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Mickey O'Neil (Read 2199 times)

Started by CpnCrossfader, October 20, 2021, 02:22:08 PM
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Mickey O'Neil
#1  October 20, 2021, 02:22:08 PM
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Back with another original pop culture creation, I give you....
Mickey "One Punch" O'Neil, Brad Pitt's bare-knuckle boxer from the movie Snatch.





This is a very simple fun character, designed to play like an 'inside' fighter (very close and in your face).
He has been created in a unique simplified style- he has a variety of fast punches, but the kick buttons instead perform a random dodge/weave, which makes you unhittable (or partially unhittable) for a few frames.

There are currently only a few special moves. I may add to these, but the intention is for this character to be a straightforward boxer.
QCF + a = Barrel Pummel
QCF + b = Speedball
x+a = Dag helper

DOWNLOAD

Updates:
21/10/21
Added generic crouch attack.
Completely renovated all hitboxes.
Removed placeholder animations and some redundant sprites. Placeholder sprites do still remain, but do not affect character at all.

26/10/21
Added basic sounds.
Added new rush upper move- QCF + c
Amended block damage to attacks.
Slightly increased jump height.
Removed hitboxes from some frames in forward dash to allow dodge.
Altered crouch punch sprite (slightly lowered attack)
Added crouch uppercut (x/y/z)
Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 10:32:09 PM by CpnCrossfader
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#2  October 21, 2021, 12:32:34 AM
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First things first. Any particular reason why the character sprites of the character are in the folder? While I'm at it, why there's so many cns files unrelated to the character?

And second, is this supposed to be a serious character or is the rushed feel intentional?
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#3  October 21, 2021, 12:40:25 AM
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I actually forgot my working files were still in the folder. If you are short on disk space, please remove them. Otherwise, they will cause you no harm- they are just extra unneeded files. I will update that though when I can, thanks.

The second part looks like you are just trying to be rude.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#4  October 21, 2021, 12:45:07 AM
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The second part is to check whether I should bother with feedback. Because quite frankly, as it is right now this character feels very unfinished.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#5  October 21, 2021, 01:05:38 AM
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OK, I've now removed the spare dev files in the original link- thanks for pointing it out.


I'm open to any genuine (non-subjective, non-arbitrary) feedback for bugs I might have missed. Going off your general tone it feels like you kind of intend to offend.
Just on the chance that you weren't being passive aggressive though, in the original post before the link you clicked to download, I said that it's a simple boxing character with a limited moveset which I might expand upon, but for now, it is finished.

I guess to summarise, if you have bugs or dev feedback- please share. If you simply don't like the character or were trolling, I'd rather you didn't.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#6  October 21, 2021, 01:16:00 AM
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While I never gave feed back on previous works (mostly because I forgot about my MFG Account for some time.) I've tested all your works since you released the The Mandalorian

You've certainly improved but there's still ways to go honestly, and trying him I found a bunch of issues

-Blatant Terry edits, it's very clear you took Terry's body then edited Mickey on top.
-filler, lots of it, barely any of the content is actually used, and a majority of it is just Terry's sprites.
-horrible hitboxing, a lot of animations have the hitbox EXTEND PAST him, meaning if people touch him from behind they also get hurt.
-complete silence aside from speaking
-only 312 sprites are actually used
-Horrible portrait, it's nowhere near the correct size, and is too small
-no sprite cropping

I don't understand why there's 10 entire cns files that are not used at all.
the AI doesn't seem well coded at all either, and tends to break out of hitstates during a combo, meaning he will be able to dodge.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#7  October 21, 2021, 01:23:54 AM
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Thanks for testing both this file and my other creations. They are fair points.
-Apologies, I meant to credit the Terry edit- it's actually an indirect edit, from a self-portrait character I made; some of the sprites were left in from the second character as placeholders for expansion but are not referenced by any commands. Also, I believe the style is completely different from Terry. It is basically just his legs now.
-The hitbox thing was a quickfix I did as I noticed that because he is often very close to the opponent, sometime punches were going past and not hitting. It should clearly not be possible to hit BACKWARDS though, I'll certainly review this.
-The sound thing needs attention- thanks for pointing out.
-I am very much a noob when it comes to AI. This is my weakest area.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#8  October 21, 2021, 01:42:48 AM
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You can have a simple character and still be solid.

- Normals are extremely limited. He doesn't even have a crouching normal.
- Actually, pretty much everything about him is limited. He can't actually execute his plan of getting in close because he doesn't have a reliable way to actually do so. He's very easy to zone out and even if he gets close, he doesn't have the tools to stay close. I know you said, he was simple, but this is way too simple. It's why I said he feels unfinished.
- The hitboxes need to be looked at again and revised, because they're not well made.
- His dodge shouldn't be random at all. I would recommend you look at how dodges are made in other games(Like in KOF). While we're are at it, they should have a hurtbox regardless, but you apply nohitby for it(except for throws).
- Strongly advice you look at other boxer characters. For example, he could have a weave move that moves him forward while ducking under projectiles.
- AI should be very last thing you do.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#9  October 21, 2021, 02:25:35 AM
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Well Darkflare, most of these points ARE subjective, but I appreciate you not being rude this time and I am at the very least willing to consider your suggestions.

