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Death Battle (And sprite fight animations) (Read 1472469 times)

Started by Long John Killer, April 09, 2015, 03:59:16 AM
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Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2461  December 28, 2020, 11:09:01 PM
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Well, a few things.  Yes, it was the both of them being reckless that shook the universe, but neither Beerus or Goku were trying 100% (Beerus keeps getting retconned to stupid degrees where it was, what, 70% of his power to start with holding off Goku at the end of Battle of Gods?  To now, like, 0.00001% trying, because they keep needing him being stronger than Goku/Vegeta's new forms in the story's plot until MUI?  He kept getting buffs via retconned dialogue, not any feats of his own, which is why he still had no problem with Battle of Gods' Goku going SSJG x SSJ1) and frankly that scene probably existed solely to counteract the age-old DBZ argument of characters never being as strong as they say because their fights typically are only mountain-tier in destruction with random planet busting.  The whole crux of ki control that DBZ fights are based off of is toxic to fight debates because it's all based on word of mouth over feats.

Beyond that though, this also was an issue that arose in Beerus vs Galaxia.  Dragon Ball has two contradicting canons that neither is placed above the other.  In the anime, Goku gets a ridiculously high permanent stat boost over pure luck that the manga canon lacks.  The anime has his base upgrade permanently to always been SSJG-tier since the first time he achieved it, just 'cuz.  Manga this never happens and his base is still his base, weaker than SSJ1.  All the fights in the manga that the anime also have just downscale their opponents to match Goku's power levels there, this stupid boost is wholehandedly ignored in the story of Dragon Ball, it's just.....there and required to acknowledge in fight debates like this.

SSJG however being able to do this isn't that farfetched.  It's a grade above SSJ3, Goku presenting SSJ3 against Buu and Babadi shook the universe and all its various planes of existence in a destabilizing manner.  And as transformations go, the previous one can't touch the next one.  The jump from that universe shaking to SSJG destroying it isn't that big a jump.
Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 12:53:37 AM by Long John Killer
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2462  December 29, 2020, 01:15:06 AM
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This episode reminded me of one of my biggest gripes with Dragon Ball; that being it's overuse of random multiplication tables to indicate a character's power.  Every new villain or transformation or whatever is always hyped up as being eleventy billion times stronger than something or other, which sounds impressive at first shake but doesn't actually mean anything substantive.  It's such an annoying "tell, don't show" method of storytelling.

Not that I have any issue with the outcome of the episode, mind.  As strong as Hulk is, they make a good point in that he is always on a relatively short timer.  Unless he's able to very quickly overwhelm the opponent completely he's likely to run out of steam first; IIRC, the exact same thing was the deciding factor when Hulk lost to Doomsday in the last DB he was in.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2463  December 29, 2020, 01:37:25 AM
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I mean....huh?  It's shown by routinely the new baddie beats them into the ground without a scratch on them, is it not?  The proof of power is....in their display of power?  And the usual means to overcome them is the protag's new transformation tied to some new big emotional resolution, Goku and Gohan's resolve in not losing another innocent life via Krillin and Android 16 respectively.  SSJ3 is the one that doesn't follow this trend, it is the weakest form narratively, mostly just there as a point that "Yeah, Goku COULD solve your problems here because if anyone would find the means over the years he would but he's TRYING to pass the torch", a point that ultimately didn't land, and SSJ4 is more tied to the Baby arc's Saiyan lore connection.  God's another attempt at the Saiyan lore thing like SSJ4 and Blue's supposedly about inner peace. (Super's not so good at getting that across for sure, though)

I guess you can attribute it to a timer per se, but Doomsday's victory was more about his hax ability in that Hulk could not harm him to begin with and his poisons could counteract Hulk's healing which was needed for Hulk's strength and survivability, not that Hulk would revert by default after some time.  Fight wouldn't go on that long to matter either way.
Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 01:45:18 AM by Long John Killer
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2464  December 29, 2020, 02:31:25 AM
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IMO, it's just generally symptomatic of Toriyama's extremely short sighted, week-by-week writing style that he never left himself enough time or space to build up or properly explain anything, which is why so much of the alleged massive increases in strength wound up being verbally stated rather than visibly shown.  The stuff that characters were doing to show off their power level in endgame DBZ were more or less visually identical to stuff Goku and Roshi were throwing around in original Dragon Ball.  For as much as DB excels in many aspects that make a great manga, its actual storytelling is pretty slapdash when you get right down to it.

