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The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore? (Read 34813 times)

Started by OMEGAPSYCHO, January 10, 2016, 05:34:32 PM
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The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#1  January 10, 2016, 05:34:32 PM
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You see guys, I was looking for some videos about mugen fights in Youtube and I found this:


A nasty p***e of s**t stolen Shao Kahn, MY SHAO KAHN VERSION FOR WINMUGEN!. (Yes, It was released to the public)

I have been present at the Mugen scene for 15 years and I remember that this kind of things were much less tolerated.
I'm not trying to persecute anyone, I understand that sometimes it is inevitable but I have a question for you all:
The Mugen scene has become so small that currently nobody cares anymore?. I remember the amount of downloads of my first characters it counts in thousands the first week of its release and now are only a few hundred. As I said earlier, I will be creating projects for Mugen until I only left myself, but I don't feel the same feedback as before; when a mugen project is releasded I receive some public congratulations (and that is appreciated) but the community no longer ask for more in the same way as before; I have released characters with annoying glitches and no one takes the time to report it except for some loyal fans, the people seems to prefer modify themselves, even I make a lot of updates for my projects but the people keep uploading videos of obsolete versions of my characters.

Perhaps in the near future we will see a "CVS2 Rugal by Warusaki modified by Ahuron"? or "Morrigan by P.O.T.S. remade by MASA, adapted to Winmugen by FutanaDeTal"? or "Evil Dragon Claw God version 2.0 Remix?

This breaks my heart. 
Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 05:40:32 PM by OMEGAPSYCHO
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#2  January 10, 2016, 06:13:47 PM
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If it's online, people will download it and do whatever they want with it. That includes editing characters for themselves, showing old versions... what can you do about it?

Times change.

A nasty p***e of s**t stole Shao Kahn, MY SHAO KAHN VERSION FOR WINMUGEN! (Yes, it was released to the public)
Contradiction.

Perhaps in the near future we will see a "CVS2 Rugal by Warusaki modified by Ahuron"? Or "Morrigan by P.O.T.S. remade by MASA, adapted to Winmugen by FutanaDeTal"? or "Evil Dragon Claw God version 2.0 Remix?
I've answered you before... although those may never happen.

In any case, people know who the original creator is. If they're very interested in your work, they'll mind enough to give you some feedback.
Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:23:35 PM by Sin-

lui

Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#3  January 10, 2016, 06:18:13 PM
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wow dude, the salt is real. we're back in 2003 folks!

he edited your shao kahn, so? i personally love your work, but what are you going to do about people editing your shit? your original version is still available, why cry about it? you can't upload something to the public without expecting someone to fiddle with it. there is no "honor code" wtf, people just say that when they don't want their stuff edited, which is understandable, but still fucking stupid. if someone edits your stuff, you can't do anything about it, thats just how life works online, im not one to support stealing, but cmon now this is mugen, stop treating it like an actual job.

im tired of people making threads complaining about small shit like this.
Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:23:37 PM by walruslui
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#4  January 10, 2016, 06:32:34 PM
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this has nothing to do with mugen's current state or the community becoming smaller or people not caring, people have been editing other people's shit since day one
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#5  January 10, 2016, 06:41:49 PM
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"Perhaps in the near future we will see a "CVS2 Rugal by Warusaki modified by Ahuron"? or "Morrigan by P.O.T.S. remade by MASA, adapted to Winmugen by FutanaDeTal"? or "Evil Dragon Claw God version 2.0 Remix?"


Improvements and different versions are a good thing in my book.
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#6  January 10, 2016, 06:44:34 PM
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I would love to see Warusaki's CvS2Rugal modified by Ahuron. He'd probably come up with some really cool stuff.

And it's not like anything else is being done with it.
Oh, why must I tell 'em again?
What must I tell 'em, my friend?
That we are born into sin
And we are worshiping murderers
Nothing but evil duplicitous men
I know you heard of 'em all
We should just murder 'em all
We should just murder and ball
We dance on the ruins we looting from all of they palace's walls
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#7  January 10, 2016, 07:12:23 PM
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The community is smaller because fighters were even a niche in the 90s and early 2000s. Now sprite based fighters are even more of a niche. Heck, Mortal Kombat Trilogy was the last 2d MK game and it was released in 1996. That was 20 years ago! Most MK players now probably can't stand those old games due to their gameplay and graphics.

We grew up in that time so it seems odd that there isn't as much interest now. You're not going to find a lot of people nowthat want to get into an engine that is primarily used with lo res game sprites from before they were born!

