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Death Battle (And sprite fight animations) (Read 1915678 times)

Started by Long John Killer, April 09, 2015, 03:59:16 AM
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Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2641  September 14, 2021, 02:24:27 AM
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I had a very nice, long response to start a discussion on that, then the page accidently refreshed and I really don't want to retype all that.  So to frustratingly summarize, yeah, we've had this discussion before on this same topic.  I'm not looking to aggressively put them down over their faults, but they are still faults and it's explicitly what they're trying to sell as a series that stands out amongst other similar shows that I'm finding fault in, so yeah, I feel it would be dishonest to not call them out on it, minor as it may be.  It's not calamitous or anything, just.....annoying.  It's not like I'm giving up on the show, I'm still here after all.  I just look at where they can improve.

And it's not like they haven't.  They're not the same back in the first few seasons after it moved on from just Ben doing the research in a week per character where if you disagreed with them, you were factually wrong.  That's a good thing.  But it can always be better.  And after all this whole topic of the show is meant to be argumentative, not definitive.

Anyways, one other caveat to Reverse Flash's time jumping with Black specifically that I'm reminded of, not that I ever delved into the fandom topic myself since I never really got into the Future Trunks arc of Super, is that I recall hearing a bunch during and after its run is that canonically Black's time travel mishaps break Dragon Ball's own rules on time travel.  Essentially what he did do, he could not do by their own admission, and the series brushes it under the rug.  Why that is, I dunno.  I just know the staff realized by the end the huge mess they made so they had Zeno erase the entire arc out of existence to never revisit it again.  Perhaps someone more up to date on Dragon Ball, Super specifically, and its time mechanics can explain why Black is so broken?
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2642  September 14, 2021, 03:06:08 AM
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If I'm being honest, it's the "very long response" that's nine tenths of the problem.  To be perfectly blunt, it's becoming harder and harder to come into this thread and be able to actually discuss Death Battle in any kind of productive - or even enjoyable - manner when every time I do, I first have to scroll through an entire YA novel detailing all of the different ways the most recent episode has disappointed you and how the next one is going to.

I fully understand where you're coming from, I do.  But just... chill a little bit, you know?
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2643  September 14, 2021, 03:49:39 AM
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Fine.  Fair enough.  I'll reel it in.

But said discussion that you want me to dial back is also exactly what you're asking for, realize.  There's just a lot to say on the matter.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2644  September 14, 2021, 03:55:28 AM
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I know this is Thawne and not Hunter Zolomon, but even so, does Black even stand a chance?
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2645  September 14, 2021, 06:25:08 AM
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This might be one of the few battles that I've seen (and I've seen all of them) where I can honestly say that I have absolutely no knowledge on either character to make a sound call.

Is Reverse Flash as capable as the Flash is? He probably has the same skill set, but does he have the insane time and reality warping powers that Barry Allen Flash has?

And what about Goku Black? He does have an SSJ form, but it is powerful enough to withstand what Reverse Flash can do?
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2646  September 15, 2021, 01:20:55 AM
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The transformations introduced in Super don't have official multipliers as I recall, though we can all assume the minimum is Blue is God times 10.  So it's hard to gauge what Super Saiyan Rose's ultimate potential is.  But by comparison to regular Goku's power up to the point that Zamasu took over his body, if I'm reading Death Battle's own math correctly, he would be minimally x9 universal at base, x90 universal as a SSJ, x180 at SSJ2 and x3600 universal at SSJ3.  To which Super Saiyan God is an unknown degree above SSJ3 beyond being completely untouchable, to which then you get your Blue/Rose form which is SSJG x10.

So essentially whatever Goku Black's potential will be is > 9 universes (x 3600(x10)).  I think.

To say nothing of course of Dragon Ball Heroes' nonsense power levels they make up on the fly to sell new toys.  SSJ4 keeps getting passive upgrades to being on par with whatever new monster or transformation form is at hand, because Xeno Goku and Xeno Vegeta are just SO impressive and blah blah blah.  Black is even more ridiculous there, but so far they haven't taken Heroes into consideration and I agree with that decision.

You also have that little bit of weirdness at the second episode of Goku Black's reveal where him in base and still even just learning how to make proper use of Goku's body.....also stood on par fighting against good guy Goku as a Super Saiyan.  The fight was cut short and Black was yoinked out of there against everyone's will so they COULD brush that under the rug that Black would have lost in the long run without knowing how to transform and good guy Goku was just doing his naive thing about fighting fair and evenly which is why he didn't kill Black, but.....ehh, sure didn't seem that way.
Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 01:30:53 AM by Long John Killer
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2647  September 15, 2021, 02:04:34 AM
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So, from what I'm reading there (Thanks Long John Killer!).. Goku Black is as strong as SSG Blue Goku, if not stronger?

Yikes.

But.. my biggest issue here is this: Does Goku Black have anything in his arsenal that can counter the Speed Force? I figure that since Reverse Flash is basically 'Evil Flash from the future', he would have the same ability to tap into the Speed Force like the other versions of the Flash. This gives him a HUGE home field advantage.

