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Things that help chars compete in Mugen (Read 6110 times)

Started by PotS, December 21, 2008, 07:17:06 pm
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PotS

Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#1  December 21, 2008, 07:17:06 pm
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In your opinion, what are some system gimmicks that can help a random char against all sorts of Mugen opponents (and why), without overpowering it?

For instance, a char with some kind of old school gameplay (KFM, SF2) will have trouble against pretty much half of all other chars, while on the other hand a Touhou character can dominate everything.  What are the things one can do to place a character on the middle term and help it deal with a bit of everything?


Note: Obviously only applies to original/custom characters, convertions are better off with the original system.
Also this may be of interest to someone who's passing by looking for tips.
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Rajaa

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#2  December 21, 2008, 07:26:08 pm
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yeah, i recently decided that the hit boxes on get hits for standing and crouching should remain the same as standing a crouching respectively; small bodies could easily miss getting hit in a combo, also makes it much easier to copy and paste the clsn :P. I think that that's a fair gimmick that would balance things out. Said gimmick only helps you get beat up more efficiently though.


I think that all characters should have some sort of Dodge, be it roll or just sidestep. Parrying is a good option also even though i implement parrying i hardly use it on purpose. Also some sort of counter move(Alpha counter) would benefit most, to break out of menacing combos, while not killing the opponent; so i thinks it's pretty fair.

Aerial and ground recovery is a must; the juggles on some characters are greater than others, hopefully those juggle hppy characters allow for Air recovery to prevent 20 hit juggles.  :P

PotS

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#3  December 21, 2008, 07:27:53 pm
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Rajaa said, December 21, 2008, 07:26:08 pm
Also some sort of counter move(Alpha counter) would benefit most, to break out of menacing combos, while not killing the opponent; so i thinks it's pretty fair.
Yeah, I was editing my first post to say this, it's quite possible a combo friendly char can just lock yours in the corner indefinitely, so having this one really helps (should have a cost though, of course).
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Cornholio

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#4  December 21, 2008, 07:36:24 pm
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I find that your custom characters can hold it's own against anything. For instance GM's SF3 characters when compared to mugen works are way overpowered but I have no trouble stomping a mudhole in Ibuki, Ken or Gouki.... but then again a majority of guys out there typecast your characters as "cvs style" rather than original.

Why are you looking for opinions btw..? Just keep doing what you're doing, brother. Don't tell me you're planning to work on some HD remix carbon copies.... I'd rather you use the sprites and keep your gameplay intact. BTW we could really use a POTS Boxer.  :sugoi:
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Hello guys.  I have touched children.

PotS

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#5  December 21, 2008, 07:40:50 pm
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Just that looking at opinions (both valid and invalid) helps organizing my own view of things.  That and I'm curious, but the actual topic isn't about me or my chars so no matter.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#6  December 21, 2008, 07:43:52 pm
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LOL you really don't have to run the discreet route after the subject is out in the open but whatever. If it makes you happy I'll say yay POTS has lost his passion.
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Rajaa

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#7  December 21, 2008, 07:48:26 pm
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lol; topics always try to become about P.o.t.S  :-*

P.o.t.S. said, December 21, 2008, 07:27:53 pm
Yeah, I was editing my first post to say this, it's quite possible a combo friendly char can just lock yours in the corner indefinitely, so having this one really helps (should have a cost though, of course).

1 stock should do well for that.

    I also don't think that a character should have more than 3 power bars, 3 is like a standard, having 5 is of course going to be in MvC or some other game that implements it but it's seems too much when another character is safe because they always have that extra curve in removing about .25% of your health with an vulnerable start up to add to that. I guess that could also go into power management. Some characters having powercharge and some not, so i guess it balances out somewhat?

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#8  December 21, 2008, 07:51:15 pm
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Parrying, roll and/or evade are really nice options which should be in any character. They allow to come out of more or less any situation.

Power charge also helps, while still being a conventional and regular system move.

Ohsky

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#9  December 21, 2008, 10:34:00 pm
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for me the middle way it´s the appropiate, mid fast attacks and mid dmg values. In the end you fill your roster with the chars you like so thinking about finding balance here in mugen is only just a dream made by a dreamer indeed.

i agree on the roll thing because the possibility of getting cornered and bashed there is huge in mugen.

