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Standard AI for all Characters  (Read 4672 times)

Started by Jeknel, September 08, 2007, 07:52:49 am
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Jeknel

Standard AI for all Characters
#1  September 08, 2007, 07:52:49 am
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Well friends,

This is my first post in this section, (I hope to be in the correct place)  ;P

I thought about initiating this discussion, because, like a regular user of M.U.G.E.N., I have been (like all of we) with many Chars in my way, Many good ones, many bad ones, and some that began like good ideas, unfortunatelly, by lack of time or interest they were not finished correctly,

 ???  Did you remember Spawn maded using captain america sprite-base?, you can found it on mugenesis I think, that was a really nice spite edit, but the creator never finish him.

And of course, also exist many cheap Chars, with artificial intelligences virtually impossible to beat (OK, you can do it, if you use the same char to fight) , many of them abusing of the "NotHitBy" to made unblockeable trows or hits, (I really explode of anger when fighting against Evil Ryu, Ken and Dan. >:( NOTE: they are excellent creations and, in fact, the Evil versions must be harder to defeat but, someone's are a really pain in the... :-X) at the moment exist so many creators, but, never has been a Standard Artificial intelligence for their creations.

In fact, some good creators offer us in the package of the Char, different CMD files, in order to choose the AI that better accommodates to us (like Loganir in their WonderWoman, Sandman or Mighty Thor creations, god bless you for that LOGANIR).

OK, after to boring you whit this long introduction, I ask to you my friends, You think if is possible, or feasible to create or decide for a standard  Artificial intelligences, for the Chars?

Without spirit to stop or to marginalize the creativity of the creators, I mean, just fix a level for A.I.'s, some competitive for standard chars, will be fun for all of us, and why not? maybe also fix the amount of damage for the Supers & Hypers. we can Include an CMD with our best AI too, This could be a nice way to guide new creators.

What do you think.

Please Don't hate me!!
[img resized=1 width=350 height=100 alt=" border="0]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s208/Jeknel/firma-1.gif[/img]

Elix

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#2  September 08, 2007, 08:11:44 am
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While each character has its own set of moves and attacks with their own state number, it is possible to create AI for standard actions and attacks. Walking, running, jumping, blocking. But you can find a character which have unstandard way of activating these states. So this standard AI won't suit him. As for attacks, each character has, as I said, an individual set of attacks with different state numbers. MUGEN standards only define 9 standard attacks (weak, medium, strong attacks for standing, crouching, aerial) although some authors still have their own state numbers to them. So the best that can be done is setting an AI for these 9 attacks (without considering combos - this is agan individual for each character) and standard movements. So I don't see how a standard AI can help you.

hjk

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#3  September 08, 2007, 08:12:30 am
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@ Jeknel

Well if I interpretted what you said correctly, what you are requesting seems to be balance which would yield a... NO!!


Technically, you could say taht teh Default AI is just a standard AI but that can be cancelled out by how the creation's definitions are set up.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.

Elix

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#4  September 08, 2007, 08:19:19 am
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And about AI activation. While I would use WinAne's AI activation method, many other creators use their own. So you must either study that creator's method, or remove him and implement WinAne's one, which in both cases consumes time. There's no magic button im MUGEN. © Cyanide

hjk

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#5  September 08, 2007, 08:55:20 am
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Elix said, September 08, 2007, 08:19:19 am
And about AI activation. While I would use WinAne's AI activation method, many other creators use their own. So you must either study that creator's method, or remove him and implement WinAne's one, which in both cases consumes time. There's no magic button im MUGEN. © Cyanide

Something about that method can run into problems which I haven't gotten around to analyzing yet.

Maybe it is PotS's slight adaptation of the code but it is fairly common for that activation method to not trigger at all, and leave PotS's characters, especially (and even @ndroide's God Rugal), in the constant charge, default AI, simply inactive state. :omg:


I don't know why just yet.


Whenever I use that code, I add the addition of Waru's, ihoo's, or Chin-ya's method, as well.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.

Elix

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#6  September 08, 2007, 09:18:35 am
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  • "Moyashi tsuku shite yaru..."

Jeknel

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#7  September 08, 2007, 09:57:30 am
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OK pals   ;D

I understood about the different ways to activate an AI, and the difference betwen their own state number for moves in chars, maybe I can't explain my point like I want,(maybe for my poor english, sorry  :'()  I'm not trying to made a "master code" for all the chars, my request is most about to search and found a kind of balance between their abilities & powers.

in AI, in Times, in amount of damage of helpers, projectiles, Hypers, that can I said with "Standard"  :S

 Why?

Who of you can beat all chars with a normal char (like GGN Ryu or some version of zangief that you find, or better, try using Norimaro by akiraz (without modifying by yourself cheaters ;P) you can do it? because I don't, I need to use a evil char to beat another evil one always? ,that isn´t fun) just leave mugen a little while in demo mode in order to see the difference between one chars and others.

