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Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out! (Read 1737474 times)

Started by Jmorphman, November 01, 2010, 09:13:43 PM
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This is the water
81 (25.2%)
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The horse is the white of the eye
37 (11.5%)
And the dark within
52 (16.2%)
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Drink full, and descend
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Total Members Voted: 319

Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6181  July 29, 2020, 06:09:56 AM
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Kusanagi [Feedback]:
- Against certain characters, the final strike of either version of Kiri Homura will completely miss in the corner. The normal version will miss certain characters, like DeathScythe's R. Mika and Ingrid, while the MAX variant will miss his Akuma and even your Demitri, among other characters.

Just tested and indeed, same thing here. I use 640 x 480 by the way. Tested on my 3 chars and is exactly like you mentioned. At first I thought it would be something with my chars but after testing more I noticed this happens with others too, like Jesuszilla's Felicia, PotS' Lei-Lei, and so on.
Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 06:21:06 AM by DeathScythe
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6182  July 30, 2020, 01:09:25 AM
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And Tenuuzan is badass, how can you not like it!? D:
It feels kinda redundant what with Orochinagi, and it's all a bit too obvious that it's SNK reusing existing sprites and working them into a new move after slapping new FX over it. All of the new Kyo-1/2 supers have that feeling to me, and I don't really like them that much.

Just tested and indeed, same thing here. I use 640 x 480 by the way. Tested on my 3 chars and is exactly like you mentioned. At first I thought it would be something with my chars but after testing more I noticed this happens with others too, like Jesuszilla's Felicia, PotS' Lei-Lei, and so on.
I legit have not been able to get it to work with your Akuma or most of the other examples, except for Lei-Lei, weirdly enough. IDK what the hell is going on but who cares, I'll extend the hitbox a little bit to the right and call it a day.
Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 01:18:37 AM by Jmorphman
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6183  July 31, 2020, 09:45:06 AM
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It could possibly be a MUGEN 1.1 thing, then. I dunno if you're using 1.0 and that's why it's not happening to you, but ah well.

Back on topic, I don't have anything to say feedback wise about Classic Ken and SF3 Ken specifically. Generally, I feel like some command timings could use a bit more leeway and forgiveness so to speak, and the Geri kicks have a bit too much knockback to them, which makes the follow ups feel kind of pointless, but I didn't find any general bugs or anything major that really stood out to me with just those two. Violent Ken on the other hand, I did find some things I feel could be tweaked a bit:

- His defense feels a bit too low, honestly. Normally, lowering the defense is something they did for the evil shotos to compensate for their heightened speed and damage dealing capabilities, neither of which Violent Ken has.
- I feel like NIGASAN Rasetsukyaku could use a bit more range or speed, it doesn't quite feel as good as it should if you have to rely on that for Violent Ken's mobility.
   - On the note of Rasetsukyaku, I think the light variant is missing afterimages or the speed lines...something else that the other versions have. It's a bit hard to tell exactly what since it's so quick, but I can definitely tell it looks different.

Either way, I definitely enjoy playing with this new Ken and I can't wait to see what else comes from you.

DW

Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6184  July 31, 2020, 04:56:22 PM
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That's how the Geri kicks work in CvS2. He just made them more accurate to source. It is gonna throw a lot of people off though who aren't familiar with the game. I was actually thrown off by how he had them prior to this. As I'm used to them being...well tbh not that good. I really only ever use the LK version and HK version. HK for anti air, LK for grounded combos, into super cancels.

I agree with Project when it comes to the cancel windows now and V.Ken's defense. There's really no need for him to take more damage, because honestly, he's not any better or honestly that faster than normal Ken. He just folds like paper now from any mistakes made. While his payoffs aren't all that great. I'm really not a fan of this mechanic outside of a fullgame setting. As who you end up going against will really beat the snot out of him in just a few seconds. It's why I just go with a lower base health value, rather than taking more damage from p2.

