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White Supremacists Protest in Virginia (Read 21135 times)

Started by Amy, August 13, 2017, 12:32:51 AM
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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#61  August 15, 2017, 06:58:10 PM
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It's easy to take free speech for granted in a western nation because of strong structures. So it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with policing a little hate speech. History has proven that when you start weakening free speech (Latin America), you most certainly inch closer to unreasonably suppressed speech.
Right, except for all the other Western countries where hate speech isn't protected by free speech and is considered a crime. It's called Europe. You might also have heard of Germany that straight up bans most depictions of Nazi symbols, which gives a hard time whenever someone wants to make a documentary or a WWII video games, they have to jump through a few hoops to be greenlit.
Policing hate speech should be obvious even in any democracy.
I mean, lolwtf come on.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 07:02:20 PM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#62  August 15, 2017, 07:30:46 PM
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I agree. I think the worry is that it'll become too much. New things will fall under "hate speech". I mean it's kind of the same reason ppl hate gun control. You start off at nukes and they fear you're going to take away their slingshot over time.

I'd like to risk it for these extreme cases though =p
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#63  August 15, 2017, 07:42:29 PM
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Yeah, hate speech has been a crime for like half a century in half of Europe with no problem. We're not all that dumb. It's been 130 years in France and 100 years in Canada ! This fear that it'll devolve and break down is nonsense.
Well, unless you begin electing people like Trump, but that's not happening in normal countries. And if it does, it ends in a revolution.

In other news, Lee's statue has been torn down by protesters, it seems.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#64  August 15, 2017, 08:45:44 PM
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Back in the civil rights era, groups like the KKK were far bigger in number, piggybacking off what Fubini said. They've ultimately withered to the point where numerous protesters were from out of state (car attacker was from Ohio, two others arrested were from Florida and Tennessee). Yes, people really drove from different states to protest a statue's removal. Their total number was around 500 iirc.

The free market of ideas already won out on neo-nazi groups. There's no need to add additional legislation to make their speech illegal. Can't speak for Europe in that regard, sensitivities may be different enough to warrant such laws.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#65  August 15, 2017, 08:53:37 PM
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there is a need for it, because their protests lead to violence and peoples deaths.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#66  August 15, 2017, 09:13:15 PM
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If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:29:18 PM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#67  August 15, 2017, 09:30:52 PM
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They were voted in because states that voted Obama in 2012 flipped for economic concerns.

White supremacist movements are fringe, this one incident horrible as it is, doesn't change that.
Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:34:25 PM by Niitris
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#68  August 15, 2017, 09:34:12 PM
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Im glad Snakebyte took the time off from from considering the EU a facist state to remind us all that the rampant racists and neo nazis have all the right in the world to organize and speak out about how they think minorities don't deserve to live and should all be murdered en mass. Glad you got our back there buddy.

No, buddy, you don't get to slander me and call me a racist because I'm accurately telling you how the first amendment works. The constitution isn't racism.

When seeing that Trump wouldn't condemn the far right, a few republican senators have asked for the car killing to be named for what it was : a domestic terror attack.
If you think the protest was peaceful, you're delusional, it always leads to violence. You only need to look at the people who came to the protest in full army gear (weapons included) and full body armor and whatnot. And the next picture is those same guys in body armor with riot shields surrounding one Black guy on the ground beating his head in with sticks.
Calling it peaceful is just fucking nuts.

Trump DID condemn the far right, both implicitly in his first statement and explicitly in his second. Condemning everyone involved includes condemning the far right. This is people trying to spin a tragedy into political point-scoring and it's fucking disgusting, this isn't about fucking Trump, can none of you stop your foaming-at-the-mouth Trump hate for one second? Even when there's actual blood on the ground?

The white supremacists, like it or not, had the right to protest peacefully
lol


Naw that wasn't a slip-up. They were protesting peacefully and then the VA police tried to make them disperse. The non-peaceful actions--including the, y'know, car murder--came hours after that. I know most sane people probably don't give a shit, but their rights were violated by the state before any of the carnage went down. They're suing and they'll win, even if public opinion will be as against them as it is possible to be.

This is... one of the most monumentally ridiculous cases of being 'technically correct' I've ever seen, but it's the way it went.

your nazi friends.
they don't deserve freedom when they proudly motion a sign that signifies race superiority. they don't deserve freedom when they scream "blood and soil" and "you will not replace us".
they don't deserve freedom when they fucking demand ethnic cleansing and beat up black bypassers.
fuck their freedom.

