaching grappling?
Special and super throws. Or an anti-air throw, or a dash throw. It's good to have an extensive variety of throws, I feel.

Functionality speaking there's no major difference since by default KFM can't break out of throws IIRC, which tends to be the difference between normal and special moves, and theclassic differences between special and super throws is the use of power bar, damage and animation lenght, it's not a huge distinction code-wise since KFM already has EXs and supers to show how to consume power bar.

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Loona said, May 04, 2013, 02:22:10 am
So that would leave 9 spots for diversity purposes.
3 Capcom
3 SNK
3 other?
I don't think a quota is needed; just go with what's popular and well documented. Oh and I guess things that the author agreed to include in this. We need to get permission, can't forget about that.

Help, I'm being misquoted! :(
JNP said that, not I  >:(

I'd rather not enforce conventions here, since there are already plenty of characters out there covering those gameplay types and they're easy to find, no need to bundle them with the engine and associate Elecbyte's work directly with a barely tolerated legal situation.

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Cyanide said, May 04, 2013, 04:37:41 am
Do not include anything but KFM (updated or otherwise) if you do that you are specifically telling people "this is what you must do and it's what mugen is about" It's not about accurately representing anything. It's an engine you can do what you want with. KFM may not set any standards at all, he's there to show you how the engine works, not how to emulate something else.
The exact same argument could be made just by including KFM, IMO. "This is the only character that matters, it is what you must follow" or something like that. These extra characters would simply be there to help people get a leg up. And we can always include something in a readme that encourages people to seek other things out.

KFM seems designed to look and feel relatively boring, which can help spark the impulse of doing something more interesting using him as a stepping stone - the diversity we've seen througout the years might be in part derived from that. People are more likely to make <gameX>-style KFMs than KFM-styled takes on licensed characters.


Jango Hakamichi said, May 04, 2013, 05:18:06 am
If you're going to add ANY characters to the 1.1 archive, just have KFM with the fixes in the Greatest Hits of Feedback thread. KFM is a flawed character, so just fix up the bugs and explain the fixes in the files ala everything else in his character, and there you go.

Pretty much this, as a list of experimentation suggestions to help get comfortable with the code - with Mugen's relative complexity, surely there must be some simple improvements to KFM that can work as a beginner's "Hello world" in mugen code.

Seravy

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#62  May 04, 2013, 12:35:28 pm
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Good idea, what would be a good choice? Maybe one with resurrection or super armor or the other things you mentioned? It'd be nice to tick those boxes off if we're adding more characters.
Now that's a hard question. Every original accurate Touhou has Japanese comments in it and are made by Japanese authors. I can't guarantee coding quality either, can't really read through 50000 lines of code per character to find the best. I do know Kurogane's chars had issues. I'm not too familiar with the source games and the accurate characters, I always aimed at creating a more fun custom version. If I really have to recommend one, I'd say go with Mikage's characters if you aim for accuracy.
If source game accuracy isn't a requirement, I would recommend my Reimu however.
Reimu has
-Resurrection move
-Variables carrying over between matches, and games
-Plenty of uninterruptable spellcard moves that use local superarmor coding
-Custom defense code
-Code that alters the amount of power gained from all sources globally (both one that reduces power gain and one that increases it)
-Grazing
-Healing attack that heals everyone on screen
-Teleport attacks
-I can add comments into it explaining things
-As always on my characters, she has difficulty scaled AI, and the AI can recognize moves from other characters I made, like not attacking into a reflect move and such
-Changestate loop for creating a line of projectiles

However, since this will be for 1.1, shouldn't the characters be upgraded to include zoom support?

Regardless of the suggestions, I'm still on the opinion of not including characters, Cyanide and Iced are right about it. Tools like VSelect and FF3 should be included and that's it. There is a Wiki on Elecbyte's site if people want to learn about how to code stuff. Maybe we could just fill it up with content to include things not yet explained? I already made a superarmor, and AI section, and a few more, not sure which ones. Or, if people don't trust Elecbyte's site, we can just make a new wiki.