If nothing else, I don't think your cancel windows need to be so strict. I understand that this is also how it is in CvS2, and you may feel what you had initially was too lenient, but I'd suggest going with something halfway between.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6185  July 31, 2020, 07:40:58 PM
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Yeah, I haven't played a lot of CvS2, and even less Ken in that game. MUGEN makes me wanna go back to it less though I do appreciate the game for what it is and what it's given us, honestly. Gonna miss them being quarter-circles at least :V

Another thing I noticed, when you play as Violent Ken in Arcade Mode/Survival Mode, the "results screen" will have him do a Classic Ken pose. Rewinding a bit, I also forgot to mention the same goes for Kusanagi when he does a Kyo pose. Not sure if that's always a thing or because I'm using the separate DEFs, though.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6186  July 31, 2020, 10:37:49 PM
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Which cancels in particular are more/too difficult? I didn't really change any of them from the older version, aside from making it so that close stand and crouching heavy punches can only be cancelled in their early portion (where Ken's arm has not fully extended into a full uppercut), since those latter parts are considered to be separate, uncancelled attacks in CvS2. Almost everything else is the same (or slightly more lenient, in one case!) :-\

It could possibly be a MUGEN 1.1 thing, then. I dunno if you're using 1.0 and that's why it's not happening to you, but ah well.
I use 1.0, that might be it, but who knows. It wouldn't be happening at all if MUGEN didn't suck and had actual real pushboxes, though!

Back on topic, I don't have anything to say feedback wise about Classic Ken and SF3 Ken specifically. Generally, I feel like some command timings could use a bit more leeway and forgiveness so to speak, and the Geri kicks have a bit too much knockback to them, which makes the follow ups feel kind of pointless, but I didn't find any general bugs or anything major that really stood out to me with just those two.
Looking over the Geri's again, just purely going by visuals, I think the pushback is probably a bit too much compared to CvS2. I'll have to make a more thorough comparison to find out if that is indeed the case, and if so, fix it.

- I feel like NIGASAN Rasetsukyaku could use a bit more range or speed, it doesn't quite feel as good as it should if you have to rely on that for Violent Ken's mobility.
   - On the note of Rasetsukyaku, I think the light variant is missing afterimages or the speed lines...something else that the other versions have. It's a bit hard to tell exactly what since it's so quick, but I can definitely tell it looks different.
I've remade the move and patterned it directly on SVC; it might not go as far as it did in the old version of Ken, but it's a lot faster and still astoundingly useful; it's pretty much the reason Violent Ken is considered way better than regular Ken in SVC, even despite the lowered health and weirder movement speed/jump arc.

Speaking of, the vitality of Violent Ken  is based on Evil Ryu's health in CvS2 (and Master mode takes an even greater hit). And I think that's fair, because both modes have a better moveset, with Rasetsukyaku, the horizontal air Tatsu, and Shinbu Messatsu. With the greater risk comes greater reward!

Another thing I noticed, when you play as Violent Ken in Arcade Mode/Survival Mode, the "results screen" will have him do a Classic Ken pose. Rewinding a bit, I also forgot to mention the same goes for Kusanagi when he does a Kyo pose. Not sure if that's always a thing or because I'm using the separate DEFs, though.
I just tried out both Kusanagi and Violent Ken, and they both do one of their correct winposes, regardless of whether it's with a separate .def or just the all-in-one .def. Maybe 1.1 screws this up, somehow?

