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Comic Characters and the Painful Truth (Read 18600 times)

Started by Karl/Karla, August 12, 2021, 10:46:46 pm
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Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#1  August 12, 2021, 10:46:46 pm
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Remember when we had ZVitor, Loganir, and Alucard making some of the best MUGEN characters like Aquaman, Astonishing Cyclops, and Batman, respectively? Remember when we had sites like CrusaderCast and RandomSelect that had all our favorite creators? Remember when it was normal to have to wait for an amazing character that wasn't another goddamn spriteswap? Yeah, that's all gone now. All of it. Gone. ZVitor is a OpenBOR creator now as far as I know, Alucard has disappeared, Loganir... let me tell you something right now...

Ax and others like him are ruining the integrity of MUGEN as a whole. I'm just as impatient as the next guy, but if your laziness comes at the expense of other people's actual effort, you're treading shallow fucking ground, hotshot. Is it too much to ask to put something, ANYTHING, into your glorified shit-stain of a character? And when it comes to actually finished characters? Well now, let's not be so hasty. We still got feedback to respond-... what's that? You don't wanna take feedback? You don't wanna get judged by meanie-heads that don't know what they're talking about on the internet? Awww.... you want your bottle too? You wanna get your diaper changed? WELL TOO BAD, YOU'RE GONNA TAKE CRITICISM AND YOU'RE GOING TO LIKE IT. You don't get what you fucking want all the damn time. The least you could do is say what's wrong with the character first before anyone else. You know everything, right? Then say what needs to be done on the character, instead of acting like the damn president of your own fan club.

And then there's vol-.... He's off limits? Oh. clears throat

And then there's Magus. I used to look up to Magus. Then I looked at his history... DCvM fullgame? Never finished. But what about the websi-domains closed. But wh-He doesn't wanna pay. Bu-Because he doesn't care! But what about the characters on his YouTube channel? They have to be somewhere! They're private. They're what? Private. Well I mean, there's a good reason behind-he's selling them.

And then it clicked. He isn't doing this for fun. He doesn't do this for his fans. He doesn't even do it because it's his job. He does it for money. That fucking scumbag uses his YouTube channel like a goddamn window shop, AND HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY HE'S MAKING MONEY OFF SOMETHING MOST HARDWORKING PEOPLE DO FOR FREE?! What he is doing is more than wrong, and he's never gonna get punished for it. Who cares about the legality at this point? This selfish loser has plenty of followers. To avoid sounding more vengeful than I already do, I won't name them. But if you know, you know. They support this despicable behavior by saying he doesn't owe you anything. THAT SPINELESS PIECE OF SHIT NOT ONLY OWES THE SCRUFFY DRAGONS AN APOLOGY, BUT ALL OF MUGEN IS OWED AN APOLOGY FOR THE IRREDEEMABLE ACTIONS HE TOOK IN DISMANTLING THE GOOD NAME OF THE MUGEN COMMUNITY.

SO, NEEDLESS TO SAY... I AM FUCKING PISSED. And you should be too! Not as much as I am, but you should make an effort to take off the stigma against comic book characters (I know you have a stigma, don't fucking lie to me) and shout out the best Marvel and DC characters NOT made by Magus, or any of the DCvM team. I want to make a point that good creators still exist and are making fucking amazing comic book characters, people like Arkady, Angelus Silverhead, and many others. Give the MUGEN and comic book fans strength by putting your favorite mugenized comic book character in the replies! Tell me the character and who made them.

I'll start: Bullseye by O-Illusionista & Doom
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#2  August 13, 2021, 01:44:23 am
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Well for starters, all those creations and authors you mentioned weren't that good to begin with. The whole stigma against comic book characters in Mugen exists for a reason.

From my observations, there's a simple explanation for this. The truth is that Comic Book authors simply don't care about the gameplay. Rather instead, their intention is to make the character as "faithfully" as possible by cramming as many references to comics as they can. That's why we end up with a character having two projectile supers where one of them is a beam and the other is a bunch of missiles and they both serve the same purpose as a super, frame data that is either super advantageous or disadvantageous without a good reason for being so, cinematic supers that literally take a minute because gotta cram a bunch of things into it(I'M LOOKING AT YOU, LOGANIR), people asking why a big guy that can do a lot of damage like Juggernaut isn't also fast and nimble when he wasn't slow in the comics, thinking that reverse damage scaling is a good idea because gotta reward long combos with damage, Spider-man being able to make a deal with Mephisto to restart the round, etc.

