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Gameplay mechanics (Read 42076 times)

Started by JustNoPoint, April 02, 2014, 04:19:27 pm
Gameplay mechanics
#1  April 02, 2014, 04:19:27 pm
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3 Punches and 3 Kicks

-dashing.
-air/ground recovery after knockdown (though more cinematic then the standard 'flips and floats'.
-SFA3 juggle system
-air blocking
-throw attempt/whiff animation, done by fwd/bwd+2P / 2K or LP+LK
-safe fall/throw escape/throw recovery).
-Guard meter/guard crush.
-Stun meter.
-!NEW!-Comeback Technique (after successfully performing a safe fall/throw escape, come right back into p2's face and counter). ~ There are two kinds of Comeback Techniques. Offensive, and Defensive. Offense costs 1 bar. Defense costs half a bar. Offense =D+2K Defense = DF or DB+2P during fall/land from fall
-SFA's Zero Counter (costs 1 bar).
-SFA2's Custom Combo (costs 1 bar, like EX's Excel Combo. No 2 bar/3 bar version). Length of time could change depending on super selected as well MP+MK
-SFEX's Guard Break (slow, unblockable attack costs 1 bar).
-EX Specials
-Multiple Super Combos for each character, but only 1 available ingame due to a selection (similar to SF3) different supers would allow more stock and/or different length super bars
-Super moves get a more powerful version when lifebar is low
-HP + HK for taunt
-start for movelist/pause
Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 01:57:48 am by Just No Point
Re: Game mechanics
#2  April 02, 2014, 04:26:52 pm
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Thinking about it, Zero Counter costing 1 bar would also be weird when you have that single, long SF3 Superbar. You'll be completely out of stock after using one! Thought that might be your own fault, then.
Re: Game mechanics
#3  April 02, 2014, 04:30:48 pm
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Did I forget anything we may have added since the list was 1st composed and agreed on?

Some thoughts/notes

SFA3 juggle system should be slightly tweaked to allow a limiter. In SFA3 some characters can keep the opponent in a state so they can never recover in the air. The way the SFA3 juggle system worked was that as soon as the attacker went into an idle state for even 1 tick on the ground while juggling the opponent had the opportunity to recover. So the limiter should allow something (damage? number of hits?) to finally allow the opponent to recover.

Throws - I don't see a reason why we cannot have throws done both ways. 2p/2k and LP+LK

Zero Counter- f+2P or 2K while blocking? QCB+attack?

Guard Break- requires a super stock, deals massive guard damage, slow, done with what motions? d+MP+MK?

Taunts should give some kind of special property like SF3?
Re: Game mechanics
#4  April 02, 2014, 04:32:01 pm
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Thinking about it, Zero Counter costing 1 bar would also be weird when you have that single, long SF3 Superbar. You'll be completely out of stock after using one! Thought that might be your own fault, then.

Since we have so many things needing super bars I think the lowest amount of bars a super art should have is 2. The highest would be 5?
Re: Game mechanics
#5  April 02, 2014, 04:39:29 pm
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I think I can agree on having 2 bars as the minimum, so even if you pack your major wallop Shin Shoryuken,
you can dish out a Comeback Technique or a Guard Break and not be completely emptied.

5 sounds like a lot though, I think 3 as the maximum is just fine.

Sounds good about putting a limiter to the SFA3 juggle system (though I, personally, am not all that familiar with it (read;not a pro with it).

Guard break with d+MP+MK sounds good to me, and I would suggest d+SP+SK for the Comeback Technique.

Both throw commands can be implemented if they don't complicate with other commands (and ofc only if both commands perform the throw attempt that can whiff when too far away).
Re: Game mechanics
#6  April 02, 2014, 04:42:43 pm
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With 2 bars being the smallest now I think 4 should at least be the maximum. BUT TBH that will be determined in the balancing of the super moves themselves I suppose. Another good thing about the super art itself is the desperation aspect you added to it. A super could be really worth keeping if the desperation version is really awesome.
Re: Game mechanics
#7  April 02, 2014, 04:44:13 pm
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Re: Game mechanics
#8  April 02, 2014, 04:48:57 pm
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I just want to note: DIZAMN! Balthazar. Your stars are blinging in this board with your added mod status =p

I don't think this is worth the effort to balance
Good, less work and idea engineering!!!
Re: Game mechanics
#9  April 02, 2014, 04:50:12 pm
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Super art should be 2 and 3 for the maximum like Balthazar said. 5 is just too much.

What about the dashing? Just including ground dashing or also air dashing? Air dashing could be like pushing/forcing yourself to go forward on air like in some VS Games. Also what about KO's? Not mentioning any of it? This game could use a normal K.O and a finest K.O like in the CVS Games.

