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Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character? (Read 3664 times)

Started by krudelu, May 13, 2019, 05:01:48 am
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Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#1  May 13, 2019, 05:01:48 am
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There are some characters I've seen that incorporates every single move in the games they appear in. Also, sometimes, there are characters that have like more than 5 supers of the same resources used (like 5 level 1 supers or something like that).

What are your guys' thought and opinions on characters having a lot of moves? I mean.... too many moves.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#2  May 13, 2019, 05:09:46 am
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Some people just want to play their favorite characters in their ultimate form with all moves available. Personally, I'm not that interested in characters with too many moves and hypers (especially when many of those moves are unnecessary and having similar usage, which shows the lack of knowing how fighting game characters should be designed). 2 or 3 Hypers with different uses are OK, 4 are a bit too much, but anything having over 5 hypers is a no to me. The amount of specials can vary, as long as they fit characters' playstyle nicely.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#3  May 13, 2019, 05:18:26 am
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 I find it wasteful and redundant imo. A character with a vast array of moves starts to lose meaning to its archetype and is just a mere spectacle in most cases I have experience. The main problem is that authors who focus on gigantic movesets tend to lack aim in giving their characters a coherent playstyle, it's especially noticeable when these extra moves add nothing to a character when they have other moves that can fill in the role better. There are exceptions in the case of what I did for Mio and her stance gimmick that essentially let's her switch between two drastically different playstyles to cover different weaknesses or authors who generally create alternative modes for the same character such as Sennou-Room did with his Kirito update, but pulling it off well is not common otherwise.

 Essentially, style over substance in the majority of cases.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#4  May 13, 2019, 05:22:58 am
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Since in MUGEN you're free to create anything the way you want, is just a matter of taste. There's no rule like "characters must have x special moves, x hyper moves, etc". Of course, nothing in excess is good. A good balance of moves make a good moveset and a good experience for the player. It also can make matches not fair if your character have too many moves while the opponent only have a few moves. As I said, is a matter of taste, and in my opinion, I prefer characters with a balanced moveset rather than a character with many moves from various different sources.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#5  May 13, 2019, 07:18:29 am
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Makes the game as a whole feel cluttered with unnecessary moves that don't make it feel balanced or right. They're good for like secret characters but just don't make them too powerful.
sailormoongalaxy said:
I had read on Wikimoon, and I found it grotesque it was so wrong.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#6  May 13, 2019, 12:43:34 pm
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I find it's best to plan the moveset out in advance so you can evaluate the purpose of each move, see where there's overlap, and understand what the character currently lacks; there will usually always be overlap of sorts, but the aim is to make it so every move has its own utility and nothing feels redundant, even if a particular move's use is somewhat niche compared to the others. For example, if you're going to give your character a number of projectile Specials since you've decided to make a pretty mean keepaway character, you have to consider the difference between each one instead of just loading the character with projectiles that more or less function the same; a projectile doesn't have to be your standard fare fireball that travels horizontally across the stage, so get creative.

Similarly, if your character has versions of the same Special (X/Y/Z), you have to make sure each version has its own use because it's amazingly easy to make the light and heavy versions the only ones worth using (light is quickest/safest, heavy is strongest/best for combos, in a common scenario), so sometimes you need to give the medium version something extra so it's still relevant; of course, when the difference between each version is the angle, velocity, or location of an attack, each version serves its own clear purpose by default.

To summarise, while it's not a guarantee that giving a character a ton of moves will result in redundancy, it's likely to happen; moves that end up being redundant don't get used and only serve to bog the character down.

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Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#7  May 13, 2019, 02:24:01 pm
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As for my opinion:

My rule of thumb is never include more moves than what Kung Fu Man has (for 4 button characters) or what is typical for a MvC or Street Fighter characters (for 6 button characters). So, for a typical 4 button character, it will be 12 basic moves, 12 super moves (or maybe an extra 4 or 8 moves if I am willing to give the character aerial attacks), and at most three hyper moves.