DW

Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6187  August 01, 2020, 03:37:41 AM
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Which cancels in particular are more/too difficult? I didn't really change any of them from the older version, aside from making it so that close stand and crouching heavy punches can only be cancelled in their early portion (where Ken's arm has not fully extended into a full uppercut), since those latter parts are considered to be separate, uncancelled attacks in CvS2. Almost everything else is the same (or slightly more lenient, in one case!) :-\

Hmm... Maybe it's just me then. I was just testing him out. His Hadouken super cancels feel a bit more strict, along with the Geri super cancels. Prior to this update, I don't remember having any troubles with them. This mainly refers to cancelling into Shippu Jinrai from either one of them. I just did some practicing, and while I'll get it like 70-75% of the time, some times I won't get Shippu Jinrai at all. Mainly with Hadouken super cancels though. That feels more strict now.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6188  August 01, 2020, 06:57:55 AM
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On my end, in addition to things like Hadouken into Shippu cancels in for all characters, I can't count how many times on V. Ken I've tried to get Shinryuken the Kuzuryureppa but I've gotten Rasetsukyaku instead. As far as the winpose thing, I guess it is something else 1.1 bugs up. I forget how unbalanced it is sometimes in comparison to 1.0 lol.

Edit: Something else I just noticed for all versions of Ken: MAX Shoryureppa and Shinryuken, as well as all Shippu Jinrai variants are zero frame supers. I'm not sure if that's intentional for all versions, since I'm sure Shippu Jinrai is zero frames in SF3, but I figured it's worth mentioning. I'd personally recommend changing that, since zero frame supers aren't particularly fun lol..

Edit 2: I know it's annoying for me to keep going on about this and it's how it's supposed to be, but I still think V. Ken shouldn't be taking so much damage. Evil Ryu in CvS2 still did more damage than Normal Ryu did I believe, so it makes sense why he takes bit more damage, even if he wasn't much faster. I personally don't think that's the best example to go off of for Violent Ken for that reason, since he's slower and does the same amount of damage. In addition to that, V. Ken may have extra mobility options due to Rasetsukyaku and the air Tatsu, but he definitely doesn't have the same kind of offensive options that Classic or even SF3 Ken do, mainly due to his jump arc as well as lacking the easy link the other Ken's have with the Target Combo. In the end, the level of damage he takes feels like it's punishment just for playing the character, honestly.

Edit 3: Something feedback related not about V. Ken's defense or anything, I feel like the end of Shinbu Messatsu should be tweaked a bit, either sending the opponent flying back a bit more, have them be knocked into the air higher or shorten the time V. Ken needs to regain his composure. In certain circumstances, mainly using it in the corner or just certain characters being fast enough, they can actually hit Violent Ken while he's still breathing heavily, which technically makes the move unsafe even after it's successful.

Edit 4 [I'm sorry lol]: There's some funkiness going on with Violent Ken's special intro vs Froz's M. Bison. This could just be a 1.1ism though https://streamable.com/75bmxh
Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:00:36 PM by PRØJECT.13

DW

Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6189  August 01, 2020, 05:23:54 PM
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Edit 2: I know it's annoying for me to keep going on about this and it's how it's supposed to be, but I still think V. Ken shouldn't be taking so much damage. Evil Ryu in CvS2 still did more damage than Normal Ryu did I believe, so it makes sense why he takes bit more damage, even if he wasn't much faster. I personally don't think that's the best example to go off of for Violent Ken for that reason, since he's slower and does the same amount of damage. In addition to that, V. Ken may have extra mobility options due to Rasetsukyaku and the air Tatsu, but he definitely doesn't have the same kind of offensive options that Classic or even SF3 Ken do, mainly due to his jump arc as well as lacking the easy link the other Ken's have with the Target Combo. In the end, the level of damage he takes feels like it's punishment just for playing the character, honestly.

I concur with this, but I won't stress the matter after this. His only real advantage over the other modes is Rasetsukyaku. Is Shibu really that much stronger than Shonetsu? It may be more reliable as a Lv3, because it's easier to combo into/a quick dash in super, but that's really it. I don't know why anyone would ever use the horrible air Tatsu as a mobility tool. He can run, dash, Rasetsukyaku, roll, short hop.... All of which are faster and safer options.

