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WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside* (Read 8436 times)

Started by Dc414, September 20, 2008, 09:05:51 am
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Dc414

WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#1  September 20, 2008, 09:05:51 am
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After about a week of tinkering with it i have to say it has its positives and it has its negatives.

Positives,

1. From a graphical standpoint a higher resolution is always better. i find that stages with color loss shine in this hack, it makes it harder to see any color loss.
2. As well you can use standard Hires screens. Yes they will be smaller because of the higher resolution, but , they look a lot sharper and it allows you a lot more room to be creative.  Look at it  as a way to add on to existing stages, or make newer stages in a higher resolution.
3. Allows for future expansion for rippers. Newer games such as Basura X , Kof XiII , Blue Blaze and GG all run HD sprites. Now when they are ripped there is less reason to downgrade them to fit into the current system.

Negatives

1. Even though this runs at a higher resolution it is still the same engine, limited by the same problems it always has. We are still for the most part limited to 8 bit indexed images at 256 colors. (I have managed to get better results tinkering with 16 bit indexed pngs. )
2. Plenty of users who look for source material tend to find them on the internet. ALL of these (unless it is a direct download) are at 72dpi.  Now any designer will tell you 72dpi is not good for print, so source material need to be between 150-300dpi. this also helps greatly when doing higher resolution material.  Every one has blown up an image from the web and has seen the pixelation.  But sadly this just narrows the pool of available resources. (that is unless you create your own) 72dpi can look good with some processing but for the most part looks bad.
3. Low res stages are all but obsolete here, it is not that they don't work but they are so small they are unplayable.

Some people say that this is a resource hog. Well i did some benchmarks.
My current machine for testing :Athlon AMD 64 bit proces. 2.29 Ghz with 2gig of ram and a radeon 9600 ati card. both running the King of streets sp.

CPU:
Winmugen HD: & Winmugen plus both topped my cpu out at 100% in 1280x960 resolution windowed.

Memory usage:
WinmugenHD used on average through 1 round 530MB of memory
WinMugen+ average through 1 round about 545MB of memory

Both averaged about the same, Both run fine with no problems. So the idea that Winmugen HD takes up more resources is wrong, Wm+ actually took slightly more.

I know i am not the authority when it comes to this stuff, but all i have seen is opinions with no fact. I am writing this as an unbiased review of the new hack. Take it as you will.

Cost is also not that much of an issue if you want to upgrade. Here are some links to more than acceptable components. Prices are taken from Pricewatch.com at time of writing.

Memory:
    $     34.33      -        ddr pc3200 2gb kit
    $     17.48      -        ddr pc3200 1gb     
    $     51.25      -        ddr2-667 pc2-5300 4gb

Graphic Cards:
    $     33.00      -        radeon hd 2400     
    $     37.99      -        radeon 9800     
    $     96.99      -        geforce 7900
    $     158.24      -       geforce 8800 640mb     

Monitors:

LG
$205.99
Incl. Shipping L222WT  Black LG L222WT Premium 22in Widescreen LCD w Hardware Acceleration DVI 5000:1 5ms


Conclusion

As i stated before i am not the authority on all of this. That is why i leave it open to you the users to decide what is better for you.
If you can thing of any more positives or negatives let me know ill update this list. But please take an unbiased stance on this. If you got a positive try to leave a negative, and vice verse.

Just to show you guys the clarity of HD here 2 screens of what i am working on

Title Screen (Previously restricted by 320x240 now 640x480)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2/dc414/mugen2-2.png

Select Screen (Previously restricted by 640x480 now 1280x960)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2/dc414/mugen/mugen3-1.png

MugenMasterNo1

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#2  September 20, 2008, 01:04:45 pm
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All I can say is, In the long run, this is GooD man,
A step foward in the mugen world is always a good thing.
Now creators will have to reach a new level, one that only a very few are
prepared for. This will mean New HiDef screen packs with Multiple select slots like EVE SP MUST start getting created
immediately to lure all mainstream mugen players/creators into switching to HiDef too!
And think of all the wicked HiDef stages that can now be made with PS2++ worthy graphics!

Rōjenomu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#3  September 20, 2008, 02:11:46 pm
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is the title screen pic in game or a mock up?
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

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Dc414

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#4  September 20, 2008, 06:28:33 pm
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both of those pics are directly from in game, no mock up both were taken using f12

Messatsu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#5  September 21, 2008, 04:26:14 am
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So who runs benchmarks but doesn't say the tests they performed?  Do you have content that will test your system or are you just using what is laying around on your harddrive (which I suspect is the case)?

