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POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar (Read 7479 times)

Started by extravagant, June 04, 2021, 11:01:51 AM
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POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#1  June 04, 2021, 11:01:51 AM
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Change my mind !!!!

What good is a custom combo if it's only 5 seconds long? In CvS2, CCs use the full meter which lets you get in the legendary SHOSHOSHO or paint the fence type of incentives. In my personal opinion, there should be a mandatory CCvid-21 shot (or perhaps an anal swab test, whatever floats your boat) that gives all POTS chars full meter usage during the activated moment of CCs.

Normally in CvS2 CCs can do a shitload of damage, ranging from 50% life to maybe even 70-80% life.

What do POTS characters do to accommodate that?

Just my personal opinion though! Not bashing anyone or anything. But I thought the subject of debate was worth mentioning since I have a few fighters in my channel complain that the CC mode felt too weak for them to be motivated enough to use.
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#2  June 04, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
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POTS chars are CVS inspired, people can use the available CVS versions.

From what I think pots used the EX groove which is a cheat more or less to make the chars as a basis and a bit of street fighter EX I guess with the super cancels.

I'm fine with the system as is but im a casual, maybe it can be limited to 3 bars only ?
Not sure how CVS also handles the damage, I know POTS uses a dampner of sorts each hit does less and less after a point.
I have chars in my roster that would bust the style wide open if they had 3 bars of CC.

Not sure what a good solution for this would be, maybe just use the CVS2 versions ?
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#3  June 04, 2021, 02:47:05 PM
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Just edit them to use the full bar?

DW

Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#4  June 07, 2021, 07:52:47 PM
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A lot of the time you're better off super cancelling instead of using CC with PotS' stuff. Though I'm sure it was due to balancing due to all of the other system mechanics that the player has access to. Especially with Power Charge available. It's best left as is, because you're gonna have to rebalance the entire mechanics as a whole if you try to make  it work like A-groove full, with all the other added benefits, it becomes far too good. I'm not sure if in CvS2 CC gave a few ticks of invulnerability on start up like PotS' gave his version, but that actually adds to it's utility quite a bit.

While I'm not the biggest fan of CC as a whole, I've actually grown to appreciate how PotS managed to incorporate into his system, with all the other perks, and not make it busted. While not as strong as the CvS2 version, it does have decent merit. Characters with loops still benefit greatly from it. I usually don't use it with most chars who have it, but JMM's Ken and Kyo, along with PotS' Geese can put in some work with it. Ken of course has the very simplistic, yet highly effective F + HK loop. Unfortunately JMM's Kyo doesn't have the HCB + K special loop like in CvS2, but he still has my personal favorite one; QCF + LP > QCF +HP repeat loop. And lastly Geese has the Jaeiken > Reppuken loop.

I personally feel it's fine as is, but that does depend on the char itself. Though the same could be said for the full version in general. If you do try and change it for the tournaments/gathering you have, you better take all the other system mechanics the chars have into account as well, or you're gonna be singing a different tune. :P
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#5  June 09, 2021, 09:49:56 AM
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CCvid-21 shot (or perhaps an anal swab test, whatever floats your boat)
lmao



It's a interesting point to make, A groove is equivalent to 2 stocks like V-ism, isn't it? Does being hit in CC end it like in Alpha 2? (I only played K groove so I have no idea). To have a 3 stock CC seems broken assuming the rate the bar drains is equivalent to a 2 bar A groove in CvS2 conversions (i.e. JZ and Waru).



Man you capcom/pots people have a harder time than the SNK people lol

Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#6  June 09, 2021, 06:09:29 PM
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Not sure what a good solution for this would be, maybe just use the CVS2 versions ?

Some players genuinely want to have the same duration of CC's like the original CvS2, but they expressed the lack of support it has, or it just seems uninteresting. People who genuinely want to do CCs are already disappointed. It's like playing CvS2, but not having A-Groove present.

Just edit them to use the full bar?

I mean I can, but that's not my job. I'm proposing what many believe to be a fair tweak to the POTS system in regards to CCs specifically. It isnt just about me to. It's about some of my fighters and some of my CvS2 friends who are A-Groove mains, picked up a POTS char, and got disappointed by the short CC duration time. They literally said it was almost like playing CvS2 without A-Groove, and if they could fix just that, it would be a big improvement.