Out of curiosity, would anyone consider KFM or MVC characters having over saturation of moves? They are usually the gold standard to which we evaluate other characters.
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Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#8  May 13, 2019, 03:07:18 pm
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Morrigan from DS3 has like 5 supers(minus the EXs). She only has like 4 specials but doesn't feel saturated.

MVC2 Sentinel on the other hand has too many overpowered moves and passive properties(armor and long range normals). It's annoying to have to fight him as an assist as it functions as a shock absorber good for baiting.

I guess you can balance it out with stats if one character has too many moves and how effective those moves are in a match.
sailormoongalaxy said:
I had read on Wikimoon, and I found it grotesque it was so wrong.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#9  May 13, 2019, 11:48:01 pm
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While I said there's no rule of how many moves a character should have, I think we creators decide what these rules should be.
KFM in my opinion is far from over saturation. Being a 4 buttons character, he has a decent amount of moves, I'd say he could have even more moves, maybe.
For MvC, I've always found it hard to get used because of how "sparkly" it is (not only the sparks and effects, but the high jumps, lots of combos, etc), but this is just the style. From my experience with MvC games (which is not that big), I think it isn't saturated at all.
Since I'm used to the CvS gameplay, I use it as a base. For a normal character with 6 buttons, about 4 or 5 special moves, 2 or 3 super/hyper (1 power bar) and 1 stronger super/hyper (3 power bars), or, if it's a boss character, you can have a little more, for example, 6 specials and 2 stronger super/hyper (3 power bars).
Akuma for a normal character and Shin Akuma for a boss character used as an example (from CvS2):

Akuma:
2 adds for the normal moves:
1. Zugai Hasatsu
2. Tenma Kuujin Kyuaku

Specially for Akuma we have 6 special moves, if you count that he is a sub-boss, most of other characters have 4 or 5:
1. Gou Hadouken
2. Shakunetsu Hadouken
3. Zankuu Hadouken
4. Gou Shoryuken
5. Tatsumaki ZankuuKyaku
6. Ashura Senkuu

3 Normal Super/Hyper:
1. Messatsu Gou Hadou
2. Messatsu Gou Shoryu
3. Tenma Gou Zankuu

1 LV3 Super/Hyper:
1. Shun Goku Satsu

Shin Akuma is almost the same with some additional moves or the same moves acting different (usually harder, better, faster, stronger :8): ), but most important, he has 2 LV3 Super/Hyper:
1. Shun Goku Satsu
2. Misogi

Remember that's just me, is not a rule or anything, is up to you to decide what is good or not to your character. It also depends on the style, there are games that don't even have Super/Hyper moves, so.... :P
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#10  May 14, 2019, 12:53:36 am
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It's only an issue if they have every possible move available at all times as opposed to a groove select or a config file as in Don Drago's 4 in 1 characters.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#11  May 14, 2019, 04:25:23 am
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Personally, my biggest issue with KFM is his lack of moves and strange commands for some. I'm one of the crazy people who personally prefer their most used characters in Mugen to have a ridiculous amount of attacks available at any given time, no Start palettes or hidden modes. Preferably for me, the same command, different "strengths" = Different attacks and not "slow, medium, or fast" fireball.

That said. I am not really a fan of EX moves that are "even stronger" forms of a special. Or "close/neutral jump only" normals.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#12  May 14, 2019, 07:29:17 am
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Characters with a crap ton of moves were fun when I first got into Mugen, but the novelty of that wore off pretty quick.  I suppose stuff like this will appeal to the most extreme of the casual crowd.

Now that I'm older, dabbled in competitive play, and actually have some understanding of fighting game design, I try to steer away from these types of characters because they end up feeling overloaded with no real sense of gameplay identity. 

A lot of the earlier posts here hit the mark on my thoughts of moveset design.  Each move, be it a normal, special, or super, should have some beneficial functionality to be used in some situation.  There should be a purpose behind the intended use for that move so that a well trained player understands what to specifically use it for.  A move should never designed to be purposely bad so that there's no reason to use it.  (GG Smash Little Mac.)  Each move should contribute somehow to the character's kit, and push their gameplay toward some intended design.