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#10  December 21, 2008, 10:51:52 pm
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TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#11  December 21, 2008, 10:58:07 pm
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Grazing would be effective against Touhou characters.

Even though only three of them aren't boss tier...

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c001357

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#12  December 22, 2008, 04:54:29 am
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8-way dash/boost. Mobility makes all the difference.
burst is fine.

P.o.t.S. said, December 21, 2008, 07:17:06 pm
For instance, a char with some kind of old school gameplay (KFM, SF2) will have trouble against pretty much half of all other chars, while on the other hand a Touhou character can dominate everything. 

examples? super street fighter 2 chars can be quite overpowered (champion edition dictator)

ps. parrying is very overrated
Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:04:52 am by c001357

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#13  December 22, 2008, 05:12:09 am
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c001357 said, December 22, 2008, 04:54:29 am
8-way dash/boost. Mobility makes all the difference.
burst is fine.
Yeah, but grazing lets you run through projectiles, you can then punch the opponent in the face.
However Red Arremer will still get you.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#14  December 22, 2008, 05:20:19 am
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grazing should only work against touhou chars.
----------
alpha 2 CCs can narrow the gap between old school and new school chars.
Especially if the former chars have alpha 3 physics.

K.O.D

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#15  December 22, 2008, 05:21:41 am
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If you're a serious fighting game fan, then you shouldn't even have that touhou shit on MUGEN.

also just defend > parry.

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#16  December 22, 2008, 05:39:32 am
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K.O.D said, December 22, 2008, 05:21:41 am
If you're a serious fighting game fan, then you shouldn't even have that touhou shit on MUGEN.

also just defend > parry.

Actually Touhou is one of the most balanced fighting games in the world. The only unfair matches are Sakuya vs Hong Meiling.
Reimu and Hong Meiling are also very fair in MUGEN, I've whooped them easily.
With KFM.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#17  December 22, 2008, 05:47:29 am
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c001357

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#18  December 22, 2008, 05:48:49 am
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Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:59:22 am by c001357

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#19  December 22, 2008, 08:33:14 am
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#20  December 22, 2008, 09:17:31 am
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in my opinion Just defend is bullshit where as with parry there is more skill and risk to it only difference would be that people would be more willing to have a just defend option because its the same as blocking plus minor bonuses.

in terms to the topic the main things that would allow a character to stand up to most would be dodge options and recovery options. Counter is also useful but if paired with power charge becomes quite unfair even if it does use one stock as most creators allow their power charge to fill 3 stocks within a matter of seconds which in terms to CVS is very unbalanced.

Haseo80

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#21  December 22, 2008, 10:16:39 am
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parry makes just defense redundant
hell yeah to parry

on the topic
there is no exact way to make a character competitive against all kinds of enemies
ive seen some chars alpha counter an alpha counter but i guess it just depends on how its done

Jesuszilla

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#22  December 22, 2008, 10:17:03 am
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Just Defense > Parry

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#23  December 22, 2008, 11:16:10 am
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I believe Super Move that have NotHitBy in a shot time is what all char need.
To perform counter when enemy attack.

And be able to cancel him/her attack that make MoveContact to Super Move. (that help alot)

some attack that allow one to attack enemy from far away, or may be projectile.

Parry, Dodge, Roll, PowerCharge, all that also help
also some char can be too powerfull with PowerCharge


but in my opinion if I have a time to do PowerCharge I better off perpar for next attack.
(except it increase power fast or enemy like abyss/DevilGundam that give us sometime when it changing form)


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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#24  December 22, 2008, 11:32:24 am
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#25  December 22, 2008, 12:34:24 pm
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i still dont like just defense
i meant its safer to perform and gives you more energy than parry WHILE restoring some of your life
yeah youre still a bit stunned and stuffz but theroetically you can JD yourself back to full health

K.O.D

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#26  December 22, 2008, 12:40:10 pm
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No, you can't JD yourself to full health.

PotS

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#27  December 22, 2008, 04:42:02 pm
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c001357 said, December 22, 2008, 04:54:29 am
burst is fine.
It's a tricky one, is great against GG/MvC/whatever characters but can I say awful against SF and KOF?