I've already acknowledged the hitbox thing above, but I honestly think most of the other stuff is personal preference; "Dodge shouldn't be random" as an example. It is the animation which is random, but the move is uniform (with a few frames variance). This is one of my signature design elements from a lot of my original characters- a pool of similar animations which it selects from randomly to keep things fresh.
"No way of getting close" as another- you can use the dash to move quickly in and out. Other than this I don't think anything else is required.
The boxer 'advice' feels patronising.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#10  October 21, 2021, 10:20:41 AM
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So I wanted to double check a few things, but when I tried redownloading it turns out you accidentally erased the .sff file as well.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#11  October 21, 2021, 11:03:38 AM
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    • UK
Thanks for letting me know.
I've re-added and now renovated all hitboxes on every animation. I also removed most of the placeholder animations and some of the placeholder sprites, although I still maintain that this did not affect the character at all and would have negligible affect on file sizes.
I added a generic crouch attack based on your other feedback.
Still need to revisit sound, and also maybe I'll look at AI at some point, but this not my forte!
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#12  October 21, 2021, 11:22:54 AM
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I strongly recommend you don't bother with AI at all, until the character is more complete.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#13  October 21, 2021, 11:48:48 AM
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Well I won't rule it out, however I will reiterate that at the moment I have no plans to add any extra moves to the character. So sound-mapping and any future bug fixing aside, the character is complete.

Eesh, tough crowd..  :jackie:
I'll happily give you a refund!
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#14  October 26, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
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    • UK
Somebody has now made me aware of a video that Darkflare has posted on youtube in the last few days further criticising the character.
I have watched it, and to be fair, it actually has a few good points of feedback.

I hadn't noticed that the block damage was missing- this is now fixed.
I have also added another (basic) special attack; a rush upper, in the style of Balrog. It can be performed with QCF+c.
Also, I finally got around to adding some sound.

In case Darkflare reads this: In response to some of the other points of critique- The low jump, lack of projectiles, simple attacks (but varied random animations), quick movement... these are all in theme with the subject base material. He is meant to be a simple boxer who is all about speed and getting in close. I don't want him to have a projectile attack or flying jump or even a throw as it doesn't really suit the film character. The throw might be an exception, I will think on this.
You can avoid projectiles by using a dodge. These are intended to be random to add variety (also, some are hittable low). You cannot advance while you are dodging- this is also by design to balance against the fast movement and dashes.
A lot of the things that you claim are "wrong", are intentional to provide balance according to my concept of the character.
I honestly don't think you will ever like this character, but the good news is that there are many many other fine characters out there by other people that you can enjoy. You probably should just move on.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#15  October 26, 2021, 11:46:28 AM
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I only did that video for myself for the sake of documenting what I could find. Video for those interested
With that said, the video is only useful to you if you take the WHOLE thing and not cherry pick what's convenient. Additionally, you misinterpreted a few things.

First of, I never said to add a projectile. The boxing girl character I used in the video only has Cody's criminal upper as the closest thing to a projectile. It is OK for a character especially one meant to be close range, to lack a projectile. In exchange, they must be able to have a way to deal with an opponent's projectiles which Mickey severely lacks a way to do so. He cannot jump over projectiles and his only option besides blocking is to dodge. Except, the dodge can be used against him with a slow projectile. These usually give enough time for the opponent to follow up behind them and he can just punish Mickey as he comes out of dodge. It is very easy to just zone out Mickey.

Mickey's fast walk speed is extremely strong allowing him to more easily shimmy around the opponent. While I understand this is the intent of the character, there are better ways to do this. I've looked at other Boxing characters in FG(Balrog, Dudley, Vanessa, Akihiko) and they all have quick dashes instead including one that goes forward and low profiles through most projectiles. Vanessa and Akihiko even have a move where they weave in place and their upper body is completely invincible which they can cancel into other attacks.

The low jump does a lot more harm than good. Seriously, he should at least be able to clear over projectiles.

Dodge being random is just a bad idea, especially if you're just going to completely disregard adding CLSN boxes to it(Which you should ALWAYS do[Use no hitby for this]). My explanation for dodge in the video wasn't a suggestion, it's how every single (good) fighting games does dodges. In fact, you should actually avoid making moves random(With very special exceptions) so your character can remain consistent which is VERY important.

Adding block damage doesn't solve the problem. He still lacks lows and overheads, so while the opponent can't guard forever due to chip, they still don't have to worry about their defense being completely penetrated. And yes, you should also add a throw.