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#6  September 21, 2008, 04:37:48 am
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I miss the old days when 64mb in ram were just enough to run mugen... ::)


and yes, in benchmarks, you need to say what you tested against what, what char made by who or what...

if the char is heavier (lots of frames) it consumes more ram...

i suppose is better to test with basic kungfuman...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Siebzehn

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#7  September 21, 2008, 02:07:33 pm
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Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Dr. Mask The 3rd

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#8  September 21, 2008, 02:09:40 pm
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Why would you spend money just you upgrade your computer for Mugen?

itsjenyoumen

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#9  September 21, 2008, 06:38:25 pm
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^+1 agree with yeah buddy  :sugoi:

Lobo

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#10  September 21, 2008, 07:13:04 pm
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Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#11  September 22, 2008, 12:22:00 am
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The Rippah, Roo'jizah Panzermanathod said, September 21, 2008, 02:07:33 pm
More sprite resizing?

yeah, there are not many 2D fighting games in HD, and mugen jumping to it seems hasty, taking in account its actual engine problems...

having an HD 8bit 256 color image is not exactly a big jump...

IF, and only if, the engine could accept higher quality images, not just bigger images, then it could've been a truly next step...

leave HD to shugen do, its an engine that, if well developed, can accept this kind of parameters...

winmugen plus is the way to go as far as limitations in the engine are present...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#12  September 22, 2008, 04:07:14 pm
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Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#13  September 22, 2008, 06:52:07 pm
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to a company that died broke?, got sold to a korean one group that fck it up, and returned with a bunch of re-released old games (that we love, i know, but doesn't change the fact) and hasn't released anything new after some years...

yeah, i think they already know...

like i said, not a big jump...

big jump is GGXX graphics, 2D, but with all the necessary color depth and size...and mugen, with its limitations, can't get to that right now...hopefully, maybe one day another developed engine can get to that...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#14  September 22, 2008, 07:00:18 pm
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what is this crazy talk about colors anyway?

K.O.D

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#15  September 22, 2008, 07:02:46 pm
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Wow, and they said the FPS community are a bunch of graphic whores.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#16  September 22, 2008, 07:03:30 pm
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@[E]
thats because of winmugenHD...

the dude here is talking about his stance about it against winmugen+

but the fact that the HD thing is only a difference in size...and that the image itself needs to be still displayed in the old format, makes it lose its whole purpose as an HD image display engine...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#17  September 22, 2008, 07:04:43 pm
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Why does it lose that ?

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#18  September 22, 2008, 07:55:15 pm
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'cause HD is not just size, it is image depth as well as other factors...

see a 1600x1200 8bit image, then see a 1600x1200 full color depth (it is 32bit isn't it?)

winmugenHD only helps in not resizing full size sprites from new HD games...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Messatsu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#19  September 22, 2008, 09:48:06 pm
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Colors argument is stupid because who is honestly going to notice the difference between a sprite of 256 colors and 16 million?  The only thing affected by the color limit is that backgrounds have to be pieced together to have 1 to 1 conversion.  And that only matters to the developer.

Quote
big jump is GGXX graphics, 2D, but with all the necessary color depth and size...and mugen, with its limitations, can't get to that right now...
Huh? ???

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#20  September 22, 2008, 09:54:17 pm
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hum, it also depends with the kind of monitor...

i use a TV not a monitor, so, images are different...

but i must accept that in monitor is actually difficult to distinguish  :-\

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#21  September 22, 2008, 10:36:42 pm
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I don't think any selfrespecting company is using sprites over 256 colors....

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#22  September 22, 2008, 11:06:11 pm
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i thought they were no less than 16bit...

or maybe its because of the dpi?

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#23  September 22, 2008, 11:08:32 pm
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It looks like you are confusing a lot of concepts in there.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#24  September 22, 2008, 11:12:29 pm
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ok i think my last post is a bit fuzzy now...

fixing...

i thought it was no less than 16b, and a better dpi

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Jessy

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#25  September 22, 2008, 11:18:12 pm
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I don't know..I use the normal Winmugen... ;D
Spierdalaj! Kocham Polska..Ameryka Łacińska jest odurzona
..pedał

since he is inactive,I follow Spinicci Giacomo(King Star) legacy.!!!