Looking at that time gap it's amazing how many ppl are still here all together!
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#8  January 10, 2016, 07:32:25 PM
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wow dude, the salt is real. we're back in 2003 folks!

he edited your shao kahn, so? i personally love your work, but what are you going to do about people editing your shit? your original version is still available, why cry about it? you can't upload something to the public without expecting someone to fiddle with it. there is no "honor code" wtf, people just say that when they don't want their stuff edited, which is understandable, but still fucking stupid. if someone edits your stuff, you can't do anything about it, thats just how life works online, im not one to support stealing, but cmon now this is mugen, stop treating it like an actual job.

im tired of people making threads complaining about small shit like this.
So much wrong with this post it stings. I couldn't be that big of a dick if I tried.

Just because you say he shouldn't care what people do to his work doesn't make it right.
Quote
stop treating it like an actual job
He isn't, if you worked in the industry you'd see he's treating it like more of a hobby, in fact.

I could pull your whole thing apart into pieces and explain what wrong with your view on this and why he isn't wrong, despite his over reaction. But I'm not bored enough at the moment. :|
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#9  January 10, 2016, 07:38:57 PM
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Look, I understand. Is not possible prevent this. That's not the point. Is not about "authorship" is about time, money and effort put it in a project.
I can remember that Shao Kahn took me 2 months of work, a lot of coffee and a pain in my back for being much time sitted.
Currently I am creating the entire roster from MK, and this kind of things really takes away from me the desire to do it. I feel like a ghost working for anyone. That's why I refuse to include in my own mugen roster stolen chars, because i know what are behind a project. That is the "honor code" what I reffer, and if you don't care about it, I suggest politely that you evaluate other aspects of your personal life because surely this belief is reflected and will not bring anything good for you my friend.
Again, not trying to persecute anyone, but how would you feel if you make a project for school and an idiot take your work, show it as own and have a good grade for it?, that's the point of all this.

And why I cry about it?, because maybe I'll can't continue doing this:

And as I said, "That breaks my heart", because programming in mugen is a lot of fun; this situation make it painful. That's why I take seriously.
We grew up in that time so it seems odd that there isn't as much interest now. You're not going to find a lot of people nowthat want to get into an engine that is primarily used with lo res game sprites from before they were born!

Looking at that time gap it's amazing how many ppl are still here all together!
That's correct, Is not supposed to left only true fans?, Why are there are still people who don't understand that Mugen was the childhood dream of many like me and make it happen requires a lot of effort?. Again, for me, programming in mugen is a lot of fun; this situation make it painful. That's why I take seriously.
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#10  January 10, 2016, 07:42:40 PM
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So... is it not receiving credit that bothers you?
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#11  January 10, 2016, 07:44:14 PM
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It's sad really. People are gonna change things and you can't really do a thing about it but observe what they do. Not everyone respects closed source.

It's understandable if you wanna stop with MUGEN because of this. I've heard of plenty of Authors who did that for the very same reason.
Spoiler: Works In Progress (click to see content)
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#12  January 10, 2016, 08:14:36 PM
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I'm afraid this won't sound encouraging but if I didn't want to risk having my homework stolen I'd keep it to myself. People were never honorable about MUGEN even way back when "creator ethics" were enforced on MUGEN forums.



It's useless to expect your content to be honored. Sorry dude, you've only set yourself up to be disappointed.

it's because they are already content with what they have done, mugen is not a paying job so as long as the charcter works for a creator that's enough; one's persons crouching while running is another person's change it to pots style.

lui

Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#13  January 10, 2016, 08:43:22 PM
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unless you don't upload anything to a public degree and only share private, there is NO guarantee that somebody won't edit it. it isn't stealing if its out in the open for anyone to look at, sheesh.

im not saying that someone just editing your work without permission is a good thing, its a dick move and shouldnt be how things work, but its just how the free internet is, so it WILL happen, you can't really police stuff like this when you have no control once it's out in the open.

look, alot of people already love your work, and if someone edits it people will still tell its yours since you're a fantastic coder. it's alright to feel a bit bothered by it but you can't expect everyone to go with the whole honrific code thing, it IS the internet after all. so if you're gonna quit and not continue something since one little youtuber or something edited it, then that's your own doing, you can't blame other people that edits your stuff because they never forced you to quit.
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#14  January 10, 2016, 09:06:00 PM
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There's people who still care about creations, Omegapsycho.