Evil Ryu pretty much becomes "baby" Akuma. It's a far better buff than Ken -> V.Ken. E.Ryu's speed, strength, and juggle potential increase warrant a defense nerf for balance. V.Ken just doesn't gain anything to warrant such a nerf honestly. E.Ryu even retains the air Tatsu that's affected by gravity, which is better for attacking p2. It can cross up and he can combo into it from j.lk/j.lp. This is one of Ken's best jump in options to me, but V.Ken loses this, because it's not affected by gravity.

He's more high risk, than high reward. His rewards aren't any better than his normal form. His stats aren't any better. Rasetsu is literally his only "saving grace".

Edit 4 [I'm sorry lol]: There's some funkiness going on with Violent Ken's special intro vs Froz's M. Bison. This could just be a 1.1ism though https://streamable.com/75bmxh

This is a 1.1 thing. I can confirm I've never seen this happen in 1.0. Ya'll really need to come off that buggy beta. Or maybe you may have patched it oddly? This doesn't happen with me.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6190  August 02, 2020, 02:28:42 AM
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Hmm... Maybe it's just me then. I was just testing him out. His Hadouken super cancels feel a bit more strict, along with the Geri super cancels. Prior to this update, I don't remember having any troubles with them. This mainly refers to cancelling into Shippu Jinrai from either one of them. I just did some practicing, and while I'll get it like 70-75% of the time, some times I won't get Shippu Jinrai at all. Mainly with Hadouken super cancels though. That feels more strict now.
I dunno then, cuz those weren't changed at all from the old version of Ken; the cancel windows are identical. I'm not sure what could be causing this, and I honestly can't pull off the Hadoken -> Shippu cancel in the old version of Ken. The Hadoken to other supers cancel feels mostly the same but seems slightly less lenient than the new one (where it seems easier to pull off to me) too. :-\

Edit: Something else I just noticed for all versions of Ken: MAX Shoryureppa and Shinryuken, as well as all Shippu Jinrai variants are zero frame supers. I'm not sure if that's intentional for all versions, since I'm sure Shippu Jinrai is zero frames in SF3, but I figured it's worth mentioning. I'd personally recommend changing that, since zero frame supers aren't particularly fun lol..
Only the level one versions should. Level 2 and above have enough superpause that they'll hit people who haven't already started guarding yet (except for level one Shippu, that's just a hair too fast regardless);. But it seems to be a problem in my characters's guard code; other people are able to guard it correctly, I'll put out an update fixing it.

Edit 2: I know it's annoying for me to keep going on about this and it's how it's supposed to be, but I still think V. Ken shouldn't be taking so much damage. Evil Ryu in CvS2 still did more damage than Normal Ryu did I believe, so it makes sense why he takes bit more damage, even if he wasn't much faster.
It's actually the opposite, in fact! Evil Ryu does around 7 damage less (100 damage less in CvS2) for most moves compared to Ryu. And he's not even faster (or slower) than normal Ryu, either!

Edit 3: Something feedback related not about V. Ken's defense or anything, I feel like the end of Shinbu Messatsu should be tweaked a bit, either sending the opponent flying back a bit more, have them be knocked into the air higher or shorten the time V. Ken needs to regain his composure. In certain circumstances, mainly using it in the corner or just certain characters being fast enough, they can actually hit Violent Ken while he's still breathing heavily, which technically makes the move unsafe even after it's successful.
I think I forgot to adjust things when I extended the breathing animation.

