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Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013 (Read 136595 times)

Started by Cybaster, June 17, 2013, 11:47:21 am
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Omega

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#41  June 18, 2013, 10:00:00 am
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Great updates! İ am happy with the soundpatch for Vegeta. The ones from before were good but, felt like a parody to me. İt's Awesome to include patchs like that. Great work you guys.
Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 10:03:56 am by DJ Track

Cybaster

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#42  June 18, 2013, 10:05:14 am
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Thanks for the feedback and critics everybody. Noting everything down to fix in due time.

@Djoulz: :stare: never happened to me, and I have no idea how this could even happen...

@Killer Kong: Yeah, I understand your point of view, and can be unfair against some chars that rely on Turtling. Still, that's why we made it an EX move that deals very few damage. Goku Z2 vs Jmorphman's Guile is still not as bad a match-up as SSF4AE Cammy vs Dhalsim. :P

TTTTTsd

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#43  June 18, 2013, 10:55:27 am
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Eh, I can always change it to blockable on my end, as a cop out move! Hah-bah, whatever. At least you ain't killin me over it, yet. :3.

But are there truly grown men in this world?!

Joulz

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#44  June 18, 2013, 11:02:07 am
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@Cybaster: it happened again several times after i took those screens...it seems to happen when i press a button multiple times to quickly select characters & skip the vs screen.

_Data_Drain_

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#45  June 18, 2013, 01:03:08 pm
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Cybaster said, June 18, 2013, 10:05:14 am
@Killer Kong: Yeah, I understand your point of view, and can be unfair against some chars that rely on Turtling. Still, that's why we made it an EX move that deals very few damage. Goku Z2 vs Jmorphman's Guile is still not as bad a match-up as SSF4AE Cammy vs Dhalsim. :P
How do you know? Are you playing against a pro Guile, While using the best of Goku's abilities yourself?

Also... I agree with Killer Kong, that EX move seems a bit too good.


It seems odd to be able to so easily break someone's guard with something that's not a grapple...

Most unblockables have SOME lag to them. And it only costs 500 meter to use. Which is pretty easy to get. Most quicker unblockables are at least a super, and not an EX move.

Sure, there are air unblockables that are somewhat quick, but an unblockable that can so easily be used? While already having such safe moves to back it up? It's a bit much...

Balthazar

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#46  June 18, 2013, 01:53:25 pm
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After fighting against Vegeta with his AI for some bouts, I'd like to throw out that pretty much ALL his moves are super safe on block,
more then Goku even! Seriously, he was laying the no-pity smackdown on me. I was fighting with Gohan which isn't finished, but still,
I got clubbered. He can completely pin you down with his Air Machine Gun Temper, and while you're blocking the blasts,
he's completely safe until he lands and can continue pressuring you with attacks, all whilst giving you not even a split second to respond.

I like a fair challenge but he might need to be nerfed slightly, anyone else having that much trouble against him?

Cybaster

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#47  June 18, 2013, 02:25:59 pm
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I still think 500 power for a guard breaking move that deals only 50 damage and can't be combo'd from (aka combo finisher) is not totally broken. It sure is a very good move that forces turtlers to stop doing their stuff, but it's not like you could use it over and over again to kill your opponent easily.

Balthazar said, June 18, 2013, 01:53:25 pm
I like a fair challenge but he might need to be nerfed slightly, anyone else having that much trouble against him?
During the whole development of Vegeta, each time I gave some recovery time to a move, you told me to make it safer so it could be combo'd into something else and to avoid Vegeta getting punished.
Conclusion : your fault. Deal with it. :dealwithit:
PS : that's why I set his life to 950, against your initial will, because Vegeta felt like Shin Gouki. I should actually do like POTS and set it to 889 or something. :P

At this point, while we still tried to make Z2 chars balanced against other regular chars, due to the inner mechanics and safe moves, I feel Z2 chars are more balanced vs MVC chars than vs CVS chars. As long as Z2 chars are balanced between themselves, I think it's mostly fine.

I can still try to balance the moves more, but honestly, I don't feel like modifying all the moves of characters I feel are mostly finished, and actually change their gameplay completely.
(Plus, knowing Balthazar, he'll then complain that his dear Z2 chars are too weak and that I should switch back to the old powerful versions :P)
Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 02:33:17 pm by Cybaster

Duos.act

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#48  June 18, 2013, 02:38:23 pm
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I think it should be not comboable either if it's only 500 meter.  Or at the very least increase its start up.  For example, in Darkstalkers (Vampire Savior to be specific) Demitri has a really nasty level 2 SGS type move that can be hidden in blockstrings.  It's unblockable and quite fast, but if the other guy reacts on time he can jump it or guard cancel Demitri before he can connect with the move.

Cybaster

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#49  June 18, 2013, 02:43:39 pm
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Sounds fair. I'll give it a little more startup time for the next update, so Goku can't combo into it. Maybe something like 10 to 15 more startup ticks is good enough. I'll have to try stuff.

_Data_Drain_

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#50  June 18, 2013, 05:35:45 pm
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Balthazar said, June 18, 2013, 01:53:25 pm
After fighting against Vegeta with his AI for some bouts, I'd like to throw out that pretty much ALL his moves are super safe on block,
more then Goku even! Seriously, he was laying the no-pity smackdown on me. I was fighting with Gohan which isn't finished, but still,
I got clubbered. He can completely pin you down with his Air Machine Gun Temper, and while you're blocking the blasts,
he's completely safe until he lands and can continue pressuring you with attacks, all whilst giving you not even a split second to respond.

I like a fair challenge but he might need to be nerfed slightly, anyone else having that much trouble against him?
Yup. I've had a pretty tough time against him, and Goku.