Re: Game mechanics
#10  April 02, 2014, 05:03:44 pm
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No SF game has had airdash. The mechanics come from SF1-4 and EX. As for FINEST KO, I haven't thought about it. It's not ruled out I guess. But not a priority either. That's not really a mechanic. That's a special extra like the crumple anim from getting killed by a jab or sexy KO
Re: Game mechanics
#11  April 02, 2014, 05:20:41 pm
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suggestions: remove guard bar. i find it superfluous if youre having guard break. just buff throws/make them faster. if you could use sf2 throws and throw softening thatd be great, haha (i wouldnt recommend putting both throw breaks and recovery from being thrown at the same time.)

if youre using a3 style recovery... the reason why some characters can keep them juggled was mostly because of vc. a lot of the time the player could tech, except that during the tech the time invulnerability lasts is shorter than the time control is given. with a2 ccs, i think that already cuts out a lot of the bs you might have remembered in a3 matches. but who knows?
on that note, stun would be too much with both ccs and a3 juggles, personally

dunno what the comeback technique is. is it an attack? (edit:nvm)
Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:39:53 pm by c001357
Re: Game mechanics
#12  April 02, 2014, 06:13:36 pm
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I haven't even made use of my admin possibilities yet :P

Yeah airdashing sounds very off, shouldn't be anywhere near this. I think I can live with 4 superbars maximum (will there be 4-bar supers? madness!).
Re: Game mechanics
#13  April 02, 2014, 06:28:20 pm
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suggestions: remove guard bar. i find it superfluous if youre having guard break. just buff throws/make them faster. if you could use sf2 throws and throw softening thatd be great, haha (i wouldnt recommend putting both throw breaks and recovery from being thrown at the same time.)
Guard Break requires a super stock which can be pretty limited depending on your super art you choose. It doesn't take a hit like focus. Also I have a strong dislike for turtlers and this bar helps prevent that =p Both throw recoveries were in SFA3.

Quote
if youre using a3 style recovery... the reason why some characters can keep them juggled was mostly because of vc. a lot of the time the player could tech, except that during the tech the time invulnerability lasts is shorter than the time control is given. with a2 ccs, i think that already cuts out a lot of the bs you might have remembered in a3 matches. but who knows?
on that note, stun would be too much with both ccs and a3 juggles, personally

A lot of these do involve the CC but they seem to continue after it's over and some don't seem to need it at all. Though it doesn't seem to show those very long so maybe they are not infinite?

Quote
dunno what the comeback technique is. is it an attack? (edit:nvm)
Added linkage to the 1st post as well for new readers.

All thoughts in this are solely my opinion btw. The mechanics could still change. We want to get a quick mock up Ryu made with all the mechanics to really see how they feel together. Renzo has volunteered to code him up using a different Ryu as a base. Probably POTS's

(will there be 4-bar supers? madness!).
Hah, I doubt it. The only characters in SF3 that had multi level super arts were Akuma and Oro. More may have that in this game but I doubt they would get a bar that went up to 4 with their super arts =p

I was thinking of characters like maybe Dan and Sean or maybe Fei Long's counter super art or if a character has a particularly tough to use/hit super.
Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 06:36:10 pm by Just No Point
Re: Game mechanics
#14  April 02, 2014, 07:24:10 pm
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I agree with c00l in that with a custom combo and a3 juggles that stun might be excessive
Re: Game mechanics
#15  April 02, 2014, 08:15:39 pm
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suggestions: remove guard bar. i find it superfluous if youre having guard break. just buff throws/make them faster. if you could use sf2 throws and throw softening thatd be great, haha (i wouldnt recommend putting both throw breaks and recovery from being thrown at the same time.)
Guard Break requires a super stock which can be pretty limited depending on your super art you choose. It doesn't take a hit like focus. Also I have a strong dislike for turtlers and this bar helps prevent that =p Both throw recoveries were in SFA3.

hence the suggestion of sf2 style throws- theyre quite strong, because they cant whiff and can only be softened. the only reason guard bar was introduced in a3 was because throws were weaker

A lot of these do involve the CC but they seem to continue after it's over and some don't seem to need it at all. Though it doesn't seem to show those very long so maybe they are not infinite?

thats his crouch cancel; the player is bypassing the neutral state by crouching as soon as he lands then cancelling the crouch by jumping which is how the combo continues.
Re: Game mechanics
#16  April 02, 2014, 08:43:34 pm
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Quote
hence the suggestion of sf2 style throws- theyre quite strong, because they cant whiff and can only be softened. the only reason guard bar was introduced in a3 was because throws were weaker
They're too strong. Everytime I play SF2 I get thrown like crazy. Normally while I'm trying to throw. Don't make me endure SF2 throws in this game please!!! >:-(
SFA and SF4 have good throw systems. Both of them are slower. I think SFA3 is 4 ticks and SF4 is 1 or 2? I completely forget SF3's throw speed offhand.
(SF2 is one of my least favorites in the series though.... heresy I know I know ;_;)

Quote
thats his crouch cancel; the player is bypassing the neutral state by crouching as soon as he lands then cancelling the crouch by jumping which is how the combo continues.
Ah, that was it! I guess as long as we make sure we remove this the A3 juggle system should be okay?
Re: Game mechanics
#17  April 06, 2014, 01:59:37 am
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SF2's throw rewards very good teching(if you use ST as a base.) Frankly I agree with c00 on this one. Techning in ST is just a quick input and honestly, I think it'd work the best.