I concur with this, but I won't stress the matter after this. His only real advantage over the other modes is Rasetsukyaku. Is Shibu really that much stronger than Shonetsu? It may be more reliable as a Lv3, because it's easier to combo into/a quick dash in super, but that's really it. I don't know why anyone would ever use the horrible air Tatsu as a mobility tool. He can run, dash, Rasetsukyaku, roll, short hop.... All of which are faster and safer options.
Rasetsukyaku is really that good, and Shinbu is waaaaaaaaay easier to use and combo with than the level 3 Shinryuken, which is extremely situational.
Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 02:32:46 AM by Jmorphman
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6191  August 02, 2020, 02:57:22 AM
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Edit 2: I know it's annoying for me to keep going on about this and it's how it's supposed to be, but I still think V. Ken shouldn't be taking so much damage. Evil Ryu in CvS2 still did more damage than Normal Ryu did I believe, so it makes sense why he takes bit more damage, even if he wasn't much faster.
It's actually the opposite, in fact! Evil Ryu does around 7 damage less (100 damage less in CvS2) for most moves compared to Ryu. And he's not even faster (or slower) than normal Ryu, either!l.
I don't have the numbers off the top of my head but the same thing happens with O. Iori in terms of damage. Every rekka does like 100 (7) less damage and iirc the normals and other specials too. He was faster than regular Iori tho, both in basic movement and in frame data.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6192  August 02, 2020, 07:33:25 AM
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It may be easier to combo into, if only due to the fact that after doing a Hadouken, you can just do D, DB, B, 2Punches with proper timing but with how limited V.Ken's mobility is without Rasetsu, getting  in there to actually pull that move off is a challenge in of itself. Shounetsu Shinryuken is better in terms of damage and how easy it can be used to punish attacks, and Guren Senpukyaku imo is better still because you can very easily do any jumping normal -> Target Combo -> Hadouken -> Guren and still get all the hits to connect even outside of the corner. You may think Violent Ken may have an all-around better moveset, but Classic and SF3 Ken have better tools to utilize their own movesets and get damage. All you can really focus on with Violent Ken is avoiding damage rather than dealing it due to his wet-paper-thin defense.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6193  August 02, 2020, 08:54:16 AM
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It may be easier to combo into, if only due to the fact that after doing a Hadouken, you can just do D, DB, B, 2Punches with proper timing but with how limited V.Ken's mobility is without Rasetsu, getting  in there to actually pull that move off is a challenge in of itself.
Well, that's exactly the point. V.Ken's mobility is heavily based around Rasetsukyaku (as well as his dash/run to a lesser extent, since those act the same as normal mode), and it's why he's so strong in SVC. Shonetsu Shinryuken might do much more damage (though the beta version did way too much; I've since decreased the damage a fair amount because I did the original damage values when was toying with having it not have any real way to super cancel into it), but Shinbu Messatsu is much, much more useful because its outstanding range: if you can cancel into it, chances are, it will probably connect and do full damage. For example: Shinbu Messatsu makes one of his longest range pokes potentially very damaging (crouch MK -> HCF + MK) because it's the only thing in any mode of Ken that will be able to follow that, no matter at what range its performed.

Guren likewise has great range, but since it doesn't "lock" the opponent in, it might not end up doing its full amount of damage (which is why its damage is about midway between Shinbu Messatsu and Shonetsu Shinryuken).
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6194  August 02, 2020, 11:04:13 AM
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Classic Ken's Target Combo into MK Geri can go into his supers, unless I'm misreading what you're saying as far as that goes or if that's something you've already changed post-Beta. Even with all of that, it's not all that great to warrant such a massive wedge in his defense stat. I want to make this clear because even I feel like I've lost the point I'm making lol: I personally am not arguing against Violent Ken taking more damage in comparison to the other Kens, but the sheer level of extra damage he takes imo, is far too steep.

Spoiler: Spoilered because screenshots (click to see content)

The characters in those screenshots are Trololo's Nash, your Ken and Violent Ken, and mwryly's Evil Ryu, the latter of whom were hit with the same combo: Heavy Sonic Boom [as it's the slowest and actually allows me to chase it], jump-in Heavy Kick, close Heavy Punch, Judgement Saber. I play on 200% life and it still does that much damage to Violent Ken, in comparison to Classic Ken and Evil Ryu. Comparing with how much harder you have to try with Violent Ken to get damage as opposed to Classic Ken and even SF3 Ken, I just don't believe V.Ken taking that much extra damage is necessary.