Since you're going for 3 attack buttons, I suggest just going with Light, Medium and Heavy and doing the same for his jumping and crouching attacks.

That animation he does when he gets up from being knocked down should either be removed or add CLSN boxes to it and allow Mickey to cancel it with literally any action.


Everything I'm saying here and criticizing has a very good reason for me doing so. I am not saying it to make your character "suit my wants". Look up how other boxing characters are done in fighting games and study how they work. You have a lot of work to do here and the foundation you have here is nowhere near solid.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#16  October 26, 2021, 04:32:22 PM
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    • UK
Look, I'm about to stop replying to these messages.
You are clearly very knowledgeable about mugen character creation, I don't doubt this, and I want to be respectful- I haven't seen your work but you sound like a pro...  but you need to stop just saying "___ is a very bad idea" or "____ should be done this way" or marking things bold without giving any solid reason other than you have seen other characters do it. If you can give me a good reason to fix something I will likely look at it, but it's totally ok to have different styles or opinions. You literally say you have "a very good reason", then don't share it.
I don't really appreciate you posting critique videos, which is mostly redundant now anyway after the last update, but that's totally your prerogative.

Point taken about the projectile weakness, it's a dirty tactic but a valid point, maybe I will address that sometime soon by making the dash unhittable, although I don't want to over-power that too much. This is now amended by both increasing the jump slightly, and removing boxes from the dash.

I want to clarify about the 3 attack buttons. They are already light, medium and heavy, but with a randomised animation picked from a different subset for each type of attack. I think I already mentioned, but this is one of my signature styles that I like to include. You just saying "animations shouldn't be random" isn't going to change my mind on this! If there is a genuine reason, I will reluctantly consider it.
The randomised dodge as well. It's intentional and it keeps things fresh. The animations are roughly the same length and the hitboxes are similar.

Regarding low/overhead, the crouch punch is a low attack. The heavy uppercut is an above head attack, but granted, it is a random 1 in 3 chance. Making a dedicated higher attack would be a good idea- noted.  The consistent uppercut is now added to crouch x/y/z, and the crouch a/b/c is slightly lowered.

The getting up ("so that's the kind of fight it's gonna be.") is deliberately unhittable- it's a short animation while he gets his breath from getting up the first time. I don't want to allow a cancel. It's all about context- the character is based on a film character. I want this to balance making it fun with remaining faithful to the inspiration.


I also maintain that if you think the character is nowhere near solid that you just move on as at this point I really don't think it will ever meet your expectations.
I do aspire to improve, and I also like knowing that people were enjoying using my original content in their games, but ultimately I am working to my own remit to fit him into my own game, and then sharing it, rather than creating/adjusting a character to a stranger's specifications or whims. Most of your comments are still entirely subjective.
Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 10:43:00 PM by CpnCrossfader
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#17  October 27, 2021, 03:29:28 AM
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  • Occultist Psychic
  • Outsider Spectacle
    • USA
It's very clear that you don't want to accept the criticism that DarkFlare laid out for you, it's meant to improve your works.

and honestly if you're going to keep turning it down, you'll never improve.
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#18  October 27, 2021, 03:53:28 AM
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I wouldn't say that though because he’s been fixing some of the stuff DF pointed out

I’ve seen a few of Crossfader’s releases and this is the first time to my knowledge someone with expertise took the time to actually give him constructive gameplay feedback. The feedback reminds me of the feedback Cybaster used to give, which was very informative but also very direct.

It looks like he probably interpreted the motive behind that video wrong
Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 03:57:51 AM by dakidbanks
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#19  October 27, 2021, 09:31:24 AM
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I have been cherry picking the actual bugs and fixing them, and I have been trying to defend myself against the personal opinions that I disagree with.
I've honestly had enough though. It's the language and sense of entitlement that I dislike. If someone shares bugs that's great, I will correct them. If someone dislikes something and shares their opinion in a polite way, or even just a non-rude way, I will entertain them and consider them. I have even compromised on several in this specific thread.

Believe it or not this is the 14th piece of (entirely original) content I've shared on here. My personal highlight was when the Mandalorian was mentioned in the Character of the month nominations.
This will be my last character. Why would I want to post any future work up if it just gets this response? I don't enjoy these exchanges.

Good luck to all- keep up the good work with all the fantastic content on here. Please feel free to edit or use any of my content for your own creations if you wish.
Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 10:08:04 AM by CpnCrossfader
Re: Mickey O'Neil
#20  October 27, 2021, 09:52:25 AM
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Honestly I agree with Cpn on this, as it seems he is focusing on movie authenticity rather than traditional arcade fighter standards. It's something sharp and different, and very sorry you got fed up Cpn, thank you for all your work. It was really nice to see film characters in Mugen with a really charming homemade feel and out there style.