Gameplay is an afterthought to these guys, that's why when you give feedback on it they make excuses as to why they insist on keeping it as is. In fact, authors have ran off to MMV specifically to avoid receiving feedback.


tl;dr Mugen Comic Book Authors don't care about how a Fighting Game properly plays and just want to make Comic Book characters with a bunch of references to them.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#3  August 13, 2021, 02:11:48 am
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Well for starters, all those creations and authors you mentioned weren't that good to begin with. The whole stigma against comic book characters in Mugen exists for a reason.

From my observations, there's a simple explanation for this. The truth is that Comic Book authors simply don't care about the gameplay. Rather instead, their intention is to make the character as "faithfully" as possible by cramming as many references to comics as they can. That's why we end up with a character having two projectile supers where one of them is a beam and the other is a bunch of missiles and they both serve the same purpose as a super, frame data that is either super advantageous or disadvantageous without a good reason for being so, cinematic supers that literally take a minute because gotta cram a bunch of things into it(I'M LOOKING AT YOU, LOGANIR), people asking why a big guy that can do a lot of damage like Juggernaut isn't also fast and nimble when he wasn't slow in the comics, thinking that reverse damage scaling is a good idea because gotta reward long combos with damage, Spider-man being able to make a deal with Mephisto to restart the round, etc.

Gameplay is an afterthought to these guys, that's why when you give feedback on it they make excuses as to why they insist on keeping it as is. In fact, authors have ran off to MMV specifically to avoid receiving feedback.


tl;dr Mugen Comic Book Authors don't care about how a Fighting Game properly plays and just want to make Comic Book characters with a bunch of references to them.

Today I learned comic book mugen characters more or less have the same problem as those derived from Western Animation, especially after creators like Madoldcrow1105 left; they exist to make a slew of references with practically zero mechanical consideration, leading to samey moves and broken mechanics. Except with the Western Animation community, they also suffer from the problems the Nintendo/Sonic/Kaiju/MK community suffers from alongside this, and even worse graphics. What’s not helping is the dearth of quality comic book fighters commercially; MVCI received huge backlash from bland music, being an obvious MCU commercial, and other issues, whereas Injustice, which admittedly has its fans, is… uninspiring and not MUGEN friendly. See the ABITorial on that game for more details. The fact they’re all ranging from 2.5D to 2.75D is another factor, so they don’t really give sprites for use by most. Heck, I’ve noticed creators also don’t bother with more modern post-Aluminum Age characters anyway.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#4  August 13, 2021, 02:25:59 am
  • ***
  • I'm trapped in my own personal hell.
  • I'm going to kill myself.
    • USA
Well for starters, all those creations and authors you mentioned weren't that good to begin with. The whole stigma against comic book characters in Mugen exists for a reason.

From my observations, there's a simple explanation for this. The truth is that Comic Book authors simply don't care about the gameplay. Rather instead, their intention is to make the character as "faithfully" as possible by cramming as many references to comics as they can. That's why we end up with a character having two projectile supers where one of them is a beam and the other is a bunch of missiles and they both serve the same purpose as a super, frame data that is either super advantageous or disadvantageous without a good reason for being so, cinematic supers that literally take a minute because gotta cram a bunch of things into it(I'M LOOKING AT YOU, LOGANIR), people asking why a big guy that can do a lot of damage like Juggernaut isn't also fast and nimble when he wasn't slow in the comics, thinking that reverse damage scaling is a good idea because gotta reward long combos with damage, Spider-man being able to make a deal with Mephisto to restart the round, etc.

Gameplay is an afterthought to these guys, that's why when you give feedback on it they make excuses as to why they insist on keeping it as is. In fact, authors have ran off to MMV specifically to avoid receiving feedback.


tl;dr Mugen Comic Book Authors don't care about how a Fighting Game properly plays and just want to make Comic Book characters with a bunch of references to them.

You really didn't read jackshit past the first paragraph did you? Not only are you dissing the best comic book characters we have in mugen yet (apparently all of Loganir's work), you clearly didn't read my entire post. To compensate for your incompetence, I'll add another good Marvel character to download: Thanos by The_None
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#5  August 13, 2021, 02:37:50 am
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Today I learned comic book mugen characters more or less have the same problem as those derived from Western Animation, especially after creators like Madoldcrow1105 left; they exist to make a slew of references with practically zero mechanical consideration, leading to samey moves and broken mechanics. Except with the Western Animation community, they also suffer from the problems the Nintendo/Sonic/Kaiju/MK community suffers from alongside this, and even worse graphics. What’s not helping is the dearth of quality comic book fighters commercially; MVCI received huge backlash from bland music, being an obvious MCU commercial, and other issues, whereas Injustice, which admittedly has its fans, is… uninspiring and not MUGEN friendly. See the ABITorial on that game for more details. The fact they’re all ranging from 2.5D to 2.75D is another factor, so they don’t really give sprites for use by most. Heck, I’ve noticed creators also don’t bother with more modern post-Aluminum Age characters anyway.