I think that contributes to a lot of the fervor around Dragon Ball content in Death Battle; so much of that series is predicated on characters insisting that they are very very strong and relying on the readers to just roll with it, that when some actually puts in the work to find out whether or not they are, in fact, very very strong fans get miffed because the disbelief can no longer be suspended.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2465  December 31, 2020, 03:25:32 AM
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There is one thing they have that does confound me to wrap my head around.  The Hulk being faster than Broly?  Broly, like everyone else, goes by DBZ stat increases via power levels, he's higher than Beerus thus faster than Beerus.  Beerus should scale to Champa, they had no issue flying between universes right quick. (What was the timeframe of the initial universe sneaking around when Champa first appeared, a few minutes?  Hours?)  I have issue seeing Hulk run at Flash levels of speed to run multiple universes in that timeframe.  Granted, thinking of Hulk as "fast" at all is strange, but still, even with benefit of the doubt I simply never seen him remotely in that range.  That's faster than the majority of Supermen.

Oh, also others seem to say the remaining people in the next season teaser are an Attack on Titan character, Doctor Doom and the Kill la Kill girl.  Only match-up there the DB team have shown some hint at some sort of plan beyond initial spitballing ideas is Mikasa was pit against Spider-Man ages ago in DBX for....reasons?  I did not get it, personally.  Doctor Doom they've mentioned on DBC once or twice how little they get to do same universe fights and shown interested in Doctor Doom versus Magneto at their greatest, but no idea if this is their follow-up on that or whatever.  Kill la Kill I did not watch past episode 2 or 3, did not enjoy it, can't offer much.

....Well, I mean besides years ago when Kill la Kill was current, I remember Sailor Moon fans bringing up her and Usagi were two sides of the same coin of character designing, but HAH like those would be in the same ball park to put in Death Battle.
Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 03:35:10 AM by Long John Killer
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2466  February 24, 2021, 10:11:51 PM
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Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2467  February 24, 2021, 11:46:59 PM
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Ehhhhuhhhh.....'kay then.

I won't remotely pretend I've read all the Star Wars novels.  I think I've read, like, two.  I can't place Yoda's high-end feats simply because in the extended universe, Movies 1-9 are child's play in content for feats.  I'll let others more knowledgeable cover him in detail.  The most I can attribute is Yarael Poof I believe used his control of The Force to his utmost ability and saved a planet from blowing up, but it killed him in the process, and he was, like, better suited for the job than a different Master like Yoda would have been.  But they're probably in the same ballpark; is potentially a planet-level psychic but would kill them in the process.

King Mickey would scale to fighting Master Xehanort's perfected armored Real Organization XIII.  He had to take on all 13 of them at once and beat them in KHIII ReMind.  His power to do so also, like, lit up an infinite number of universes.  I'm honestly not sure of that and high-balling it off memory and trying to discect KH's both confusing plot and just-as confusing multiverse.  But, like, it reached to every World, which contains its own seperate universe (A la Lilo & Stitch "world" is their whole universe of space plus their Earth and galaxy you travel in and whatnot, and each other Disney world is their own universe.  I do not know how this works, frankly, some of the different Disney movie stars are related, yet are sequestered to different universes in KH.  It's weird)

I'm gonna have to go on the hunch that Mickey is stupidly out of Yoda's power range.  In Yoda's favor though, we have no idea Mickey's age is other than vaguely young, and Yoda is, what, a thousand or something?  Yoda's much more experienced for sure.  And The Force allows much, MUCH greater control of most battlefields than KH's borrowing of FF's magic system.

I still imagine King Mickey wins my a landslide.  But hey, maybe Yoda can move the whole Star Wars universe or something.  I dunno.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2468  February 25, 2021, 12:42:26 AM
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Well, after the bullshit excuses they used to have Luke beat Harry Potter, I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda won.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2469  February 25, 2021, 02:34:27 AM
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Luke vs Harry Potter was ages ago.  That was a different team, working under different rules, looking for different win conditions and much less research put into it.  Rule of thumb, by Word of God themselves over at Death Battle, Season 1 should be effectively ignored.  Even if they have accurate winners, their reasoning is more likely than not to not hold up.  It was early into the show's concept and simply did not expect to have the lasting power it did.  Hell, if I recall correctly, Wonder Woman vs Rogue was done in 3 weeks Ben said, all by him?  1 week reading various WW comics he had, 1 week reading random X-Men comics, 1 week animating.  Something like that.

....Granted even the latest episodes I take issue with.  It confounds me still how they thought Beerus would stand up to Galaxia, surely they misunderstood how Sailor Moon works?  Anyways, though, Luke and Harry?  The episode was pretty basic and bare bones, but, like.....Luke's got quite the large victory over Harry with his means to win, no?  I mean, deflecting magic with the lightsaber's dumb, but not like it was needed anyways?  Considerably less than Harry's wand.
Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 05:14:27 AM by Long John Killer
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2470  February 25, 2021, 04:39:12 AM
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If you ask me, their research hasn't really improved that much. Of the characters I know, most of the stuff they represent have holes and obvious things that they left out, they should just drop the whole analysis thing and make animations, it would be much better.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2471  March 01, 2021, 11:56:11 PM
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Yoba