Vegeta, while needing some unsafe moves. I feel his safeness is more reasonable then Goku's, since he is a glass canon. Though I do think at least his projectiles should be less safe when used up close...

Also, I'd like to note that it's REALLY hard to punish either one of them, even with 9's Melty Blood characters.

And sometimes in an AI VS AI match, Goku can beat Don Drago's Goenitz's boss mode.

Cazaki

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#51  June 18, 2013, 07:32:01 pm
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Glass cannon is a term that shouldn't be thrown around. I feel like Vegeta's "low health" isn't really major enough to balance them out. I've actually said before in beta testing that everything he does is ridiculously safe and not human-friendly. Now with AI this is being shown, haha.

Zingo

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#52  June 18, 2013, 07:37:59 pm
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Oh thank god!  Finally, AI for these guys so they aren't just punching bags!

Zer0degreez

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#53  June 18, 2013, 08:00:55 pm
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Going to be uploading a video fighting both of these AIs.really enjoyed the fights i had with both chars.
http://www.twitch.tv/zer0degr33z

I sometimes stream MUGEN. Join me!

BPTM2694

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#54  June 18, 2013, 08:32:12 pm
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-If you do the fully charged Genkidama on an opponent then push the opponent when they are dizzied by walking against them then the dizzy stars won't move with them.

-I have not managed to replicate this, but I had Mugen sitting on the title screen and the demo mode came up and it was Goku vs. Goku. One Goku started Chou Kamehameha as soon as the other one shot a ki blast and it messed up and there was just a trail of replicating ki blasts during the Chou Kamehameha super pause and it kept repeating the same ki blast noise over and over.
Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:01:06 pm by BPTM2694

TRUEMicah

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#55  June 18, 2013, 08:38:52 pm
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PRØJECT.13

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#56  June 18, 2013, 09:01:04 pm
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Another thing I forgot to mention for 'Geta,though once again unsure if it was intentional or not:

The level 2 and 3 GG finishers don't trigger super BG upon KO,nor does finishing with Final Flash.

TTTTTsd

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#57  June 18, 2013, 09:21:07 pm
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TRUEMicah said, June 18, 2013, 08:38:52 pm
Cazaki said, June 18, 2013, 07:32:01 pm
_Data_Drain_ said, June 18, 2013, 05:35:45 pm
Killer Kong said, June 18, 2013, 10:55:27 am
Goku and Vegeta's safeness was never a factor to me.
IMO, they're safer than some chars but not safe enough to be nerfed.  :S
I'm sorry but when every followup that doesn't send Goku somewhere else is safe on Dragon Fist, as in, not even a jab can hit after blockstun, I believe there to be something a bit off. Things don't have to be super unsafe or anything but the way they are right now is extremely excessive. It's polarizing, really. Oh before I forget, safety isn't always determined by animation times. Comboability can be kept, just reduce blockstun to a level. Stupa's training can help you measure your own frame data, it's a good tool.

But are there truly grown men in this world?!
Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:34:16 pm by Killer Kong

xPreatorianx1

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#58  June 19, 2013, 05:29:43 am
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Well I'll just do a copy and paste as I guarantee the AI hasn't changed enough to warrant me to test it out. (if it has changed at all.)

The AI looks pretty good so far but it needs to be tighter. Half the time the AI is trying to execute combos and fails miserably. The max combo I think the AI got was like a 6 hit. Considering Vegeta is still a combo oriented character (bar in mind that he's less of a combo char than Goku/SSJ Goku) he should be able to land the hits he wants. If he catches you in a combo it shouldn't be a matter of "timing." That's HUMAN error. Not machine error. The machine should be able to execute every command at a "pro human level" or higher. Meaning basic combos to even advanced combos should be a piece of cake for it.

But with this AI while it's challenging, it fails miserably on the combos. Which in turn makes you believe it's not even an AI but a novice human player.

EDIT: I mean every fighter I've ever played the AI could combo without any problems. It didn't "misstep" when it came to timings. So this AI shouldn't be any different. Yes it will ramp up the difficulty a bit, but not enough to change the "tier/status" of the AI level. Your just fixing what should be in there automatically. The whole point of an AI is that it can execute commands flawlessly and it also doubles as a sort of interactive tutorial for people to use in order to learn how to combo with that character. Think REU's Evil ken/Ryu. People watch the AI in order to figure out what basic attacks, specials, etc lead to combos. This should be no different. So for the AI to mess up the timing on basic combos means the people who use the AI as a tutorial won't know if it's a limitation of the character or just the AI screwing up.

So all I can report so far without downloading the chars is the AI. Good AI overall, but it should NOT mess up on combo timings. Again that's HUMAN error not MACHINE error. If the AI catches you in a combo, it should be able to land it's entire combo string (unless you as the player can counter it) without any missteps. But the video's I've seen all have the AI messing up with the timing. This isn't good at all.

Machines after all are for the most part, infallible things. Which means they should be able to utilize the commands they are given. You look to humans for errors in this department.

I'll give a better critique on the updates when I have had a chance to play them.

Sinnesloschen

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#59  June 19, 2013, 05:31:31 am
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My version of the above feedback is: their AI doesn't know how to do any good combos. It should. :(
Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

xPreatorianx1

Re: Goku Z2 and Vegeta Z2 - HUGE update - 17/06/2013
#60  June 19, 2013, 05:43:13 am
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C.A.N said, June 19, 2013, 05:31:31 am
My version of the above feedback is: their AI doesn't know how to do any good combos. It should. :(

Well then a quick AI patch update needs to be issued. If the AI can't fully utilize the char move set, what good does an AI do in the first place? The AI should be able to execute EVERY command that is available to it. Not "some" of them.
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