Ya, it's a conflict of interests. They want to see their favorite characters fight in Mugen but lack any knowledge on how FGs are supposed to work so they end up winging it. The thing is, there's some good spriters here that are better off partnering with a good coder instead. You get your wish of your character in Mugen and it ends up being pretty good and fun for everyone. Everybody wins.

You really didn't read jackshit past the first paragraph did you? Not only are you dissing the best comic book characters we have in mugen yet (apparently all of Loganir's work), you clearly didn't read my entire post. To compensate for your incompetence, I'll add another good Marvel character to download: Thanos by The_None

Listen kid, I've been doing the Mugen song and dance for over a decade. I know what I said and I'm 100% sure on them. I read what you wrote and I just happen to completely disagree with you. If you got a problem with that and have to resort to petty insults because you're offended, then quite honestly you're no better than those you criticize don't accept feedback.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#6  August 13, 2021, 02:45:01 am
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DOES NO ONE HERE HAVE HOPE?!




Superman by Kal-Elvis and Hannibal
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#7  August 13, 2021, 02:48:51 am
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Like I said, been here for over a decade. The only time I will have hope is if the character was made by a well established author. And more often than not they don't even focus on Comic Book characters anyway.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#8  August 13, 2021, 03:07:03 am
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Like I said, been here for over a decade. The only time I will have hope is if the character was made by a well established author. And more often than not they don't even focus on Comic Book characters anyway.

You're telling me I wasted 3 hours of my life pouring my frustrations out for the world to see, just to be told my entire post is completely worthless considering I'd just be talking to a concrete wall that has no intention of making positive change in this god-forsaken black hole of a community?

I really should just shut the fuck up and let a community die out while it's ahead....




Spawn by DJHANNIBALROYCE
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#9  August 13, 2021, 03:16:36 am
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There're good comic book chars indeed... but like 1-2 of 10 comic book chars out there are good (from original sources than adapted from Marvel vs. games). For me, most of CB chars are good sprite edits than good characters, especially when they use the MvC2 templates, which are mostly terrible. So yeah, the stigma is there actually...

Now, if you want to look actual creators who make good CB chars, I got some names for you: O Ilusionista (one of the few elder ones who's still active), the guys from Vs. Style Debuts, Nexus Games, Infinite, lui, JJkoolaid, MGMURROW (another old one who's still active), Mr. Giang (retired months ago)... check out their creations if you want good and actual CB chars ;)

Rest in peace, Toriyama-san...
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Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#10  August 13, 2021, 03:17:58 am
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yeah, there's still some good comic book characters, try them out will you? instead of whining about that comic book nonsense.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#11  August 13, 2021, 03:22:25 am
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You're telling me I wasted 3 hours of my life pouring my frustrations out for the world to see, just to be told my entire post is completely worthless considering I'd just be talking to a concrete wall that has no intention of making positive change in this god-forsaken black hole of a community?

I really should just shut the fuck up and let a community die out while it's ahead....

You say this like MUGEN's fate is hinged on the quality of comic book characters lol please calm down.

While I respect the passion in your vent post, and believe me I have my own frustrations, I, at least, try to look past it and do up what I wanna see myself.

For example, I'm not a fan of Chuchoryu's characters -- I think the spritework is decent at best but the code is blah and there's not enough to work with. So I take what resources he has and code up how I wanna see the characters play myself. That way I give myself the 'win' I wanna see.

Yeah, good CB chars are a rarity. A lot of the more well known authors have retired, gone missing, or just don't make CB chars anymore if they ever did. While I'm all for appreciating those who put the effort in to make really good, quality chars, it's hard for ME to see this as an "attempt at making positive change" when you've been very negative. At least, that's how it's come off to me.