To get back to the last battle for a second or two here - I feel like the battle between Batman and Iron Man came down to one thing: Who is better at adapting on the fly? Everyone knows that if given time, Batman could beat anyone and it was shown that he can think on the fly.. but Batman is considerably much better when given time to plan and that's not a luxury you get in Death Battle. On the other hand, Iron Man is more then capable of thinking on the fly and that helped here.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2648  September 15, 2021, 02:12:09 AM
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Rose is literally just Super Saiyan Blue, the exact same form, with a different color for merchandising effect.  The color difference reasoning is handwaved in-universe as the difference between a legitimate Kai/God using both God ki and regular ki compared to a mortal using both God ki and your stock basic.  Otherwise it's just there because pink is flashy and matches with black well.  Anything Goku and Vegeta could do prior to the Tournament of Power, which really only differs at all for Vegeta, Black can exactly do as well.

Black's time jumping doesn't particularly at face value counter the Speed Force, but it does also break logic and what they can actually do in their universes, so we'll just have to wait and see how much that helps.  Ultimately, the main thing Reverse Flash has over Black in the time department is Black's time travel is not a natural ability.  It comes from the ring he's wearing.  If you can break that, he's stuck.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2649  September 15, 2021, 06:21:34 PM
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Reverse Flash has the advantage that he has the better time manipulating powers, he is one of the rare indiviudals who can rewrite history without time paradoxes and without creating split timelines etc. Time Paradoxes only occur if others try to fix what he did. He is also as far as I know mostly immune to Time Paradoxes.

Thats one of the Most Broken Powers in the DC universe.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2650  September 15, 2021, 06:35:00 PM
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Reverse Flash is definitely faster and can do a lot of hex shit,but I think Black is just stronger,basing it off the Broly vs Hulk fight and their math on anime Base Goku being equivalent to Battle of Gods SSG Goku which his battle with Beerus sended ripple shockwaves in universe,they are gonna use same SSJ3 multiplier for minumum power output and then add onto the fact that SSB Goku is even stronger and the fact Black kicked his ass,also Base Black was keeping up with SSJ and maybe 2 Goku pretty well so he might even be way stronger in this math,not to mention how Black wasnt erased from timeline despite being Hakai-ed by Beerus,meaning that time manipulation might not work so well,I think All Black needs is to land a hit,His Zenkai Boost unlike others seems to not need being through a near death experience and can just increasingly make him stronger,Idk how Durable or unkillable Reverse Flash is,If Black can just hit him with that dimension cuting scythe,he is done.tho question is will he be able to land an hit tho
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2651  September 15, 2021, 11:13:49 PM
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Being (what seems like) the only guy who knows a lot about Reverse Flash/Zoom/Eobard Thawne/Hunter Zolomon, and Goku Black equally, I can definitely say Reverse Flash is in fact faster (no shit) than Goku Black. That's it. If you're the fastest, then you're the first at everything. So a one-hit KO move wins the battle. Does Reverse Flash have a OHKO? Maybe. He could mercilessly fuck the timeline but I really don't think he's dumb enough to get himself trapped in a paradox, unless he is actually immune to paradoxes (holy shit that's OP). 'Cause he could just kill Goku Black/Zamasu before he was born. Goku Black doesn't have the experience of raping continuities, so unless he doesn't underestimate Thawne/Zolomon and tries to kill him right away, he's gonna have some trouble keeping up with him in the long run. And all of that is assuming they've met each other before in any capacity. As far as I know, they aren't making some story about how Reverse Flash and Goku Black ended up in the same battlefield, so they are most definitely gonna have an interesting excuse as to why Goku Black won. There's no way they're gonna bastardize one of these characters so that the other wins. Even though I have my doubts...
Apparently you can taste your own spinal fluid.... I hope Rudy Tomjanovich tasted applesauce down there...
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2652  September 15, 2021, 11:45:30 PM
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The point on Beerus erasing Zamasu from existence yet Goku Black continuing to exist is a good point to bring up.  That may negate Reverse Flash's whole ace in the hole.  Even if he does eliminate a prior Zamasu, Goku Black should still continue to exist.  I don't remember WHY that was the case and I don't particularly want to rewatch Super, never mind my least favorite arc, but I'm assuming it has something to do with Black being labeled a whole new being thus his history begins at the wish to swap his and Goku's bodies around.  So the earliest Reverse Flash should go to following his life in reverse would be.....here?



Which hey, that IS an extremely weaker Goku Black to the rest of the series when he figures out how to use that body's powers.....but it's still a Saiyan Beyond God base form Goku Black, that whole x9 universal scaling and whatnot.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2653  September 16, 2021, 12:01:37 AM
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One thing about scaling Goku Black to Goku Classic is that, from what I understand, it's someone else controlling Goku's body and who doesn't have full mastery of Goku's abilities.  It seems like there's a pattern of him not fully understanding how to utilize a saiyan's power until an actual saiyan shows up and kicks his ass six ways to Sunday with it.