As mentioned in earlier posts, functionality overlap is definitely a thing that should be considered.  At no point do you want all your players to go 'why should I use X move, when Y is always better is every situation?'.  Otherwise, you have a move that is outright obsolete.

On the topic of A/B/C specials, I feel like BBXTag opened my eyes to how you can design three similar or very different moves and map them to the same motion with different buttons.  For those who haven't played, you've got your classic light/heavy/ex versions of a special, and their different properties are pretty clear for the most part.  But every now and then you have characters who's ex version is a completely different move visually and/or functionality wise, but still has some relation to the light/heavy version of the motion.  (Ragna's Bloodscythe propels him forward like his other 214 moves.  Naoto's Hold Up->Critical Shot works completely differently from her Snipe Aim and Double Fang, but they all use the 236 motion, involve her gun and can put her into her gun stance.)

I agree with a lot of the comments on archetype.  Limiting or expanding the types of moves a character can do, really defines their playstyle and overall identity.  I feel like a character with a defined design identity makes them a lot more interesting as a concept, and possibly in terms of gameplay. (Last part is up to each player.)  It also shows that the creator of the moveset had a clear vision in mind for their gameplay, and carefully designed their kit to achieve that.

Lastly, I don't think a character with lots of moves for covering many situations is a bad thing, as long as the character is balanced accordingly.  I would consider them to be a decently rounded all-rounder.  An example would be SF4's Seth who borrows other character's moves to have a versatile kit so that he can handle many different situations.  The downside is that his HP is hella frail, thus his player needs make less mistakes.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#13  May 14, 2019, 12:09:51 pm
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A move should never designed to be purposely bad so that there's no reason to use it.

Unless you're making a joke character like Dan, most of his moves are useless xD

Or the classic hundred moves cheap invencible characters that should not be taken seriously :P
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#14  May 14, 2019, 04:16:11 pm
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I dont have problems with more moves,unless they are same,there is no reason to have 4 different projectile moves for example(unless you fire multiple projectiles(Shin Akuma,or one of them is charged does stun etc(denjin) like whats the difference beetween shinku or metsu hadoken again?
same with beam moves as well,no need for beam attacks that are pretty much same thing.
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#15  May 27, 2019, 01:03:44 am
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I think a character could have more moves than ordinary (max 6-7 imho) if they're all necessary for strategic purposes and, most importantly, if they're funcionally different. A character I'm working on has 6 moves which are funcionally different: 4 offensive (a fireball, a mid-range attack, a physical widerange attack and a enemy debooster) and 2 defensive (1 personal boost and a dodging move).
Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#16  May 27, 2019, 01:49:43 am
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Out of curiosity, would anyone consider KFM or MVC characters having over saturation of moves? They are usually the gold standard to which we evaluate other characters.

I think the major MvC outliers for over saturation is Dante (which might as well be his gimmick) and Silver Samurai(?). I remember one character from MvC 2 who seemed to deviate from the norm with the amount of moves they had.
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Re: Thoughts on over saturation of moves in one character?
#17  September 26, 2020, 01:36:45 am
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It's only an issue if they have every possible move available at all times as opposed to a groove select or a config file as in Don Drago's 4 in 1 characters.

I agree on this solution to the problem, but this is a complex issue. I feel like many, many characters have too many moves; in that the results of the same input with a different strength are a completely different move, usually with only the same general concept. This is seen a lot with SaltyBet-type characters, as well as characters by younger creators trying to be JudgeSpear and making meme, Nintendo, and Western Animation stuff up the wazoo. Even weirder is that a lot of the moves are similar between characters among the younger set, and Heavy Punch/Kick moves are made ersatz EX moves in light of the way the Hyper commands are handled. Many characters will only accept a specific combination of buttons for their hypers, which is in some cases, like the MGMX characters by Duracellur, is used to create dozens of Hypers. With others, it just feels arbitrary. Many characters do not have enough Unique Attacks or throws, and seem to put too much emphasis on Specials and Hypers. Unique Attacks and throws, along with their relatives the diagonal/vertical jump moves and close normals, add as much variety as the Specials do, and are often key to combos.