As Basara has mentioned, there's a plethora of authors who have done up CB chars in their own way(s). Definitely check them out, they may have what you're looking for. Best of luck.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#12  August 13, 2021, 03:32:57 am
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Yeah, what Mushy and 087-B (I forgot to add you in my list, sorry) said. OK, there're fugdly CB chars, but you don't just whine like a little girl and do something to the respect. About Chuchoryu, I'm very tempted to take one of his chars and strip off the sprites from SFF and make something new from scratch (my no.1 choice is Juri Han BTW), and maybe you could make the same: learn how to code, pick up some CB char you like that has bad code and remake it your way. it's a better contribution than crying about why CB chars are bad *MIC DROP*

Best of luck.

EDIT: About self-promotion, years ago I patched Seth Zankuten's Superboy and Ex-Inferis' Bane (first version) to make them good (or at least decent) CB chars, if you got them, give them a try ;)

Rest in peace, Toriyama-san...
Normal WIPS - ClayFighter - Ideas - Anti-Gouki Project - Lifebars - Facebook - X
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#13  August 13, 2021, 03:41:07 am
  • ***
  • I'm trapped in my own personal hell.
  • I'm going to kill myself.
    • USA
There're good comic book chars indeed... but like 1-2 of 10 comic book chars out there are good (from original sources than adapted from Marvel vs. games). For me, most of CB chars are good sprite edits than good characters, especially when they use the MvC2 templates, which are mostly terrible. So yeah, the stigma is there actually...

Now, if you want to look actual creators who make good CB chars, I got some names for you: O Ilusionista (one of the few elder ones who's still active), the guys from Vs. Style Debuts, Nexus Games, Infinite, lui, JJkoolaid, MGMURROW (another old one who's still active), Mr. Giang (retired months ago)... check out their creations if you want good and actual CB chars ;)

Thank you! Truly thank you. Also, I don't think I've heard of lui unless he's walruslui. So I'll check him out!
yeah, there's still some good comic book characters, try them out will you? instead of whining about that comic book nonsense.

Yeah, what Mushy and 087-B (I forgot to add you in my list, sorry) said. OK, there're fugdly CB chars, but you don't just whine like a little girl and do something to the respect. About Chuchoryu, I'm very tempted to take one of his chars and strip off the sprites from SFF and make something new from scratch (my no.1 choice is Juri Han BTW), and maybe you could make the same: learn how to code, pick up some CB char you like that has bad code and remake it your way. it's a better contribution than crying about why CB chars are bad *MIC DROP*

Best of luck.

EDIT: About self-promotion, years ago I patched Seth Zankuten's Superboy and Ex-Inferis' Bane (first version) to make them good (or at least decent) CB chars, if you got them, give them a try ;)
Whining, huh? If I was whining, I wouldn't have been self-aware. I knew damn well I was gonna have to be humble so I didn't get banned. I don't know how exactly to get banned, and I don't plan on getting a tutorial. Basically, I could've had an entire fucking temper tantrum but I respect myself enough to keep my passion to myself. Somewhat.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#14  August 13, 2021, 03:50:36 am
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  • the fertilizer that feeds them.The choice is yours
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Whining, huh? If I was whining, I wouldn't have been self-aware. I knew damn well I was gonna have to be humble so I didn't get banned.
Don't worry, this isn't enough for a ban, and I understand you too, sometimes I feel the same about certain stuff on MUGEN, but as I said before, the best way to change that is you being the change. I hope you check out the authors list I gave you and maybe you get inspired to create your own chars and try to change the overview ;)

Rest in peace, Toriyama-san...
Normal WIPS - ClayFighter - Ideas - Anti-Gouki Project - Lifebars - Facebook - X
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#15  August 13, 2021, 03:58:43 am
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  • I'm trapped in my own personal hell.
  • I'm going to kill myself.
    • USA
Whining, huh? If I was whining, I wouldn't have been self-aware. I knew damn well I was gonna have to be humble so I didn't get banned.
Don't worry, this isn't enough for a ban, and I understand you too, sometimes I feel the same about certain stuff on MUGEN, but as I said before, the best way to change that is you being the change. I hope you check out the authors list I gave you and maybe you get inspired to create your own chars and try to change the overview ;)

That is the problem with me. I don't code. Worse, TIME MANAGEMENT IS A BITCH TO ME. I only know how to draw(and how!), so my best bet is to make a bunch of sprites Dee Bee Kaw style. He is one of my favorite characters tho. And it would seem fun to work on...
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#16  August 13, 2021, 04:00:33 am
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You're telling me I wasted 3 hours of my life pouring my frustrations out for the world to see, just to be told my entire post is completely worthless considering I'd just be talking to a concrete wall that has no intention of making positive change in this god-forsaken black hole of a community?
Just by one user, really. You can and should have your opinions, and they're equally as valid as Darkflare's opinions. Don't think him as wholly representative of an entire community.

