Loyalty or friendship?

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[†KillerMondless†]

Which is more important of these two? Can you have one without the other?

[Iced]

Depends on what you consider Loyalty.

What is someone loyal to you? someone that does what you think they should be doing?
Someone that is truthful to you?
Someone that you would go to if you had committed a crime and needed someone to help you set an alibi?

[B. Marquis]

What is Friendship without Loyalty? what is Loyalty without Friendship? The only reason they are loyal to you then is because of your feats and power, and when that's gone, what do you have?

You can't live life with just loyal subordinates and acquaintances. What do you have when that branch of life is over? What if they stop being loyal? Greed, Fame, Vanity, Jealousy, It's a dagger in the heart of a man of power. It's what lives on until the day he dies, if he is no friend to just one.

[†KillerMondless†]

You raise a good point there, I personally would consider a loyalty something along the lines of someone who can be there if help was needed from them because they know you would have they're back if they needed you-THOUGH!

In a situation where you may have been in the wrong and they expected you to come aong and be there but "said" person wasn't for the reason of knowing right from wrong in that sitatuion could you be mad at them?

I may have a persons back 100% of the way but if they did something that they know was ****ed up and expected me to be there, I can't say I would support them, especially if there's a good chance and I could get thrown down with them just because I was there.

So where do Loyalty and Friendship meet and where do they separate when in the end, everyone in life is living for themselves at the end of the day and can't afford another person to come along and mess their order of life out of loyalty?

[Tony 3rd]

What is Friendship without Loyalty? what is Loyalty without Friendship? The only reason they are loyal to you then is because of your feats and power, and when that's gone, what do you have?

You can't live life with just loyal subordinates and acquaintances. What do you have when that branch of life is over? What if they stop being loyal? Greed, Fame, Vanity, Jealousy, It's a dagger in the heart of a man of power. It's what lives on until the day he dies, if he is no friend to just one.

quoted for truth.

you can't have friendship without loyalty.

however, you can have loyalty without friendship. but that won't last. not it will be meaningfull to one's existence.

You raise a good point there, I personally would consider a loyalty something along the lines of someone who can be there if help was needed from them because they know you would have they're back if they needed you-THOUGH!

In a situation where you may have been in the wrong and they expected you to come aong and be there but "said" person wasn't for the reason of knowing right from wrong in that sitatuion could you be mad at them?

I may have a persons back 100% of the way but if they did something that they know was ****ed up and expected me to be there, I can't say I would support them, especially if there's a good chance and I could get thrown down with them just because I was there.

If you fucked up, your friends will be the firsts ones to tell you you fucked up. and probably will work with you to try to mends things.

anyone who is by your side only when things are good, but abandon you on the bad times,  can not be called loyal, not even friend.

So where do Loyalty and Friendship meet and where do they separate when in the end, everyone in life is living for themselves at the end of the day and can't afford another person to come along and mess their order of life out of loyalty?

Loyalty is just the first step to friendship. once you achieve that level, your lives will be so entangled, that one will affect the other.
in other words: things that mess with your life will mess with your friends, and vice versa.

[ⒻⓊⒸⓀⓎⒺⒶⒽ]

Neither, "true" friends are for losers. As long as you all know you will help each other out within reason and go out for dinner/drink/coffee once in a while that's all that matters to me.

I don't need to constantly keep a tab/check on whether my friends are friends and/or loyal to me. If I had to do that, well, I question whether if any of the above applies to them.

[B. Marquis]

Easier in the mind to believe either extreme, and brace yourself is the other is true.

If you do not believe that your friend is loyal, and they show that they are in an event, then you are wrong, and it's alright to persue a stronger bond, if so wish.

If you do believe that your friend is loyal, and they show that they are not, then stop communicating with them. If they want a reason, give them a reason, you already have it in your mind he/she's nothing. Maybe they will give you a reason as to why. It's up to you to take it as such or as an excuse.

[Iced]

You cant really trust on people. Most of them are loyal until they find something that they would rather be untruthful towards you with. Be it sex be it money... your "loyal" friends, are "most" of the time, just people pretending to have morals while they dont want something that those morals keep them from getting.


I had friends going from "closest person I have" to "person i see around at work and dont talk to other than casually saying hi" in the space of weeks, people whose moral fiber I would put my hands in the fire for, that not only started lying to my face as they kept acting as if nothing had ever happened just to keep their moral facade.

[Julia~]

Just because someone is your friend that does nto make that person any more morally correct/strong. a shitty person is a shitty person regardless of friendship and a honest person with strong moral is that without having to be close to you. That's why a  close friend can backstab you while a coworker that yu barely talk with can put his work/life in the line because he believes he is right.

[Mr. Scruffy Detective]

Friendship is overrated. There's no such thing as trust and respect. Other people are just tools for you to achieve your own personal goals.