Edit: Another thing to take into consideration is that you're very closely basing your Violent Ken on SvC: Chaos, where Ken in that game doesn't have the same tools your Ken does, and Violent Ken can also do one other thing yours can't do legitimately: With proper timing, you can hit the opponent with a Shinbu Messatsu right after a Kuzuryureppa in SvC: Chaos. Your Violent Ken can, too, due to how the moves work, but it's only possible in training mode or giving Violent Ken an additional two bars. No, I'm not asking you to do that =P
Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 11:20:02 AM by PRØJECT.13
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6195  August 03, 2020, 01:51:15 AM
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Classic Ken's Target Combo into MK Geri can go into his supers, unless I'm misreading what you're saying as far as that goes or if that's something you've already changed post-Beta. Even with all of that, it's not all that great to warrant such a massive wedge in his defense stat. I want to make this clear because even I feel like I've lost the point I'm making lol: I personally am not arguing against Violent Ken taking more damage in comparison to the other Kens, but the sheer level of extra damage he takes imo, is far too steep.
Yeah, that's not really what I'm talking about at all. His Target Combo can lead to some very nice combos, but... those are all combos. And he needs to be up close in order to even use his target combo to begin with. I'm talking about how Violent Ken can uniquely convert one of Ken's best pokes (crouch MK) into a very damaging combo, even from the maximum distance it can possibly hit. Shinbu Messatsu is the only super that can still connect after HCF+MK at that range. That's one of the many reasons Shinbu Messatsu is so much better than Shonetsu Shinryuken.

Edit: Another thing to take into consideration is that you're very closely basing your Violent Ken on SvC: Chaos, where Ken in that game doesn't have the same tools your Ken does, and Violent Ken can also do one other thing yours can't do legitimately: With proper timing, you can hit the opponent with a Shinbu Messatsu right after a Kuzuryureppa in SvC: Chaos. Your Violent Ken can, too, due to how the moves work, but it's only possible in training mode or giving Violent Ken an additional two bars. No, I'm not asking you to do that =P
Sure, but he can still follow up Kuzuryureppa with Shinryuken for some completely unscaled, big damage! I think that sequence might just be the most damaging combo any mode of Ken can do, in fact.

... and actually, that gives me an idea, I should reset the internal hit counter if Kuzuryureppa hits, so that all damage done afterwards is unscaled, even stuff that's not a super (which ignore hit count based scaling). It does 19 hits, so even if its done alone, you're already facing down a 1/2 damage penalty due to the dampener. I should descrease the damage Kuzuryureppa itself does, though.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6196  August 03, 2020, 12:14:58 PM
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It's fairly difficult for me to try and link crouching MK into MK Geri. It's not impossible, but it's definitely not an easy link for me at least. I dunno if the same can be said for anyone else, though. The Kuzuryureppa tweak would help him deal more damage, which does help to offset the damage he takes, so that's a bonus too.

To offset the amount of complaining I'm doing in this thread, I've got a some palettes for Ken: Five for Classic/SF3 and another five for Violent

Spoiler: Ken Palettes (click to see content)

Spoiler: V. Ken Palettes (click to see content)

There are more but there's some funkiness with the PNGs, so I gotta check out wtf.

Fixed the funkiness and grouped all of the palettes together all proper-like.

Edit: One note of feedback and a suggestion:

- Against certain characters, Kuzuryureppa can be blocked mid-move right as the Shinryuken portion is starting. I'm not sure if this is also one of those weird 1.1isms or not, but I notice it happening against Ikaruga's and Infinite's characters mainly.

- I think it'd be cool if you gave Violent Ken his howl as a special winpose if you KO with Shinbu Messatsu. I know it's not what happens in source, but I think it'd look sick and go with the rest of the evil shotos, even if it isn't actually a Raging Demon.
Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 10:56:36 PM by PRØJECT.13
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6197  August 04, 2020, 02:19:33 AM
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Thanks for the palettes!