Personally, I do because I played MK since I was a child, and it's nice to see that (that and you made one of my favorite bosses from Castlevania, Legion); it also helps you're offering a different content than most people release.

There's people who will edit a creator's work regardless if it is open source or not.

I personally watched the video and I fail to see what's the problem there. That Shao Kahn still plays in the SAME way as you coded it. Couldn't you consider that it was just a simple change with the palettes and the "evil" addition to his name was simply that? Because seeing the AI operate, that was Shao Kahn's regular way to play. Pay close attention to the video and you'll notice there's no actual change from the Shao Kahn you released years ago. I would have been a problem if they "released it" as if it were theirs, but it's not the case.

In spanish: Lo siento, Omegapsycho, pero te fuiste con la finta.

That "code of honor" you seek can only be found in the Japanese community, you won't find it in the western community, I'm afraid.

wow dude, the salt is real. we're back in 2003 folks!

he edited your shao kahn, so? i personally love your work, but what are you going to do about people editing your shit? your original version is still available, why cry about it? you can't upload something to the public without expecting someone to fiddle with it. there is no "honor code" wtf, people just say that when they don't want their stuff edited, which is understandable, but still fucking stupid. if someone edits your stuff, you can't do anything about it, thats just how life works online, im not one to support stealing, but cmon now this is mugen, stop treating it like an actual job.

im tired of people making threads complaining about small shit like this.

You're not helping with your attitude either.
PotS said:
That they don't just restrict themselves to my style.

Fact.
Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 09:10:06 PM by ティンカーベル
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#15  January 10, 2016, 09:20:03 PM
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And it's not like anything else is being done with it.
I know this may not be an applicable answer, but seriously.. It's amazing that as many of you do dedicate as much time as you do. I mean people are still making sprites & doing commissions for this stuff in 2016. The way things are now "omg dem graphics" it's no surprise only those dedicated fans are still around. Mugen imo has always been "The freedom to change". If you aren't making OCs aren't we all doing what you speak of? Editing? You didn't create those MK characters? Or the concepts entirely?

I could pull your whole thing apart into pieces and explain what wrong with your view on this and why he isn't wrong, despite his over reaction. But I'm not bored enough at the moment. :|
Yes. Man Yes.

Look, I understand. Is not possible prevent this. That's not the point. Is not about "authorship" is about time, money and effort put it in a project.
I can remember that Shao Kahn took me 2 months of work, a lot of coffee and a pain in my back for being much time sitted.
Currently I am creating the entire roster from MK, and this kind of things really takes away from me the desire to do it. I feel like a ghost working for anyone. That's why I refuse to include in my own mugen roster stolen chars, because i know what are behind a project. That is the "honor code" what I reffer, and if you don't care about it, I suggest politely that you evaluate other aspects of your personal life because surely this belief is reflected and will not bring anything good for you my friend.
Again, not trying to persecute anyone, but how would you feel if you make a project for school and an idiot take your work, show it as own and have a good grade for it?, that's the point of all this.

And why I cry about it?, because maybe I'll can't continue doing this:

And as I said, "That breaks my heart", because programming in mugen is a lot of fun; this situation make it painful. That's why I take seriously.
We grew up in that time so it seems odd that there isn't as much interest now. You're not going to find a lot of people nowthat want to get into an engine that is primarily used with lo res game sprites from before they were born!

Looking at that time gap it's amazing how many ppl are still here all together!
That's correct, Is not supposed to left only true fans?, Why are there are still people who don't understand that Mugen was the childhood dream of many like me and make it happen requires a lot of effort?. Again, for me, programming in mugen is a lot of fun; this situation make it painful. That's why I take seriously.
You know.. At times I would feel the same.. To go the private route because someone said something we don't agree with, or we feel as though no one appreciates what we do.. Only one losing is ourselves. Because many of us do this to allow others to bask in nostalgia & our love for it. I myself have always just wanted to gossip about these old games & talk about how great they were & still are. The thing for me that you said that stands out above all... "It's Fun" that's all it took for me to completely disregard anything else. More so than any form of recognition... Just knowing people still enjoy mugen is enough for me. I do things for myself first & others second. I enjoy what I do. I am my biggest fan. I can only disappoint myself. Now I understand this may not be the same for you, but... Why else would you be doing this? Upon reading everything you said though I can truly appreciate what you do & where you are coming from. There are actually those that can only do something if they are given praise for it. They don't enjoy making the characters they do, hell they probably don't even have fun doing it anymore. It becomes a chore and they truly do it because they want to be acknowledged for the one that did it.. Now that is shameless to me.. There will always be those that complain,  those that  actually love it, and there will always be those that just hit the download button. Idk why, but the state of things being people are less likely to express themselves openly, or rather don't share the same sentiment as we do. It sucks, but that is the reality. There are so many things I could get into & perhaps I missed the point on a few things, but at the end of the day.. Just as I had to learn.. This is a hobby and hobbies aren't hobbies if "we" aren't you know enjoying them.
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#16  January 10, 2016, 09:50:11 PM
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This is a story from 1 fighting game fan to another. I'll try not to wall -o- text but I can't guarantee it =p