Re: Power Charge
I keep it mostly out of sheer fun, but I suppose it doesn't hurt as long as it has a reasonable charging rate (full meter with my chars takes 5 seconds, an eternity).
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#28  December 22, 2008, 06:08:42 pm
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M:ken said, December 22, 2008, 09:17:31 am
in my opinion Just defend is bullshit where as with parry there is more skill and risk to it only difference would be that people would be more willing to have a just defend option because its the same as blocking plus minor bonuses.

parry is as safe as just defense if you are not dumb.

tetsuo9999

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#29  December 22, 2008, 06:10:46 pm
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#30  December 22, 2008, 06:11:41 pm
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Laxxe23

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#31  December 22, 2008, 06:15:33 pm
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#32  December 22, 2008, 06:20:06 pm
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Yuri Cat said, December 22, 2008, 06:08:42 pm
parry is as safe as just defense if you are not dumb.
"Nó", it still leaves you open for a fraction of a second when you play it safe and guard after a parry attempt. Plus you can low JD pretty much anything, while low Parry eats high attacks.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#33  December 22, 2008, 07:27:30 pm
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Still is not sucha big difference as most people make it look, especially if you are planing an offensive move afterwards.

About stuff that would balance a character form an older game it has to have both a defensive and an offensive option. parry-just defense makes it easy for the defense since most modern chars also have those mechanisms, while overheads,unblockable,dashes or rolls should be enough to round up their offense against easy turtling.

Dr. Mask The 3rd

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#34  December 22, 2008, 08:15:35 pm
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Doesn't parrying restore abit of your health?

K.O.D

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#35  December 22, 2008, 08:16:40 pm
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Nope.

vyn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#36  December 22, 2008, 08:17:22 pm
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a way to break out of endless combos like zero counter or plain guard cancel and a system move with invinsibility like dodge, roll etc should be enough to go against anything

maybe an air recovery since kfm is the base and all, but meh could do without rly

parry or just defend are the current fashion indeed but not rly a standard and unfair against some systems

K.O.D

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#37  December 22, 2008, 08:20:36 pm
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Guard Cancel Roll/Blowback attack is the best system.

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#38  December 22, 2008, 09:59:56 pm
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GC Roll is full of cheese. ;P 1 bar for free combos.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#39  December 22, 2008, 10:25:31 pm
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I think that you can build well-balanced characters simply by ignoring the majority of characters from doujin fighting games (by this I mean Touhou/EFZ/etc). With few exceptions (ie: Blitzkampf), they eschew the elements of 2D fighting that make it fun and instead focus on racking up the highest combos possible.

IMO original characters should have a combo of doing decent damage with having some basic comboability. Also Guard Crush (on your opponents, not you) might be a fun mechanic to toy with especially if the enemy AI was coded to turtle (like Judgespear's "fixes" to Warner's characters).

Jarek Bachanek

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#40  December 22, 2008, 11:27:21 pm
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Cybaster said, December 21, 2008, 07:51:15 pm
Parrying, roll and/or evade are really nice options which should be in any character. They allow to come out of more or less any situation.

Well this doesn't count on DBZ which have teleport stuff. But yeah I would like to see a parry in DBZ character. Before someone start to moan how DBZ is shit, it can be done right if you know how (look at Neocide, Roken, Strife and rest of ZGTeam).
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#41  December 22, 2008, 11:30:03 pm
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i would think fast moves would do wonders to fight with specialy fast projectiles and basics

i really don't know though

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#42  December 23, 2008, 01:04:31 am
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#43  December 23, 2008, 01:08:33 am
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Hehe. God forbid your char from recovering when he's supposed to, mindless accuracy uber alles!
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#44  December 23, 2008, 01:23:18 am
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It's one of those cases in which whether you implement the stuff in p1 or in p2 can completely break a character.

imho, combo ability is not that important since combos are just a way to inflict more damage, and a mroe basic character should inflict more damage overall anyway.

c001357

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#45  December 23, 2008, 03:06:22 am
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Chiba said, December 22, 2008, 10:25:31 pm
I think that you can build well-balanced characters simply by ignoring the majority of characters from doujin fighting games (by this I mean Touhou/EFZ/etc). With few exceptions (ie: Blitzkampf), they eschew the elements of 2D fighting that make it fun and instead focus on racking up the highest combos possible.