I'm not sure if in CvS2 CC gave a few ticks of invulnerability on start up like PotS' gave his version, but that actually adds to it's utility quite a bit.

While I'm not the biggest fan of CC as a whole, I've actually grown to appreciate how PotS managed to incorporate into his system, with all the other perks, and not make it busted. While not as strong as the CvS2 version, it does have decent merit. Characters with loops still benefit greatly from it. I usually don't use it with most chars who have it, but JMM's Ken and Kyo, along with PotS' Geese can put in some work with it. Ken of course has the very simplistic, yet highly effective F + HK loop. Unfortunately JMM's Kyo doesn't have the HCB + K special loop like in CvS2, but he still has my personal favorite one; QCF + LP > QCF +HP repeat loop. And lastly Geese has the Jaeiken > Reppuken loop.

Haha yeah CvS2, during startup of CCs, have lots of invincibility. They do this to punish people who dont block, or press lots of buttons, giving the person much time to punish and whiffs and start the CCs.

I know Jmorphman just buffed up the damages to make up the short amount of time (as seen by his Ken)

And I do agree, there will need to be a mandatory vaccines rebalancing and tweaking of everything in order to make sure it's functional again. However, if every POTS creator out there decided to collectively commit to this change including rebalancing the damage, the light at the end of the tunnel is much brighter, more fun, and rewarding for CCs.


lmao



It's a interesting point to make, A groove is equivalent to 2 stocks like V-ism, isn't it? Does being hit in CC end it like in Alpha 2? (I only played K groove so I have no idea). To have a 3 stock CC seems broken assuming the rate the bar drains is equivalent to a 2 bar A groove in CvS2 conversions (i.e. JZ and Waru).




lol yeah if you get hit it's done. CCs in CvS2 isnt as strong as Alpha 2, but it's still one of the best and competitive styles that produced formidable fighters from back in the day. it's a unique and fun style to face, or even use yourself. I'm a K-Groove main too.
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#7  June 09, 2021, 06:52:29 PM
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We went thru this so many times...

POTS =/= CvS2.
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#8  June 10, 2021, 03:45:41 AM
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Well, you can fix it. Just edit it. You might not feel its your job or anything, but if POTs style creators don't agree with your game balance concept you can either just change it or live with the standard. I don't think a collective commitment like youre talking about is going to happen unless proofs of concept are already out there.
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#9  June 10, 2021, 08:02:05 AM
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There's plenty of proof that a longer custom combo duration is not only more effective but it also allows more types of matchups to be met, instead of having custom combos feel like a side gig, and giving it the potential spotlight/equality.... it could be as "formidable" as doing regular supers. But yeah, the best I can only do is pitch the idea up for debate...... and hopefully influence the design choice. Tho just an idea, I can only give my opinion at best! So, nothing more or less I could say. At very best, worth a seldom discussion.
Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 09:20:27 AM by extravagant
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#10  June 10, 2021, 06:29:26 PM
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But your proof applies to a very specific closed environment, that being CVS2. The issue is that POTS style is just a style and not a fully realized game. We've established POTS characters (namely Geese) would have to undergo significant balance changes to accommodate a stronger custom combo. We would need to understand how POTS style characters interact with eachother in a closed system to judge whether or not the mechanic is too weak or too strong. I like how KC talks about how his characters interact with other characters in the style for this reason, and its why im hoping JMM's fullgame is realized so we can get a real handle on how the style would work as a game.

Rather than judging POTS characters as their own system, you're coming at it from the context of MUGEN tournament that mixes a bunch of disparate gameplay styles. Yeah, I agree a longer custom combo would probably help a POTS style character versus an A groove CVS2 character. Cause they're not CVS2 characters, thats the point. And it would certainly help them against BBTAG characters, which I saw in your tournament (and cannot understand why they're even allowed, but thats another discussion.) However, thats a totally different situation as to whether not the CC mode is worth using on its own merits.
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#11  June 10, 2021, 07:46:07 PM
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Alright let's treat it like a discussion.