I'm 34 years old. I was a teen when SF2 and MK came out. In fact Mortal Kombat 1 was my 1st fighting game on SNES (we didn't have an arcade scene here). I was instantly hooked. From then on Fighting games became my absolute favorite games.

I found MUGEN in 2001 soon after MFG was started. Back before it even had a forum and was just a site to download characters. It had a shout box and that's how I communicated with people. I came in talking about wanting to make a Darkstalkers vs Street Fighter and of course a full game with my comic characters! I was told to be sure to not use anyone else's works etc etc.

Back then it took months to rip a whole character. Some emulators didn't even have ways to remove back grounds and you had to manually perform every frame of animation.

I spent forever ripping sprites. Finally me, Joram, and JJWE worked together in IIRC and learned how to use artmoney to rip sprites. By then the whole "don't use anything from others" thing was really going strong. One of the biggest problems I've had finishing stuff is that I want to help others finish stuff as well. I want the process of making characters to be as simple as possible. I don't WANT other people to have to start from scratch every time they wish to make their dream game.

I began ripping sprites in bulk with artmoney so that everyone, including myself, could have easy access to save time.

I feel by now we should have accurate bases that people can grab and start editing how they choose. I left MUGEN in 2006 for several years to make my webcomic. Mostly because of the hostility and politics of the vocal "don't steal" crowd.

I came back about 2 years ago. Tried to balance MUGEN and webcomic. Webcomic got my main focus. Due to time because of having a baby I decided MUGEN was the easier hobby to juggle and came back a few months ago in full force.

So now I'm coding a lot behind the scenes to prepare a great release and to learn. I can't teach people coding if I don't know it well enough myself!

 I want you to know I still respect "creator's rights". I have never used anything without permission or wasn't open source. I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean I don't understand it.

But this is a hobby and a game. My views on this can be different than you or anyone else's. But my view is that this isn't similar to stealing homework. And then you have people that don't think of it as anything at all more than a way to make characters in games. For those this conversation doesn't even cross their mind. Like when I 1st started.

And this forum is also built on this idea more. We encourage new users to learn by editing. Once they become more engaged in the community they begin to learn about the "honor code" and as such can choose to respect it or ignore it. Most of the time they fall under the "giving credit to the person that helped them is good enough". Which we expect people that edit to do as well.

I'm not trying to change your mind or views. I just want you to see that people have different views on this.
I think helping others achieve their dream in this hobby is as important as my own work. People like us actually enjoy doing all this the long hard way. But you mention all the time it takes. Does it not feel nice to shave that time from someone else?

As a community we should work together I feel.
If you still get upset how others use your work to bring enjoyment that's okay too. I still understand the view. All I can do then is hope you can see that it's a silly reason to stop doing what you enjoy to do. But in the end if you can't let it go and it bothers you this much your only choice is to stop releasing your works. IMO that'd be the most tragic outcome. That ends new enjoyment for everyone. Unless you're one of those lucky people that can enjoy coding chars just for yourself in private in your isolation bubble. Or maybe you have a lot of people that you play MUGEN with. That could help too.

Anyway, didn't mean to get so wordy. Just wanted to reach out fighting game fan to fighting game fan.
I hope you keep creating either way!
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#17  January 10, 2016, 10:19:16 PM
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unless you don't upload anything to a public degree and only share private, there is NO guarantee that somebody won't edit it. it isn't stealing if its out in the open for anyone to look at, sheesh.

im not saying that someone just editing your work without permission is a good thing, its a dick move and shouldnt be how things work, but its just how the free internet is, so it WILL happen, you can't really police stuff like this when you have no control once it's out in the open.