and if you have doujin chars anyway, make sure you have marvel chars.
-----------
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Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 03:10:14 am by c001357

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#46  December 23, 2008, 02:43:58 pm
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Chiba said, December 22, 2008, 10:25:31 pm
I think that you can build well-balanced characters simply by ignoring the majority of characters from doujin fighting games (by this I mean Touhou/EFZ/etc). With few exceptions (ie: Blitzkampf), they eschew the elements of 2D fighting that make it fun and instead focus on racking up the highest combos possible.

You can have EFZ and Touhou characters, they just have to be the right ones. Like exclude Ayu, Kanna and Mai from EFZ.
Lets not forget how terribly broken MvC characters are in MUGEN.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#47  December 23, 2008, 05:00:07 pm
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yeah, it's pretty weird that a lto of people complain about foujin game chars, when vs series chars are more overpowered.

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#48  December 24, 2008, 12:40:52 am
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Tell me about it.
Raiden is the only non-boss tier from Mortal Kombat.

Cable, Storm, Magneto and Sentinel were the cheapest characters in MvC2. Whoever challenges this statement needs to go to an actual arcade more often.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#49  December 24, 2008, 02:53:59 am
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TamerZack said, December 24, 2008, 12:40:52 am
Tell me about it.
Raiden is the only non-boss tier from Mortal Kombat.

Cable, Storm, Magneto and Sentinel were the cheapest characters in MvC2. Whoever challenges this statement needs to go to an actual arcade more often.

were? cheap?

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#50  December 24, 2008, 03:42:52 am
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I have been waiting for this moment.

Cable:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
[size=5pt]Hyper Viper Beam gives you the ability to use a super again. Infinite.[/size]

Storm:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
[size=5pt]Kong's AI is a good example.[/size]

Magneto:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
[size=5pt]Same as Storm[/size]

Sentinel is obvious.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#51  December 24, 2008, 03:53:02 am
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TamerZack said, December 24, 2008, 03:42:52 am
Magneto:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

lol no.  Any Mags player who'd try that in an actual MvC2 game would lose pretty badly.

Kong just sucks at making characters, so please find a better Magneto.  I agree that he's overpowered, but spamming Hyper Gravs isn't the reason why.

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#52  December 24, 2008, 04:04:00 am
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Raffine said, December 24, 2008, 03:53:02 am

lol no.  Any Mags player who'd try that in an actual MvC2 game would lose pretty badly.

Kong just sucks at making characters, so please find a better Magneto.  I agree that he's overpowered, but spamming Hyper Gravs isn't the reason why.
But when translated into MUGEN, the whole concept of flying like that makes him only beatable by two types of characters.
Arcana Heart and Marvel vs Capcom.

Any links to a good Magneto?

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Sentinel, Juggernaut and Hulk.[/size]
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#53  December 24, 2008, 06:07:12 am
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#54  December 24, 2008, 06:44:40 am
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So?

Also I'm not a big fan of Sunboy's characters, I didn't like how his Jin came out.
That and I remembered a link to another Magneto.
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#55  December 24, 2008, 05:07:13 pm
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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#56  December 24, 2008, 05:23:05 pm
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if theyre smash players ;D

PotS

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#57  December 24, 2008, 07:23:48 pm
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Throws are cheap and honorless.
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Siebzehn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#58  December 25, 2008, 01:58:43 am
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And totally gay. Why would muscular men grap other muscular men and slam them aside from gay S&M practice?

So throws should only work on women. Even R.Mika's.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Zero-Sennin

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#59  December 25, 2008, 04:06:58 am
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The Rippah, Roo'jizah Panzermanathod said, December 25, 2008, 01:58:43 am
So throws should only work on women. Even R.Mika's.

*Zero-Sennin diligently hacks gender identification into MUGEN with a twisted grin on his face.*

Seriously, though, I kind of have to agree with POTS on the whole throw thing. Which is why characters I make do crap damage with them (unless it's a special or super throw, in which case I just go for the jugular) - it's a guard breaker that lacks cheapness when it's done that way.