Right now CC lasts 3 seconds (180 ticks). Changing it to last 8 seconds and to use 3 bars its very easy. The problem is how changing that interacts with POTS dampener.
https://streamable.com/xvs1f7
 :???:
Pretty badly.

Now, the question is:

What good is a custom combo if it's only 5 seconds long?
This is what you can do with my Angel, 3 seconds of CC, and 2 extra bars. Its her most damaging combo outside of connecting the otg lvl 3, and it probably can be better if you optimize distance to finish the string with a point blank reppun kamui (which I can't do for shit)
https://streamable.com/qgjo6d

This is what you can do with my Rugal and 3 seconds of CC.
https://streamable.com/wnamkj

Angel and Rugal can both do stuff like this because I designed around CC lasting 3 seconds and spending 1 bar. Is this superior to the damage output A-Groove characters from CvS2? Of course not. Is POTS style suppose to be 1:1 with CvS2? Of course not.

As of right now, Custom Combo can be an alternative to super canceling that rewards better execution with a bit more damage. Its very cohesive and the problem is not on the mechanic itself, its on how creators design around it.

I'm fine with you bringing this up because having a discussion is free but I feel that your only real argument is "CvS2 does it this way hence its better". Your fighters not finding it rewarding might be related to them not exploring the mechanic enough. Or personal preference. Or maybe they are playing varo_hades characters, dunno. If they are coming from CvS2 and they feel bummed about CC being different they can play Waru's CvS2 characters.

Now this part irks me:

However, if every POTS creator out there decided to collectively commit to this change including rebalancing the damage, the light at the end of the tunnel is much brighter, more fun, and rewarding for CCs.
It really starts to sound like the time you went on and on about jman and me adding c groove lvl 2 super canceling. You often times make the assertion of something being better by being closer to CvS2. It's no different to when you try to apply CvS2 hitbox design on characters from games that play nothing like CvS2. There's games where whiff punishing is less of a thing, and you know this, you are not dumb.

We all get it, you love CvS2 and you like accuracy. I like accuracy too. But why can't you accept that POTS is not CvS2? It might be a bit janky on the edges and it might be overloaded with mechanics, but CvS2 is not the prime example balance either lol.

We can all coexist in MUGEN.
CvS2 homies get 80% shosho, roll canceling and Sagat's cr.HP.
Anime homies rush people down with roman cancels until they cry.... Or until they burst.
Very skillful Marvel players can spam Viper Beam and pushblock every time... Until they face Touma which literally destroys their only braincell.
And we POTS fellas get chunky meterless/1 bar BnBs and our humble 3 seconds of Custom Combo.

We are all happy in the end haha. Except those Cable players, they must hate themselves.
Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
#12  June 10, 2021, 08:04:08 PM
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Re: POTS chars Custom Combos should absolutely use full meter, not 1 bar
New #13  June 18, 2021, 06:29:07 AM
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Alright let's treat it like a discussion.

Now this part irks me:

It really starts to sound like the time you went on and on about jman and me adding c groove lvl 2 super canceling. You often times make the assertion of something being better by being closer to CvS2. It's no different to when you try to apply CvS2 hitbox design on characters from games that play nothing like CvS2. There's games where whiff punishing is less of a thing, and you know this, you are not dumb.

We all get it, you love CvS2 and you like accuracy. I like accuracy too. We can all coexist in MUGEN.

Yeah, I understand that and I don't dispute that at all. All I can do is just pitch ideas and see what sticks.

Yeah, I agree a longer custom combo would probably help a POTS style character versus an A groove CVS2 character. And it would certainly help them against BBTAG characters

In this scenario, pitching the idea of an extended CC timer was purely just inspired off just POTS system by itself, and I had not thought about comparing it how it clashes with other MUGEN stuff. I was not thinking about bbtag or other things in mind.

Though it is a bummer to see CCs so short. It's shorter than A-groove, V-izm, and genei jinn all combined. From previous Capcom standards, it seems noticeably different. For players who come from a CC background, (not just CvS2), this will seem like a very foreign concept to them. I'm not talking about me, I'm not even a CC type guy.

In any case, the case has been decided so that's about all I think I could say for now

Edit: I heard the system POTS uses was based on Excel from SF EX, is that true?? if so, it's different from CCs i believe


Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 06:12:02 AM by extravagant