It's fairly difficult for me to try and link crouching MK into MK Geri. It's not impossible, but it's definitely not an easy link for me at least.
I'm no CvS2 expert but my understanding is that crouch MK into LK Geri (MK Geri in CvS2 is garbage) is a standard combo for him; it's definitely not as easy as it would be if it was a QCF motion, but the added trickiness feels very Ken to me.

- Against certain characters, Kuzuryureppa can be blocked mid-move right as the Shinryuken portion is starting. I'm not sure if this is also one of those weird 1.1isms or not, but I notice it happening against Ikaruga's and Infinite's characters mainly.
I forgot to change the hittime, fixed.

- I think it'd be cool if you gave Violent Ken his howl as a special winpose if you KO with Shinbu Messatsu. I know it's not what happens in source, but I think it'd look sick and go with the rest of the evil shotos, even if it isn't actually a Raging Demon.
I'd probably just keep him hunched over but IDK if it would look great.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6198  August 05, 2020, 10:41:15 PM
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Him just being hunched over and still panting doesn't sound quite as hype as him madly roaring over his defeated opponent tbh lol. Got some more things to mention, mainly clarifications on previous feedback:

- About the issue regarding Violent Ken's poses, that only seems to happen in Survival mode, it seems. Winning or losing with him in Arcade mode has him using his proper animations, but in Survival mode it's still normal Ken's poses. Still could be a 1.1 goof, but still worth clarifying.
- The other issue I mentioned with Violent Ken and Froz's M. Bison pose seems to be a thing on Violent Ken's side, even if it is just a bug with 1.1. I did a fresh install on Bison, didn't patch the intro and checked it out and the same issues still happened: Violent Ken gaining meter in Training mode while Bison didn't, the "Round 1: Fight!" message still popping up just as V. Ken howled. I know nothing about coding so I didn't know what to look for or anything else, so maybe pointing this out to you could be useful in the end.

And again, I know I must be really annoying with this, but I seriously hope you change your mind about Violent Ken taking such a hefty hit in his defense. So many times when I've lost with him outside of Survival mode, there's very rarely a time where I can see my losses as my own fault rather than the result of Violent Ken just having the staying power of an ant in a tornado, and no true tools to justify that fact. Rasetsukyaku still isn't too reliable because it just doesn't reach far enough. Even if you use it solely to dodge projectiles, unless you're a full screen away when you use it [which at that point, why would you use it when you could either parry the projectile, use the dodge mechanic or just meet it with a Hadouken of your own], you're just gonna end up right in front of the opponent and you're gonna get hit, since the invulnerability period is gone after V. Ken reappears. If you are still deadset on not raising his defense, at the very least give him some EX moves so he could at least have more means of damage dealing, even if they aren't the same as Ken's.

Edit: One more thing I've been curious about: Ken and Violent Ken's air throws are the same. So why is Ken's mapped to punches while V. Ken's are to kicks? It's kind of unnecessarily confusion when switching back and forth imo.
Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 10:54:13 PM by PRØJECT.13
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6199  August 06, 2020, 03:02:49 AM
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- About the issue regarding Violent Ken's poses, that only seems to happen in Survival mode, it seems. Winning or losing with him in Arcade mode has him using his proper animations, but in Survival mode it's still normal Ken's poses. Still could be a 1.1 goof, but still worth clarifying.
I can only get it to happen in 1.1; I can only assume that Ken's var(40) (the mode change variable) never gets set during the survival results screen. Maybe it's skipping 5900, for some reason? Well, regardless, I suspect I can fix it by having like, different System.St files for each .def Ken has, but that just strikes me as wasteful; it's such a relatively minor issue that only happens in 1.1, so I'm can live with it cuz I don't use 1.1  :8):

- The other issue I mentioned with Violent Ken and Froz's M. Bison pose seems to be a thing on Violent Ken's side, even if it is just a bug with 1.1. I did a fresh install on Bison, didn't patch the intro and checked it out and the same issues still happened: Violent Ken gaining meter in Training mode while Bison didn't, the "Round 1: Fight!" message still popping up just as V. Ken howled. I know nothing about coding so I didn't know what to look for or anything else, so maybe pointing this out to you could be useful in the end.
I guess 1.1 just doesn't like pauses during intros. The "round 1" stuff happens as soon as the pause ends—and given that the pause is pretty essential to the intro—there's probably no way of fixing it, short of removing the pause entirely.  The meter stuff happens because Vega gets paused immediately, before Training Mode's meter gain kicks in; much like the round 1 bug, there's no way to avoid that without getting rid of the pause. And the pause is too central to the intro to remove.