Actually, guard break moves themselves are pretty useful, when they're not spammable and risky enough to avoid constant (ab)use.

c001357 said, December 24, 2008, 05:23:05 pm
if theyre smash players ;D

Pssh. Everyone knows that in Smash, tires don exits. :kugoi:
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Siebzehn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#60  December 25, 2008, 05:10:12 am
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Maybe the guard breaks could be done like the Gundam Battle Assault games. It was a close range attack with crap damage and half second startup, but stunned. And it wasn't spammable.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Zero-Sennin

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#61  December 25, 2008, 05:25:37 am
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The Rippah, Roo'jizah Panzermanathod said, December 25, 2008, 05:10:12 am
Maybe the guard breaks could be done like the Gundam Battle Assault games. It was a close range attack with crap damage and half second startup, but stunned. And it wasn't spammable.

Exactly what I was getting at...counters do the job, too, if they're set up right. (I know someone probably mentioned counters already but I was recording my Juni's part in a video a minute ago...got counters on the brain now, lol.)
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Bloodly

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#62  December 26, 2008, 05:13:36 am
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Super jump/multiple jumps with decent height, air dash.

Also some way to prevent chip damage, even if it were only for a time.

To be blunt, you need to be able to apply some sort of pressure even at long range(or be able to survive such pressure whilst you close in-think of Zangief's projectile immunity during Lariat), or you're in a bad place.  Being able to close in in a single bound can provide that even for throw-heavy characters.
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Luigi Master

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#63  December 26, 2008, 05:53:15 am
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Chiba said, December 22, 2008, 10:25:31 pm
the enemy AI was coded to turtle (like Judgespear's "fixes" to Warner's characters).

Homer might block a lot, but he's incredibly stupid.  Plus KingShadow3X or whatever calls himself "a good AI coder".  I coded Peter's predictable AI, but never got real help, so I just kinda rushed it.

Anyhow, @ Zack:  Honestly, I'd much RATHER lose to some MvC character rather than some generic Mary Sue from Melty Blood.  They (MvC) might be snobbish, but Melty Blood's passive aggressiveness is far worse.

Anyway, I thought about a crash parry gimmick, to balance out parry whoring.  You can parry a certain amount of attacks (are directly proportionate to the damage of the original attack, parry crash has 100 or so life), and once crashed, you'll get hit instead.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
ross61 said, January 12, 2009, 02:48:34 am
No  Dark Sean and Gouken are Good characters
Tetsuo9999 said, January 16, 2009, 01:11:59 am
Trivial knowledge: Anime sucks.

Cybaster

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#64  December 26, 2008, 11:34:45 am
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"Parry whoring", as you call it, only affects AI, since the computer can basically do what he wants. It's totally useless (and stupid :P) for a human, because you already take enough risks trying to parry instead of just guarding.

Luigi Master

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#65  December 26, 2008, 05:14:05 pm
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God's Anger said, December 26, 2008, 11:34:45 am
"Parry whoring", as you call it, only affects AI, since the computer can basically do what it wants. It's totally useless (and stupid :P) for a human, because you already take enough risks trying to parry instead of just guarding.

So, if I am getting what you're saying, constant parry is fair when a human uses it, but not the AI?
ross61 said, January 12, 2009, 02:48:34 am
No  Dark Sean and Gouken are Good characters
Tetsuo9999 said, January 16, 2009, 01:11:59 am
Trivial knowledge: Anime sucks.

Cybaster

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#66  December 26, 2008, 06:39:35 pm
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Have you fought a single human player who can parry constantly ? And no, I'm not talking about people who use Gouken or other chars who have a parry window which is so long that it makes DOA's counter system hard to use.

Bonobi

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#67  December 27, 2008, 04:24:41 am
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Advancing guard and just the overall game mechanics of the vs series, from Capcom, starting from X-Men vs Street Fighter is all I think characters need to compete against Guilty Gear/Doujin game characters.