Alex Sinigaglia

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#63  May 04, 2013, 02:12:03 pm
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So, as I can see, you want to make a compilation of characters using the 1.1 leaked alpha... And then they're frowned from the community? I can't understand that. Please explain.
(Just saw right now that it was what Orochi Gill said, strange.)

Ah yes, you said that they could be development tools and codes that yadda yadda.
Seriously?
You can search for the char when you want in the net, and they can be development tools and sources. You don't need to put it in a compilation.

And why didn't you do that for 1.0 too then? Because it was released by Elecbyte?

I also agree with Cyanide, keep only KFM and the usual stages that come with the 1.0 (Training Room, Mountainside view etc.).
Do it officially. (officially as in: like the official release)
Without added stuff.
∞
Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 03:11:50 pm by Alex S.

DW

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#64  May 04, 2013, 04:37:11 pm
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I think a lot of your are reading into this way too seriously. I highly doubt JNP's intent is to force ways on aspiring MUGEN content contributors. He just wanted to add a bit extra to the package. Hardly a compilation in any sense. Essentially a head start of sorts. Though whatever, for what it's worth, I get what you were trying to do JNP. That's fine with just including the stuff Iced suggested. Also, I can see where some are coming from, with just keeping the package as a "official" release, as to not sort of disrespect Elecbyte.

However, the 1.1 alpha doesn't come with any new stages with it's new features implemented. I feel one stage with those new features implemented would be nice. Along with possibly still adding Training to the package. Training is a great assist with char creation and testing. It could be considered a tool itself. Which, it is really. You can't actually fight against it or anything. It's sole purpose is for training and gathering data on a char.

Roman55

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#65  May 04, 2013, 05:22:55 pm
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Seravy said, May 04, 2013, 12:35:28 pm
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Good idea, what would be a good choice? Maybe one with resurrection or super armor or the other things you mentioned? It'd be nice to tick those boxes off if we're adding more characters.
*snip*
If we absolutely need to have someone with a resurrection move then why not GM's Gill? Which is the most obvious think you can think of for that.

That aside, yeah I'm gonna third what Iced said. We don't need to release a supposed "developers pack" with a bunch of characters. Keep it with the original KFM, the stuff that was already with him in 1.0, FF3, and any other useful tools, and there you go.

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There is a Wiki on Elecbyte's site if people want to learn about how to code stuff. Maybe we could just fill it up with content to include things not yet explained? I already made a superarmor, and AI section, and a few more, not sure which ones. Or, if people don't trust Elecbyte's site, we can just make a new wiki.
We just have to add things that aren't explained. No need to make a new wiki (It's pretty darned useful, I don't see how people wouldn't trust it).
Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 07:00:32 pm by Roman55

Just No Point

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#66  May 04, 2013, 06:27:06 pm
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At work on lunch so can't type a lot. Just wanted to reiterate what I said earlier that there won't be any characters besides training. The other characters may be linked to in an HTML file but that's it.

Bad News GBK

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#67  May 04, 2013, 06:33:05 pm
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Uploading/Spreading  Mugen 1.1 with copyrighted content like characters or stages = bad idea.

A package like Mugen 1.1 with a document about software like FF and where it can be found should be enough + KFM  or another original character which is not from a existing video game and a not copyrighted stage should be enough.
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Seravy

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#68  May 04, 2013, 06:46:26 pm
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We just have to add things that aren't explained. No need to make a new wiki (It's pretty darned useful, I don't see how people wouldn't trust it).
By "trust" I meant that there is no guarantee that Elecbyte.com will remain online if there is no one remaining behind it...once it goes down, the wiki is lost. So maybe it's safer to host it on a site where the owners are not vanished.
For the time being, I saved my contributions to the wiki to my computer, just in case...
Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 06:50:23 pm by Seravy

Roman55

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#69  May 04, 2013, 06:56:08 pm
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Oh I see what you mean.