Whining, huh? If I was whining, I wouldn't have been self-aware. I knew damn well I was gonna have to be humble so I didn't get banned. I don't know how exactly to get banned, and I don't plan on getting a tutorial. Basically, I could've had an entire fucking temper tantrum but I respect myself enough to keep my passion to myself. Somewhat.
You don't need to feel like you need to be constantly worried about being humble to avoid being banned. I know some communitie/sites can get very ban-happy but that's not how we do things around here.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#17  August 13, 2021, 04:24:23 am
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If I may suggest, you could always commission author Kenshiro99 to code up a comic book character for you, he's incredibly top tier in dishing out MVC style goodness. If you'd be willing to fork over some dough, I'm certain he'd give you something quality you'd be looking for.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#18  August 13, 2021, 04:34:05 am
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You're telling me I wasted 3 hours of my life pouring my frustrations out for the world to see, just to be told my entire post is completely worthless considering I'd just be talking to a concrete wall that has no intention of making positive change in this god-forsaken black hole of a community?

I really should just shut the fuck up and let a community die out while it's ahead....

That's a pretty exaggerated type of thinking.

When it comes to Comic Book characters, you don't have a lot of good options. You basically have to rely on people to make conversions from the CB fighting games. In fact, of all the characters you listed, I would only agree with None's Thanos as a good character. There are some good custom made ones but they're very rare.

But when it comes to authors that exclusively do CB characters, they're all bad for the reasons I already listed.

If I may suggest, you could always commission author Kenshiro99 to code up a comic book character for you, he's incredibly top tier in dishing out MVC style goodness. If you'd be willing to fork over some dough, I'm certain he'd give you something quality you'd be looking for.

If his profile is accurate, I don't think a 16 year old will be forking over any money unless he's rich.
Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#19  August 13, 2021, 04:40:27 am
  • ***
  • I'm trapped in my own personal hell.
  • I'm going to kill myself.
    • USA
If I may suggest, you could always commission author Kenshiro99 to code up a comic book character for you, he's incredibly top tier in dishing out MVC style goodness. If you'd be willing to fork over some dough, I'm certain he'd give you something quality you'd be looking for.

Ooh... that would be nice... uh, I don't know if you could tell but, I'm 16.

So uhh... I don't exactly have a bank account to get stuff done with, if you know what I mean. Add that to the list of reasons why I haven't made a character yet. :/


You're telling me I wasted 3 hours of my life pouring my frustrations out for the world to see, just to be told my entire post is completely worthless considering I'd just be talking to a concrete wall that has no intention of making positive change in this god-forsaken black hole of a community?

I really should just shut the fuck up and let a community die out while it's ahead....

That's a pretty exaggerated type of thinking.

When it comes to Comic Book characters, you don't have a lot of good options. You basically have to rely on people to make conversions from the CB fighting games. In fact, of all the characters you listed, I would only agree with None's Thanos as a good character. There are some good custom made ones but they're very rare.

But when it comes to authors that exclusively do CB characters, they're all bad for the reasons I already listed.

If I may suggest, you could always commission author Kenshiro99 to code up a comic book character for you, he's incredibly top tier in dishing out MVC style goodness. If you'd be willing to fork over some dough, I'm certain he'd give you something quality you'd be looking for.

If his profile is accurate, I don't think a 16 year old will be forking over any money unless he's rich.

Yeah, what he said.

lui

Re: Comic Characters and the Painful Truth
#20  August 13, 2021, 04:52:41 am
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Here's the thing. I like comicbooks. I like comic characters. I like fighting game with comic characters.


Threads like this which focus on praising mugen comic book characters are always gonna be filled with backlash because the reality is that 90 percent of comic book characters in mugen are pretty bad. I've even made some and they are not good by today's standards to be quite honest.

I will defend the ones the pioneered the way for alot of mugen content we take for granted now, such as Kal Elvis' Superman.


But I'm not gonna lie either, over 10 years later I'm starting to see the cracks in loganir (and verz's) game play design. Pretty flashy stuff but overly bloated as well in some aspects. I like the two and have even spoken to them in the past, but I really wouldn't put them up on some godlike pedestal as you kind of are doing.


I'm not saying it's bad to want to celebrate comic book characters but you really should understand there's gonna be alot of opinions that are on the opposite end of that spectrum if you want to have a fair discussion.
Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 05:02:06 am by lui