[†KillerMondless†]

Just because someone is your friend that does nto make that person any more morally correct/strong. a shitty person is a shitty person regardless of friendship and a honest person with strong moral is that without having to be close to you. That's why a  close friend can backstab you while a coworker that yu barely talk with can put his work/life in the line because he believes he is right.

Which brigs it back to the question of when loy-ship meet and seperate from one another?

A close friend has a better chance of killing you on the inside than an associate could very easily and I would know through all of the times I've been stabbed in the back and heart from family and friends.

If anything almost every moment of life is a game that you're playing, knowing who's really a benefit for you to have as a friend and knowing who is going be along you to the very bitter end or just the deciding factors.

[Julia~]

You look for mutual benefit, being with a person that will onyl benefit yourself is selfish, being with a person that will only benefit the other person is stupid... or if you want o be a good person, being with a person that only benefits the other person makes that other person selfish, thus in the end is bad for that person.

[Purple]

Friendship is overrated. There's no such thing as trust and respect. Other people are just tools for you to achieve your own personal goals.

It's good to see, we are still a gaming community

[who, me?]

friendship is fun until you discover your friends suck.
loyalty is a relative word, you can betray a friend and justify yourself by saying that 'to betray friends' belongs to your principles or you can betray a friend honestly by directly telling him what you're doing (example: "I'm going to fuck your wife because she wants to, I'm being honest so don't bitch about it".)

[#Shaun]

Which is more important of these two? Can you have one without the other?

[TSUKASA (´･ω･`)]

a loyal enemy and a friendly arch nemesis

i want loyalty i don't need friends just loyal subjects will do.

[Sepp]

If

friendship = intimacy
loyalty = commitment

then after the triangular theory of love,

mere

Spoiler: friendship (click to show/hide)

- Liking/friendship in this case is not used in a trivial sense. Sternberg says that this intimate liking characterizes true friendships, in which a person feels a bondedness, a warmth, and a closeness with another but not intense passion or long-term commitment.

is preferable to

just loyalty

Spoiler: empty love (click to show/hide)

Empty love is characterized by commitment without intimacy or passion. Sometimes, a stronger love deteriorates into empty love.

but the goal is both:

Spoiler: both (click to show/hide)

Companionate love is an intimate, non-passionate type of love that is stronger than friendship because of the element of long-term commitment. Sexual desire is not an element of companionate love. This type of love is often found in marriages in which the passion has gone out of the relationship but a deep affection and commitment remain. The love ideally shared between family members is a form of companionate love, as is the love between close friends who have a platonic but strong friendship.

And whenever both are present it doesn't make sense for me to say one is more important in that context.


@Tsukasa

There's an expression that says you are are known by the quality of your enemies. And

From the true antagonist illimitable courage is transmitted to you.

[Sepp]

You cant really trust on people.

Spoiler: rest of post (click to show/hide)

Most of them are loyal until they find something that they would rather be untruthful towards you with. Be it sex be it money... your "loyal" friends, are "most" of the time, just people pretending to have morals while they dont want something that those morals keep them from getting.


I had friends going from "closest person I have" to "person i see around at work and dont talk to other than casually saying hi" in the space of weeks, people whose moral fiber I would put my hands in the fire for, that not only started lying to my face as they kept acting as if nothing had ever happened just to keep their moral facade.

There's something I read on a dead forum almost two years ago about that kind of trust and disappointment I will not forget. Someone, let's call him Gabe, broke somebody else's trust and there was an outrage on the forum.

It was about money. The guy was pissed with good reason, except -- I couldn't understand how he could have done that in the first place. Trust Gabe with money. From what I had read in the months before, he was a great guy, but...

Anyway I couldn't really say what irked me about topic starter complaining so much now about being betrayed and everybody joined in and slammed Gabe and said he could never be trusted with anything, or even more in general, that you can never really trust anybody else anyway etc.

I think it took until page 2 of the topic until somebody said what I couldn't put into words:

"I trust Gabe Chouinard as much as I trust any man alive. That is: I trust him to be Gabe. Period. Expect otherwise at your own risk."

Apparently somebody else also found that part interesting.

Stover is currently still my favorite author. (I can trust him to blow my mind, and put things into words I already know without knowing how to express them.)

Anyway this probably doesn't help anybody else at all but I like that idea of trusting everybody to be themselves. With it, you can 1) trust people completely and 2) everybody equally at the same time. XD

[who, me?]

From the true antagonist illimitable courage is transmitted to you.

 well that's kinda true for me, I mean I can get angry about enemies but that's the challenge, that's the fun afterall (enemies make you stronger, if they don't kill you or give you permanent injury). sometimes that courage can even turn into a really sweet form of malevolence, if the enemy plays dirty (j/k it's just a really comfortable way to justify mah evil ways )

[Sepp]

What do you despise? By this you are truly known.

--from Manual of Muad'Dib by the Princess Irulan