It gives more freedom to the character overall and allows you to get away from some attacks that, with the beginning basic fighting system (like Street Fighter II) just won't allow.
Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 04:28:22 am by Ruurenjin

Baby Bonnie Hood

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#68  December 28, 2008, 09:19:07 am
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Speaking of Melty Blood, it's got some mechanics that I dislike.  Like reverse beat.  Combos are meant to go forwards, not backwards.  So much bullshit can be performed by going back to a jab from a heavy attack, like making yourself unpunishable if your combo string gets blocked.

Comboable throws are another thing I hate, but this is more about moron MUGEN coders not doing them right.  Making me block an air combo and then throwing me at the end is not possible in the actual game (...right?), but now I hate them anyway.  Fuckers.

Finally, invincible backdashes piss me off the most.  Especially if they're not done right and the character is capable of avoiding everything by backdashing over and over because they're now completely invincible to everything.  Fuck that shit.  And fuck any real game that has it too, I don't fucking care if you become vulnerable before you finish backdashing.  I will never ever implement this in any of my works, because it's fucking stupid.  Fucking shit.....

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#69  December 29, 2008, 02:11:06 am
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Raffine said, December 28, 2008, 09:19:07 am
Comboable throws are another thing I hate, but this is more about moron MUGEN coders not doing them right.  Making me block an air combo and then throwing me at the end is not possible in the actual game (...right?), but now I hate them anyway.  Fuckers.
I've never seen it before.

Raffine said, December 28, 2008, 09:19:07 am
Finally, invincible backdashes piss me off the most.  Especially if they're not done right and the character is capable of avoiding everything by backdashing over and over because they're now completely invincible to everything.  Fuck that shit.  And fuck any real game that has it too, I don't fucking care if you become vulnerable before you finish backdashing.  I will never ever implement this in any of my works, because it's fucking stupid.  Fucking shit.....
Thats because you're using inaccurate characters. And if it pisses you off so badly, then edit the character. You have the power.

You have works?
EDIT: I'm surprised no-one here is arguing about MK characters. They must be pretty balanced.
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Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:15:42 am by TamerZack

Bloodly

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#70  December 31, 2008, 09:10:18 pm
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Compared to how the computer uses them?  Probably.  Best example of a cheating AI.
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Siebzehn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#71  December 31, 2008, 10:05:34 pm
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Good, I'm not the only one who thinks MK's AI cheats. Especially in (U)MK3/Trilogy.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Bloodly

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#72  January 06, 2009, 08:02:00 pm
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'Thinks', nothing.  I'm at least 30% sure it's been proven.  It's only 30% because I haven't experienced MK AI in full.  My main and worst experience was pushing through to Shao Khan on an emulated MK2 once.  How it is POSSIBLE for a boss to be such an ass with infinite health is beyond me, but he does it.(Hey, I was doing it as a time-waster at a friend's.  Don't mock.)
\"So you have chosen....death.\"-Saruman.

Siebzehn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#73  January 06, 2009, 11:24:54 pm
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I actually haven't  beaten a MK games legitly until a few months ago.

It was kinda weird... the first time I beat MK3 without cheating.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Luigi Master

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#74  January 07, 2009, 05:06:26 am
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My brother beat MK2 for the SNES, if it counts...
ross61 said, January 12, 2009, 02:48:34 am
No  Dark Sean and Gouken are Good characters
Tetsuo9999 said, January 16, 2009, 01:11:59 am
Trivial knowledge: Anime sucks.

Siebzehn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#75  January 07, 2009, 05:28:56 am
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I could never beat Kintoro.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Luigi Master

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#76  January 07, 2009, 05:37:40 am
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He beat the bosses by back jump and hard kick as Liu Kang.

Actually, I think it was MKI, as it had Goro.
ross61 said, January 12, 2009, 02:48:34 am
No  Dark Sean and Gouken are Good characters
Tetsuo9999 said, January 16, 2009, 01:11:59 am
Trivial knowledge: Anime sucks.
Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 05:41:02 am by Luigi Master

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Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#77  January 07, 2009, 07:49:22 pm
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The Rippah, Roo'jizah P.a.n.Z. said, December 31, 2008, 10:05:34 pm
Good, I'm not the only one who thinks MK's AI cheats. Especially in (U)MK3/Trilogy.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MKWalker


As for ways to make fair fights more likely, I'm personally in favour of mechanics that give you some advantages as your life gets lower - the classic example are the low-life supers in the Fatal Fury games - but simple, intuitive controls are extremely important for that to work (ex: one good thing about Mugen being 6-button is that you can take a 4-button KoF character and assign defensive stuff like rolls to a single button instead of having to press 2 attack buttons at once).