Im agree about the idea of one characters are more powerful than others (Evil, Orochi, Shin, ETC) but, can I see again the norimaro Ending in my life? only so he is incapable to touch shin gouki ?  --; yeah this is a bad joke, well I'm just trying to explain my point.

greetings to that keep awake reading my crap (02:55am in my city right now)
[img resized=1 width=350 height=100 alt=" border="0]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s208/Jeknel/firma-1.gif[/img]

Elix

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#8  September 08, 2007, 10:29:47 am
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Then you shouldn't have named your topic like you did. This isn't about AI, this is about coding. A lot of people complain about the lack (or complete absense) of balace in MUGEN, but this complaining will lead nowhere. In other words, these kinds of topics are useless :( Why? Find one creator who's currently making his Shin/Evil/G. version of a char and try to convince him to make his character beatable using Norimaro.

Jeknel

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#9  September 09, 2007, 12:28:30 am
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Elix said, September 08, 2007, 10:29:47 am
In other words, these kinds of topics are useless :( Why? Find one creator who's currently making his Shin/Evil/G. version of a char and try to convince him to make his character beatable using Norimaro.

Useless Uhh?  :(

Well is a mode to see the things,  but I don't really think, this kind of topics are in totally useless, maybe, like Comunity we can start makinga a call to offer in our creations different CMD's versions with custom levels of AI's like LOGANIR does.

NoAI               default in Mugen Options configuration level
ModeredAI       A competitive version, but not invencible
BestAI            the best that you can do it


And, what about damage levels?     some chars uses a nonsense amount in their attacks, it could name some, but I do not want to hurt susceptibilities   ;P

[img resized=1 width=350 height=100 alt=" border="0]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s208/Jeknel/firma-1.gif[/img]

Elix

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#10  September 09, 2007, 12:41:12 am
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Jeknel said, September 09, 2007, 12:28:30 am
like Comunity we can start makinga a call to offer in our creations different CMD's versions with custom levels of AI's like LOGANIR does.

NoAI               default in Mugen Options configuration level
ModeredAI       A competitive version, but not invencible
BestAI            the best that you can do it
Those who care about it they do it. Like me. Those who doesn't, they don't. I was saying that these kind of topics are useless basing on my experience: people are lazy and difficult to change. Again:
Elix said, September 08, 2007, 10:29:47 am
Find one creator who's currently making his Shin/Evil/G. version of a char and try to convince him to take your point.

felineki

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#11  September 09, 2007, 01:17:04 am
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Jeknel said, September 09, 2007, 12:28:30 am
And, what about damage levels?     some chars uses a nonsense amount in their attacks, it could name some, but I do not want to hurt susceptibilities   ;P
In ST, it was commonplace for a Super to do ~50% damage. Who's to say what an "acceptable" damage level is and what isn't?

Leon Belmont

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#12  September 09, 2007, 02:49:50 am
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felineki said, September 09, 2007, 01:17:04 am
Jeknel said, September 09, 2007, 12:28:30 am
And, what about damage levels?     some chars uses a nonsense amount in their attacks, it could name some, but I do not want to hurt susceptibilities   ;P
In ST, it was commonplace for a Super to do ~50% damage. Who's to say what an "acceptable" damage level is and what isn't?
Well, in ST, characters only had 1 power stock that reset every round and also took more time to fill up than just a standard 1000 power in comparison to MUGEN. Of course they would've made the supers be a bit more worth the time and effort, right?

hjk

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#13  September 09, 2007, 03:23:08 am
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Elix said, September 08, 2007, 10:29:47 am
Then you shouldn't have named your topic like you did. This isn't about AI, this is about coding. A lot of people complain about the lack (or complete absense) of balace in MUGEN, but this complaining will lead nowhere. In other words, these kinds of topics are useless :( Why? Find one creator who's currently making his Shin/Evil/G. version of a char and try to convince him to make his character beatable using Norimaro.


I gotta admit that did come off kind of harsh  :-\, but I also have a tendency to come off that way when I really don't mean it.


But yeah, Jeknel, he's right. Topics like this have been made many times (even by me).
:sigh: - we have to accept that it just won't happen.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.

Cyanide

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#14  September 09, 2007, 06:03:52 am
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It won't happen like this. Damages will only tone down and become reasonable when you convince people not to praise or download the super overpowered shit. If people give terrible feedback to things like charlie with raging demon and shinkuuhadouken then those characters become less commonplace.

Change mentality gradually is the only way to go.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Bastard Mami

Re: Standard AI for all Characters
#15  September 09, 2007, 04:47:16 pm
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not to mention that damge is only a small part of the game, easy to et up infinites brak up any character, no matter how low the damage is. also, a single broken move can break the whole character, like certain kof character's that have completely invincible rolls, it is just a matter to roll from a distance and buffer a grab for the moment the roll ends.
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