Messatsu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#26  September 23, 2008, 01:02:48 am
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Kagami said, September 22, 2008, 11:12:29 pm
i thought it was no less than 16b, and a better dpi
DPI is OS independent.  That all lies in your monitor hardware. 

Quote
i use a TV not a monitor, so, images are different...
Today's monitors typically display in "one flat color".  Televisions today have features that try to auto-adjust the colors in the scene amongst each other.  Playing videogames on a TV with this feature on = wtf.

16-bit / 8-bit / etc. designations had to do with processor size and color palette upper maximums (though these weren't directly dictated by processor size per se), not color of individual sprites.  Mugen displays in 24-bit color.  Mugen displays individual sprites up to 8-bit.  Mugen can composite backgrounds, and to a less easy-to-implement standpoint, and characters in 24-bit color.

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#27  September 23, 2008, 04:32:16 am
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oh, so the 8-bit is for individual sprites only  ::)

still is a limitation not being able to use 16b in there isn't it?
but thats engine specific...

just a thought...

the select screen hasn't been changed yet isn't it?

like the select screen that is right now different in winmugen+

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."
Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 04:40:01 am by Kagami

Messatsu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#28  September 23, 2008, 07:44:49 am
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But what could you possibly do with 2D character images greater than 256 colors!?  You can complain about your HD "standards" all day.  Nobody even sprites with that high of a color count.

Quote
still is a limitation not being able to use 16b in there isn't it?
but thats engine specific...
24-bit and that's what most games are at anyway.

Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

S.D.

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#29  September 23, 2008, 08:24:36 am
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Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#30  September 23, 2008, 08:44:39 am
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Messatsu said, September 23, 2008, 07:44:49 am
But what could you possibly do with 2D character images greater than 256 colors!?  You can complain about your HD "standards" all day.  Nobody even sprites with that high of a color count.

Quote
still is a limitation not being able to use 16b in there isn't it?
but thats engine specific...
24-bit and that's what most games are at anyway.
the 16b part was about the individual 8b...

and now, i don't complain about winmugenHD, better to have a greater resolution than a lowest...

but it's strange calling it that just because it has a newer max resolution, and that's nowhere near HD isn't it?

how much we will wait 'till we see a new mugen that supports even higher resolutions anyways?, looks like some already have found how to crack that, how many months have passed since wm+? 8?...and what it will be then? winmugenHD+?, its certainly a misleading name...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."
Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 09:29:59 am by Kagami

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#31  September 23, 2008, 04:29:30 pm
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er...Hd is pretty much just about a higher resolution.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#32  September 23, 2008, 05:17:59 pm
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not just resolution...also color depth among other things...

but it also depends in hardware, better HD, better dpi...actual hardware is, what,1080p?

hum....relating to the topic now (the offtopicness is already to big) why the wmhd has not been adopted yet?, if it's compatible with the older material (stages and chars), then, why is not being adopted yet?, or is being tested only?

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."
Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:40:01 pm by Kagami

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#33  September 24, 2008, 03:46:52 pm
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I give up.

Kakuto

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#34  September 24, 2008, 06:09:33 pm
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Starwarznut

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#35  September 24, 2008, 06:28:37 pm
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What am I missing here? 256 different colors is a lot for just one frame of animation isn't it? I mean, hell, if you mess up the pallete it will look bad, but otherwise I don't see the problem. I wish there was a way to get older low-res stages to work on this without converting stuff, but at least I can have a giant select screen and get it to look decent now (assuming I get around to upsizing Mugen Fighting Jam again...)
グラスを食べるが痛くない。

Dr. Mask The 3rd

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#36  September 24, 2008, 06:54:45 pm
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I'm sorry to burst so many egos here, but as much as you say it, This is not High Definition.

It takes more than a Screen Resolution change, to make it High Resolution. Even if you buy a HD compatible Monitor, and play it on that, It's not going to make a Difference. HD does not only change Picture size, but it also changes Sound, and Quality.

Let me explain it to you this way, Take a look at any Xbox 360 or PS3 game image, and then go and play the Game on a HD television, you will see that the Screenshot does not do any justice to what you see on the TV.

What this new Mugen allows is Compatibility with Larger images, nothing else. Sure it will look different because of the Resolution, But it will be the same thing if you're playing Mugen Plus with 640x480

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#37  September 24, 2008, 06:56:20 pm
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Dr. Mask The 3rd

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#38  September 24, 2008, 06:58:29 pm
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So, you guys consider Guilty Gear and Arcana Heart to be High Definition?