If it came down to who's more capable of thinking on their feet and adapting mid-battle, I don't imagine Reverse Flash would allow Goku Black the time to come up with any kind of strategy or figure out a new power.  And if that's the case, I feel like it would ultimately come down to whether Goku Black is strong enough to just completely overwhelm Reverse Flash before the fight starts dragging out.  Which, I mean maybe he is?  I don't know.

:EDIT:  Dark Goku.  Nega Goku.  Ukog.



hsalF

Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 11:09:59 PM by Person Man
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2654  September 27, 2021, 07:52:51 PM
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Episode's out now.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Next episode's the joke one.  So temper your expectations and watch some Kool-Aid commercials I guess.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2655  September 28, 2021, 12:01:48 AM
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Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2656  September 28, 2021, 12:05:53 AM
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I don't quite get the idea that because D.C.'s universe is much larger then DBS's Universe 7, Reverse Flash is much stronger or something like that.. It seems like a BS reason to basically say that Reverse Flash is nigh unbeatable.

I do think that it made sense that once Goku Black lost his Time Ring, it was over for him - Reverse Flash is just that damned borked.

The next episode ought to be fun and one of those where you can basically just say 'screw it, let's have fun'.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2657  September 28, 2021, 12:29:11 AM
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Various series that deal with space travel and superpower antics have their own stipulations on how the universe works.  Many of them needlessly more complicated than need to be, but hey.  It just makes using the term "universe" unhelpful because it becomes an undefined term.  Dragon Ball's "Universe 7" for example isn't 9 times bigger than the degree we know our own.  It's the same size, plus 8 more layers of other realms.  The Beerus feet is only ever notable in that case because it gave visible notice to be affecting all of them at once.

In D.C.'s case, it's just that they run on the assumption that the universe has a finite end (I actually don't know the nitty gritty on their specification.  Do D.C. writers follow the endless expansion theory, the receding into nothingness one or the endless loop of Big Bangs?) but they've explored space so clearly they've reached its two end points and its X much greater than what we in reality know.

Some cases Death Battle takes these into account, some not, depends on how much its covered in the series itself and how well the topic is researched.  The Sailor Galaxia episode still bugs me as example because the series takes many strides to define their weird universe of being not expanding but infinite in all means and each individual star seed has a universe unto itself, but Death Battle took it as that series has essentially just our own universal scale and the changes are just ignorable anomalies.  Bleach would be one that would likely be assumed has a different universal scale, just not well defined because it's various planes of the afterlife that co-exist as another layer on top of the living.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2658  September 28, 2021, 12:45:56 AM
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the whole thing with Reverse Flash being compared to Goku Black's Multi Universal Strength is dumb,He  got fuckin killed by Dr.Manhattan in comics,Its just a weird take,they like literally picked up oldest feat he had or sth
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2659  September 28, 2021, 01:36:49 AM
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Various series that deal with space travel and superpower antics have their own stipulations on how the universe works.  Many of them needlessly more complicated than need to be, but hey.  It just makes using the term "universe" unhelpful because it becomes an undefined term.  Dragon Ball's "Universe 7" for example isn't 9 times bigger than the degree we know our own.  It's the same size, plus 8 more layers of other realms.  The Beerus feet is only ever notable in that case because it gave visible notice to be affecting all of them at once.

In D.C.'s case, it's just that they run on the assumption that the universe has a finite end (I actually don't know the nitty gritty on their specification.  Do D.C. writers follow the endless expansion theory, the receding into nothingness one or the endless loop of Big Bangs?) but they've explored space so clearly they've reached its two end points and its X much greater than what we in reality know.

Some cases Death Battle takes these into account, some not, depends on how much its covered in the series itself and how well the topic is researched.  The Sailor Galaxia episode still bugs me as example because the series takes many strides to define their weird universe of being not expanding but infinite in all means and each individual star seed has a universe unto itself, but Death Battle took it as that series has essentially just our own universal scale and the changes are just ignorable anomalies.  Bleach would be one that would likely be assumed has a different universal scale, just not well defined because it's various planes of the afterlife that co-exist as another layer on top of the living.

That's the unfortunate concession that has to be made when you start comparing universal and cosmic scale stuff in a series like this.  Each fictional universe plays by its own scale and its own set of rules, and the only metric we have to attempt to quantify any of it are the scale and rules of our own universe.  I imagine it's nigh-on impossible to settle on any set of mathematical constants that accurately represent these different universes as described in the story of origin while still allowing for relevant, comparable date to be gleaned.
I can see how it can be frustrating, but at the same time it's probably the best anyone can hope to do.

In regards to the next match, if Macho Man does not make extensive reference to being the cream of the crop then I'm calling shenanigans on the whole thing.
Re: Death Battle (And sprite fight animations)
#2660  September 28, 2021, 01:42:09 AM
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Slim Jim fueled Macho Man can manifest explosions amongst other shenanigans at a distance.  Kool-Aid guy ain't shit.