Maybe make a Wikispaces version? (that is if something like that was to pass)
Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 07:00:08 pm by Roman55

Titiln

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#70  May 04, 2013, 06:57:40 pm
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Bad News GBK

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#71  May 04, 2013, 07:01:26 pm
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Because copyright crap. To 90% nobody will ever fucking care but it can't hurt to prevent any attention by the wrong guys.
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Titiln

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#72  May 04, 2013, 07:05:43 pm
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would be valid if this was the start of mugen but we're well over 10 years into it and it has been proven they mostly don't give a shit

Bastard Mami

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#73  May 04, 2013, 07:09:44 pm
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I understand that in a page like elecbyte, but mugenguild is fucking full of said  copyrighted material so that would not hurt. now giving my two cents, you should hve two distros of mugen 1.1, one that is a bare minimum with only two stages, one with zoom, anotehr wihtout, preferably the elecbyte stuff that and the kungfuman character, developments tools in this one are open to discussion. the other should be a character packs, in a similar vein to testp's united pack, ideally it should be varied, testp's had one capcom character (guile), one snk character (bluemary), one doujin character (shinobu) and one character that did not originate from a prper fighter (xia houdu), the new pack should follow a similar phylosophy; it also had a few stages, teh idea was that the characters would show how to code a varied amount of things, back then mugen did not even have any docs and united was good enough to get creators starte, while still sohwing normal players what could be done in mugen.

Titiln

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#74  May 04, 2013, 07:25:52 pm
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oh right, the testp pack. putting a handful of characters and stages as a separate download like TESTP For The New Generation is the best way to go about it

Rajaa

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#75  May 05, 2013, 12:54:15 am
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No need to arbitrarily choose a bunch of characters and pack them into a download pack. Just follow how Mugen 1.0 was released by Elecbyte. I don't see the need for anything else. There are various resources that can point people to characters/stages that they might want to use to help them learn something new.

Elecbyte is silly for releasing the Alpha to people with whom they aren't really familiar, but what's done can't be changed and I don't necessarily care about it being leaked -- not my problem. Nobody even asked me.

Wargame-Kun

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#76  May 05, 2013, 08:16:23 am
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after trying 1.1a4 it feels weird if the stage get zoomed (since seravy shared stages he modified in 1.1) i can do a infinites in various characters plus bugs even a well balanced character

Seravy

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#77  May 05, 2013, 08:53:09 am
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Wargame-Kun said, May 05, 2013, 08:16:23 am
after trying 1.1a4 it feels weird if the stage get zoomed (since seravy shared stages he modified in 1.1) i can do a infinites in various characters plus bugs even a well balanced character
Characters need to be updated to work properly on zooming stages. No one has updated their characters for it yet.

Ryūku Tsukuyomi

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#78  May 05, 2013, 09:24:49 am
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Seravy said, May 05, 2013, 08:53:09 am
Wargame-Kun said, May 05, 2013, 08:16:23 am
after trying 1.1a4 it feels weird if the stage get zoomed (since seravy shared stages he modified in 1.1) i can do a infinites in various characters plus bugs even a well balanced character
Characters need to be updated to work properly on zooming stages. No one has updated their characters for it yet.

Chrono Strife did with 16 having a 1.1 mugen only version.  :gonkgoi:

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Wargame-Kun

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#79  May 05, 2013, 10:16:46 am
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man i wish someone some patches to make all the chars work in 1.1 a4

GaziraAgain

Re: The MUGEN 1.1 talk feedback edition
#80  May 05, 2013, 01:43:21 pm
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Well the alpha version 4 is very good! We are able to put in 32-bit graphics, zoom, play at 60fps, but what you do not see the portraits of chars? I made a screenpack and lifebars in 32 bits each occupying 200mb, then I can only see 3 or 4 portraits and others? You can play with them but not displayed! So we played to that version loading chars 2 by 2? This already happened in the alpha version 3 and has not been corrected, there is a way they are, or so is the thing. It is a great pity for the thing promised but this is a very serious fault!
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