look, alot of people already love your work, and if someone edits it people will still tell its yours since you're a fantastic coder. it's alright to feel a bit bothered by it but you can't expect everyone to go with the whole honrific code thing, it IS the internet after all. so if you're gonna quit and not continue something since one little youtuber or something edited it, then that's your own doing, you can't blame other people that edits your stuff because they never forced you to quit.
You know.. At times I would feel the same.. To go the private route because someone said something we don't agree with, or we feel as though no one appreciates what we do.. Only one losing is ourselves. Because many of us do this to allow others to bask in nostalgia & our love for it. I myself have always just wanted to gossip about these old games & talk about how great they were & still are. The thing for me that you said that stands out above all... "It's Fun" that's all it took for me to completely disregard anything else. More so than any form of recognition... Just knowing people still enjoy mugen is enough for me. I do things for myself first & others second. I enjoy what I do. I am my biggest fan. I can only disappoint myself. Now I understand this may not be the same for you, but... Why else would you be doing this? Upon reading everything you said though I can truly appreciate what you do & where you are coming from. There are actually those that can only do something if they are given praise for it. They don't enjoy making the characters they do, hell they probably don't even have fun doing it anymore. It becomes a chore and they truly do it because they want to be acknowledged for the one that did it.. Now that is shameless to me.. There will always be those that complain,  those that  actually love it, and there will always be those that just hit the download button. Idk why, but the state of things being people are less likely to express themselves openly, or rather don't share the same sentiment as we do. It sucks, but that is the reality. There are so many things I could get into & perhaps I missed the point on a few things, but at the end of the day.. Just as I had to learn.. This is a hobby and hobbies aren't hobbies if "we" aren't you know enjoying them.
I understand well what you both say, and deeply thinking about it, is not the video or the character that bothers me; it's just that I have some questions as this:

Am I making the same mistake?
I don't win a single coin doing this and maybe Ed Boon also bothers this kind of thing; that is why we included the Netherrealm and Warner Brothers logos on the latest chars, as I said, is not about authorship, is about respect for the other people work and that's when I remember because I do this:
Because nobody was doing it and I want it.

Another question:
Really we need a policeman to regulate the morals of the people?
I'm clear that if the society is still in diapers in matters of moral values. Everyone wants quality but does nothing to make it happend, that's the reality and I can't change it but that's brings me to my last question for you, and this seems to be the focus of my topic:

Really worth that much I do my best in something that eventually people will end up doing it for me?, If I leave the scene Mugen you think it stops to exist MK characters and other suff I do?, Of course not, it's as simple as taking my code and make a new character; same thing is happening with Warusaki and POTS characters and if someone not agree with that, then why not ask for more?, more quality, more details, more evolution. It seems that the current society is happy with crumbs. That's why Michaels Bay's Transformers 4 exist and that depresses me.

That's why my very first question: Nobody cares anymore? About you reply Rei: Your commentary make me remember why I do this, and make me think that I shouldn't care about it either. Im angry in this moment that's all. 10/10 to your comment. 

In spanish: Lo siento, Omegapsycho, pero te fuiste con la finta.
No lo hice, si por lo menos lo hubiera hecho bien tal vez no estaria tan molesto, esto fue como dibujar un bigote y decir que es otra cosa.

I did not, at least if he had done well perhaps would not be so upset, this was like drawing a mustache and name it different.


This is a story from 1 fighting game fan to another. I'll try not to wall -o- text but I can't guarantee it =p
Thanks for sharing your story with me "Just No Point" maybe that's what I wanted. 

XSZ

Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#18  January 10, 2016, 10:21:51 PM
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Your work gets plenty of props, Omegapsycho. You are a boss. But if you're not getting the motivation you seek, maybe you should take a break to see if it comes back to you.
Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 10:33:06 PM by XSZ

lui

Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#19  January 10, 2016, 10:26:51 PM
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man, i really do suck at wording, i didnt mean to come off as hostile and not-caring, i do really love your works, my main point is, just dont care about who edits your work man, they're probably not gonna be as good as your original stuff and if someone fixes some stuff, you can use that to improve yourself even more, just dont let little edits like these get you down man, frankly its not really worth caring over.
Re: The "honor code" of the mugen scene . Nobody cares anymore?
#20  January 10, 2016, 10:37:26 PM
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man, i really do suck at wording, i didnt mean to come off as hostile and not-caring, i do really love your works, my main point is, just dont care about who edits your work man, they're probably not gonna be as good as your original stuff and if someone fixes some stuff, you can use that to improve yourself even more, just dont let little edits like these get you down man, frankly its not really worth caring over.
Do not worry man; the fact that you're in this topic tells me you really care. Thanks a lot for that.