While reading this a possibility crossed my mind - having a character's attacks' priority increase slightly if:

- he's spent some time not attacking (either was being comboed for a long time with no chance to retaliate, or simply saving his effort for a better opportunity, to make a hit count)

- has 1 or more levels or power bar - priority may increase proportionately to the amount of accumulated power levels

- priority inversely proportional to current life - so at near-death hits will absolutely take priority (which shouldn't necessarily imply a chance to win, but might at least prevent a character from losing by Perfect if he has enough time to throw a jab at the right range)


This could apply to damage or even life recovery, of course, but priority might help a bit when dealing with characters with far more offensive options, at least when it comes to attacking.

Kensuke

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#78  January 11, 2009, 08:12:02 pm
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Personally I feel that damage scaling is important to let things compete.

Less combos = more strength and defense.


Not all black and white but this essentially covers it.


Snk/Third Strike/Alpha Highest Defense/Attack
Guilty Gear Etc Lower Defense/Attack
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Dr. H

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#79  January 12, 2009, 12:50:09 am
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I for one like to use as minimum of subsystem as the character permits, too much subsystems damages the matchup more than the lack.
Either one powerful defensive thing or a evasive one, one preventing your character to be cheaped too.
Cancels are a delicate subject, if your character can't do too many combos, chances are there's already something compensating it, thing that you'll likely not change. :P I'm ok with power charge, covers some A.I. holes to say the least.

TamerZack

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#80  January 12, 2009, 03:36:27 am
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Kensuke said, January 11, 2009, 08:12:02 pm
Personally I feel that damage scaling is important to let things compete.

Less combos = more strength and defense.


Not all black and white but this essentially covers it.


Snk/Third Strike/Alpha Highest Defense/Attack
Guilty Gear Etc Lower Defense/Attack
What about characters with large damage dampening? If you lower their attack, you've swapped places, not achieved anything.
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Siebzehn

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#81  January 12, 2009, 06:57:38 am
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Thinking about it, he's right. Look at Guilty Gear, which has a great deal of dampening.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Captain Storm

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#82  January 12, 2009, 10:08:37 pm
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But the damage done by combos is still quite high. Anyway I feel that most characters just need a way to deal with being constantly attacked and avoid getting locked down. So a parry, dodge or even a guard cancel is usually enough.

Bastard Mami

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#83  January 13, 2009, 04:21:13 am
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infinites.

c001357

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#84  April 07, 2009, 04:23:58 pm
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sorry for necro but heres something for you
pushblocking. think about it.
actually i got that from reading xenozip.

PotS

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#85  April 08, 2009, 01:24:58 am
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Yeah.  That alone saves the life of many chars in JoJo.

Pushing the other guy away for free can get annoying versus "normal" (SF etc) chars though, so I guess it's not something that can go in just any char.  Oh wait, but then again Darkstalkers did it right with the longer inputs on that.
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Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:28:58 am by P.o.t.S.

c001357

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#86  April 08, 2009, 02:20:08 am
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Just give the character autoguard moves, or a really good antiair.
Really, just take a look at what you already have.

P.o.t.S. said, April 08, 2009, 01:24:58 am
so I guess it's not something that can go in just any char.

But what chars would deserve it? We don't know. Too many characters, so just do what you want. I've said this in different words before and it's interesting that most of the problems in playing mugen lead to this statement.

N-mario was right when he said "just block". Tons of games have infinites, unblockables and 100%s. Its (partly) the skill that counts, not the character. People just don't see that because of A.I.
Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 09:36:15 am by c001357

Djedah

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#87  April 08, 2009, 05:40:38 pm
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Any character with a spammable form of a far range attack and any form of a shoryuken would be able to hold it's own. 

Rikard said, January 08, 2010, 02:26:22 pm
Of course he will not name call you since you own him. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed if my dog name called me.

c001357

Re: Things that help chars compete in Mugen
#88  April 09, 2009, 02:31:08 am
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