Starwarznut

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#39  September 24, 2008, 07:06:42 pm
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Ya, because it is over what 720p has in pixels now. (I guess it would if you ran it on a good tv anyway. Lol I wonder where this is going, maybe I missed something. Guilty Gear on the Wii looks really nice, but graphics people usually bash the Wii because it isn't as graphically power.)

Isn't HD about size.
グラスを食べるが痛くない。

Bastard Mami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#40  September 24, 2008, 07:09:49 pm
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Just No Point

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#41  September 24, 2008, 07:39:34 pm
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GG and AH are not HD

They are Hi Res

You couldn't play SF2 HD on PS2 without loosing lots of detail to the sprites.

Either that or the sprites would go off the screen.

NOTE Hi Res is merely the word that has been used to dub that particular resolution of sprite.

720 would be dubbed hi def

1080 true HD

Though they all involve resolution.

It's all about how many pixels a screen can display in a given area. The more pixels it can display, the higher the res/def
Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 07:44:15 pm by Just No Point

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#42  September 24, 2008, 08:15:12 pm
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^ That's what i been trying to say in all the other posts...

Hi-res...

now on topic...

why the new wmhd has not been, ahm, advertised? like what happened to wm+?, is there some kind of incompatibility, issue, malfunction, or something in it? (like not being able to use the past things without having to forcedly resize all frames again)   

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Walt

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#43  September 24, 2008, 09:26:58 pm
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WMHD? where?
"We live in a world of perpetual outrage"

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#44  September 24, 2008, 09:37:27 pm
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i haven't seen that here, but it's another hack

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Bastard Walt

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#45  September 24, 2008, 09:41:10 pm
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mmh.. I think this might have been said already but... why in god's green earth would I want to see SF2 sprites Scaled x4?
"We live in a world of perpetual outrage"

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#46  September 24, 2008, 09:51:19 pm
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"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Messatsu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#47  September 25, 2008, 01:07:17 am
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Bastard Wolf said, May 12, 2008, 05:02:05 pm

Many people risk their lives everyday by having Mugen.

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#48  September 25, 2008, 08:39:47 am
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16:9 ratio could really help with the stages :P

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

Rikimtasu

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#49  September 25, 2008, 09:45:25 am
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  • wat

Kagami

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#50  September 25, 2008, 10:19:05 pm
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ohhh i see, so that's all the problems it has...now i understand why it's not used that much...

"There's a Time to live, There's a Time to Die, But no one can escape The Destiny....."

1nfrnus

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#51  November 01, 2008, 06:34:38 am
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Why dont you release a vid showing the HD mugen.......

Drex

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#52  November 01, 2008, 07:07:56 am
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How about instead of waiting for the xxxMB video, you just download the xMB mugen HD program and try it yourself?

-Red-

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#53  November 01, 2008, 07:10:18 am
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Are you serious? Is like... 3 clicks! FORGET IT!
pls

Siebzehn

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#54  November 01, 2008, 07:29:54 am
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A demo would be nice for the interested. Just don't put it on YouTube for quality.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

Drex

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#55  November 01, 2008, 07:54:11 am
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  • By eFex
You're right Rednavi... it was stupid of me to make such a notion.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

~*Ishida-Uryuu*~

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#56  November 01, 2008, 10:03:18 am
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                  ~*The Last Quincy*~         ~Sig by [TempesT]
My MUGEN shit:
MvC2 Tron Bonne, MvC Kim Kaphwan, Barns (Destruction Desire),
and Burai Yamamoto (Arranged)

MangeX

Re: WinmugenHD vs Winmugen+ *Read inside*
#57  March 19, 2009, 06:48:06 pm
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  • If you rip sprites i´ll rip your code
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 ;D It will be amazing if anyone can make a hack to be set betwen the winmugenplus and the winmugenhd in wich the logo,intro,menu,options and versus have the same resolution than the select screen i mean 640x480.
if im in correct technicaly we have both exes so can be compared and only modify the values of the plus version to put the values from the HD one
if someone have a hex editor maybe this can be possible and all the mugen comunity can have a "winmugen Hr3" or a "winmugen hr hack 3"
 ??? its a supotition but who knows maybe in this year come to light a new winmugen hack   ;P
There is no knowledge that is not power
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