The meter thing also happens in 1.0, and its certainly annoying, but it does only happen in training so eh.

And again, I know I must be really annoying with this, but I seriously hope you change your mind about Violent Ken taking such a hefty hit in his defense. So many times when I've lost with him outside of Survival mode, there's very rarely a time where I can see my losses as my own fault rather than the result of Violent Ken just having the staying power of an ant in a tornado, and no true tools to justify that fact. Rasetsukyaku still isn't too reliable because it just doesn't reach far enough. Even if you use it solely to dodge projectiles, unless you're a full screen away when you use it [which at that point, why would you use it when you could either parry the projectile, use the dodge mechanic or just meet it with a Hadouken of your own], you're just gonna end up right in front of the opponent and you're gonna get hit, since the invulnerability period is gone after V. Ken reappears. If you are still deadset on not raising his defense, at the very least give him some EX moves so he could at least have more means of damage dealing, even if they aren't the same as Ken's.
He has the same life as Evil Ryu (in CvS2), and I'm pretty dead-set on that. And I really don't want to give him EX moves because PotS's Evil Ryu (and Akuma) don't have them either, and I like that they don't have EX moves. It makes them stand out as the unique alt modes they are.

Edit: One more thing I've been curious about: Ken and Violent Ken's air throws are the same. So why is Ken's mapped to punches while V. Ken's are to kicks? It's kind of unnecessarily confusion when switching back and forth imo.
It's because their grounded version of the throw is on kicks and punches, for normal and Violent modes respectively. Normal Ken will do his rolling throw with punches on ground or in the air, and the same applies to Violent Ken and his rolling throw, but with kicks instead.
Re: Jmorphman's WIP thread: Ken update BETA out!
#6200  August 06, 2020, 10:29:38 AM
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I didn't think of that with the throws, mainly because I thought SF3 Ken would have the kneegrab exclusively, but he doesn't have it at all o-o; Ah well. On the note of the EX moves, while I do honestly understand that point, Shin Akuma didn't get EX moves cause he's Shin Akuma: He had a higher damage output, the double air hadoukens and higher speed to offset his tanked health, so Shin Akuma didn't really need EX moves. Once again, Violent Ken doesn't have most of that. More recent P.o.t.S-styled renditions of Evil Ryu have EX moves nowadays, as well, such as mwryly's Evil Ryu and it doesn't make him too much better in the sense of breaking him.

Edit: I'm only doing this again because these are characters you've specifically mentioned so now I have a proper frame of reference. Again, doing the spoiler only because it's four screenshots in 1280x960 resolution.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

The characters on the ground in order of the screenshots taken are Warusaki's Evil Ryu, P.o.t.S Evil Ryu, P.o.t.S Shin Akuma and of course, your Violent Ken. Literally the only move I did was Asura's Saishuu Misogi, and compared the damage between the four characters. Not only does Violent Ken take more damage than Warusaki's Evil Ryu, who is based on CvS2 as you based his health off of that [though admittedly, I have no idea just how accurate Waru's Evil Ryu is to source] Violent Ken took considerably more damage than both P.o.t.S Evil Ryu and Shin Akuma, and he certainly doesn't have the same offsets to his low health and defense as the other two, especially Shin Akuma as I mentioned before. Even with everything you've mentioned before, it's all really just not enough to warrant such a massive blow to his defense like this, I'm sorry.
Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 01:25:34 PM by PRØJECT.13