Everyone deserves freedom. If you take freedom away from anyone, you take it away from everyone. They are not 'my Nazi friends' and absolutely fuck you for saying that I support murderers and racists when I didn't do that in any way. If a mob gets to decide who has and doesn't have freedom, one day there will be a mob trying to take away yours. It's wrong.

You all should know better than to try and engage Snakebyte in a political discussion by now.  History shows he only ever shows up in threads like these when he thinks he can score an easy "ha ha take that liberals" moment and then skitters off before he's forced to actually say anything substantive

I am a liberal so have no interest in saying 'ha ha take that liberals'. If you read my original post it pretty much denounced everyone. Fuck off with this ad hominem bullshit, I've done nothing to justify character assassination from you. Jesus fucking christ.

General comments:

I'm a pedantic asshole. I delve into the details of things out of habit, and this means people miss what I'm saying when I get too specific, so I want to make one thing really clear. I am not calling a protest where people died by having someone drive a car into them intentionally was peaceful. I am saying another layer to this whole event is going to be the legal conflict between the alt-right and the state of Virginia, and I'm pretty sure the law is on their side, even if common sense is not. It's just an academic side point. Another layer to the shit sundae that was the entire event. It's important to mention because it means that, legally, there will be more rallies like this, and the world will probably keep going to shit. This is not support. This is me doing my best to try to figure out where the world is going and let other people know.

I don't like it. I don't want it. I'm just trying to understand it so it doesn't catch me by surprise.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#69  August 15, 2017, 09:38:06 PM
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Well you should try to understand a bit harder then, since nowhere in that post did I slander you or or call you racist.
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

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Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#70  August 15, 2017, 09:39:25 PM
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    Im glad Snakebyte took the time off from from considering the EU a facist state

What is this then? I've never made any comments about the EU or fascism on this forum. Is that not what racists believe? Is that not exactly what you're trying to do?

You're accusing me of believing horrible shit that I don't even remotely believe.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#71  August 15, 2017, 09:44:26 PM
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Trump DID condemn the far right, both implicitly in his first statement and explicitly in his second. Condemning everyone involved includes condemning the far right.

About that, he should've called them out by name. You can't preach about "radical Islamic terrorism" and then say nothing when a far-rightest does the same heinous act. It just looks like a limp-dicked effort to passify his small support base. And it didn't work, David Duke ripped him anyway, we're not talking about reasonable people.
Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:48:04 PM by Niitris
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#72  August 15, 2017, 09:47:15 PM
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What is this then? I've never made any comments about the EU or fascism on this forum. Is that not what racists believe? Is that not exactly what you're trying to do?

You're accusing me of believing horrible shit that I don't even remotely believe.
That was alluding to some stuff you said back in another thread. Which I think was originally about Trump but got derailed to be about more stuff. I'l try to dig it up to check.

That doesn't still have anything do with racism though. I think you should check what that word means.
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

"Okay, okay. So you put a Nazi on the Moon. Fuck you, Moon."
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#73  August 15, 2017, 09:48:14 PM
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They were voted in because states that voted Obama in 2012 flipped for economic concerns.

White supremacist movements are fringe, this one incident horrible as it is, doesn't change that.
Bannon is a white supremacist. Trump is brainless and doesn't know left from right from wrong but he listens to him.
Is that not what racists believe?
??? That makes no sense, saying the EU may be slightly fascist has fuck all to do with racism (or whatever he was referring to, I don't remember what it was, and whether you said it or not, I don't care). Do you not even know the fucking definition of racism or what
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Trump DID condemn the far right, both implicitly in his first statement and explicitly in his second. Condemning everyone involved includes condemning the far right.
lol no, that argument is complete bullshit. Even the white supremacists themselves get that, as they were going on about Trump silently supporting them. He avoided outright saying it, he tried to equate the counter protest to the supremacist protest when the counter protest did nothing like what the supremacists did, and he only went with the second statement (2 days later) because of the fire he was under. And you very clearly see the difference between when he goes off script to say both sides are equally wrong and when he is forced to stick to the script word for word the second time.
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Everyone deserves freedom. If you take freedom away from anyone, you take it away from everyone. They are not 'my Nazi friends' and absolutely fuck you for saying that I support murderers and racists when I didn't do that in any way. If a mob gets to decide who has and doesn't have freedom, one day there will be a mob trying to take away yours. It's wrong.
Yeah, criminals and rapists and murderers also deserve freedom ! Because if some mob gets mad at a random mass murderer and take away his freedom, someday someone else will be mad at that mob and take away your freedom !
And if you don't like the comparison with murderers, also remember that stuff like defamation is subject to a lawsuit, even though it should fall under free speech by your standards. Hate speech doesn't even get that.
Hate speech should be a crime, as it is in most civilized countries. This shouldn't be fucking rocket science. It's batshit bonkers that anyone is still defending hate speech as free speech in a first world country. Yes, the US is batshit bonkers.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:52:23 PM by Byakko
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#74  August 15, 2017, 09:51:25 PM
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@Niitris: He did call them out by name the second time he spoke about it. As far as the first time, aside from the guy who drove the car into the crowd, the violence was on both sides so I thought it was right to denounce both sides. No one should get a free pass for attacking protestors with weapons, regardless of what they're protesting for. More pragmatically too, if he only calls one side out when two sides are at fault, this just lets the Nazis tell their followers about how the media singles them out. It fuels their fire.

This is a complex event that's getting boiled down to 'Nazis are bad and also fuck Trump because he didn't say exactly what I want him to say'. Really what's wrong is people attacking eachother with weapons in the streets. Everyone who does that is bad! Everyone who does it should be denounced.

@Mechy: If I actually said anything like that ever I owe you a complete apology and I'll delete the report if reports work like that, but it doesn't sound like anything I'd say and it's not a belief I hold.

@Byakko: I'm not gonna engage with you, it's not productive, you just froth about the things you hate. No point attempting to reason.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#75  August 15, 2017, 09:53:06 PM
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Says the guy defending racists and neo nazis. You would reach a Godwin point if this wasn't already about actual neo nazis waving the Nazi flag.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#76  August 15, 2017, 09:53:59 PM
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Thanks for proving my point, Byakko. I am in no way defending racists or neo nazis.

Have your insane fact-twisting tantrum if you want, as you've proven over and over again facts don't matter to you. You'll just lie and say whatever you want.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#77  August 15, 2017, 09:56:51 PM
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You keep deflecting by claiming you're not defending neo nazis and only defending free speech (that happens to be about neo nazis) and playing devil's advocate by nitpicking on the law and saying "technically, it's legal". Everybody fully understands that. But we also all fully know that that defense is bullshit. We're telling you it should be illegal and everyone else outside of the US (and you) understands that. Fuck off with your nitpicks about what the law officially says and how everyone has rights.
This isn't just me, this is the rest of the fucking world.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#78  August 15, 2017, 09:58:43 PM
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Some tweet said:
TRUMP: Mexicans are bad
TRUMP: Muslims are bad
TRUMP: Media are bad
EVERYONE: what about Nazis?
TRUMP: let's not single anyone out
That’s when I thought, “good grief”
Just ain’t my belief
Until I saw the holes
Inside his hand
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#79  August 15, 2017, 10:01:13 PM
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You keep deflecting by claiming you're not defending neo nazis and only defending free speech (that happens to be about neo nazis) and playing devil's advocate by nitpicking on the law and saying "technically, it's legal". Everybody fully understands that. But we also all fully know that that defense is bullshit. We're telling you it should be illegal and everyone else outside of the US (and you) understands that. Fuck off with your nitpicks about what the law officially says and how everyone has rights.
This isn't just me, this is the rest of the fucking world.

ITT: Byakko thinks he speaks for billions of people.

'Fuck off with how everyone has rights'.

ITT: Byakko, on the side against equal rights.
Re: White Supremacists Protest in Virginia
#80  August 15, 2017, 10:07:31 PM
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ITT: Byakko thinks he speaks for billions of people.
Did you already forget the part where a whole bunch of countries have a law against hate speech ? Or is that some more fact that you're just disregarding because it doesn't fit your point ? Yes, the rest of the world does, in fact, think hate speech should be illegal, and they've made it so. Go defend the freedom of mass murderers and terrorists and rapists or whatever, it'll be less obnoxious than defending neo nazis the free speech of neo nazis.
Also, I said fuck off with your nitpicks about how everyone has rights, not fuck off about everyone having rights. Learn to read and don't twist the things I say kthx.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 10:11:37 PM by Byakko