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Re: Game mechanics
#18  April 06, 2014, 02:09:25 am
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I just really hate the 1 tick throw system. But we can make that a config option as well. When testing Ryu we'll try both kinds of throw methods. The mechanics are not set in stone till we see them all in action working together in the template. Then we can decide what stays default. What goes, and what should be tweaked. (We = community feedback + core quality control users) It's not up to me to say yes or no.
Re: Game mechanics
#19  April 06, 2014, 02:17:42 am
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Hate the 1 tick throw system, I'd rather go with something like SFIII/IV. There's a reason why latter fighting games have throws like that (Heck, every single decent fighting game uses this system nowadays. KOF XIII is pretty much the only one that still uses the 1 tick throws without whiff animation).

Less user input error chances (Want to get a close strong attack but pressed forward next to an enemy? Get a throw instead!) and you have to compromise when you want to do a throw (More risk, more reward. You input a throw command and you ONLY do that so there's no safe spot where you either throw or attack, you're either attempting to throw and success or miss and get exposed for a few frames).
Re: Game mechanics
#20  April 13, 2014, 06:41:20 pm
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Should we have another option for super selection inspired from Ultra SF4's double? Where the character has access to all super arts with the cost of damage reduction? Super stock number and super bar length could still be different as well to help balance it out. Not like the option in SF3 to have all supers with 2 bars of the same length for all characters.
Re: Game mechanics
#21  April 13, 2014, 06:53:14 pm
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leaning towards no but thats matchup dependent
Re: Game mechanics
#22  April 13, 2014, 07:32:26 pm
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I'm leaning towards 'no' as well.
We can always save the idea and place it in a later iteration of the game in the form of DLC :P
Re: Game mechanics
#23  April 15, 2014, 02:00:09 am
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A couple of ideas:

- Taunts decreasing an opponent's power bar if completed, perhaps for an enhanced value if the tauntee is attacking while the taunter ending the taunt - like extra counter damage to the spirit.
Of course, as a full game feature this would be coded in the victim to detect an opponent's transition from the taunt state to something other than a get-hit state, assuming taunts can't be cancelled.
It would also encourage a character to stay on the offensive to maintain his bar, as turtling would compromise a shot at a level 3.

- A nod to Final Fight: if you don't have enough power bar for a super, pay for it with life, as with FF's specials, since that game had no power bars.
SFA3 let you start with a level of power bar to encourage offense early on, but getting the option at the cost of some life instead could also work, provided you'd lose less life than what the super inflicts if it lands.
Say a super on average does 300 damage (assuming standard life is 1000) - it could cost 200 life. If a super costs 1000 power, but a character has some but not enough, he can spend all his power and the proportional remaining equivalent in life rounded up to use a super.
Ex: 900 power -> do a super and lose all your power plus 20 life.
If this only applies to offensive techniques it's not a concern for potential defensive uses like Elena's Healing super.
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#24  April 18, 2014, 03:00:15 pm
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So chains were scrapped right?

Meter is usually easy to build so unless its FF character specific, I'm opposed.

2P throw input + ex moves is going to lead to messed up inputs on accident. I hate 2p and close f+p inputs since my crappy controller tends to mess up.

Are you adding kara throws?

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Re: Gameplay mechanics
#25  April 18, 2014, 03:08:59 pm
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 no chains

The 2P/2K and LP+LK throws will be able to be turned on and off in a config file. So if you do hate one you can remove it. I hate 2/3P/K being run/superjump in MVC games but it doesn't seem to mess up the inputs often.

Kara throws will more than likely be character specific

(On controllers if I play on a PS controller I prefer 2P/2K throws. Sega Saturn I prefer LP+LK. I'll probably use a Saturn on this game)
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#26  April 18, 2014, 05:56:17 pm
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It would be cool to see a pause screen, I already have a working code that could share if this Idea would be used, it comes with character portrait animation, small section for character info, extended section for hypers and special, it also displays commands that change regarding to character facing which indicates little character shilluette on the lower right part of the screen.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#27  April 18, 2014, 06:08:18 pm
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That would be really cool! I want it to look as similar to a commercial game pause screen/move list as we can get it.

I don't know about the changing directions depending on which side you're on. Does it put the command on the right side of the screen when facing left? Those kinds tend to confuse me more but if it switches sides too it might not be so bad.
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#28  April 18, 2014, 06:38:12 pm
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Hey guys, I got a question. While coding the basics I went to confirm if there were any sort of auto close range attacks. (not a V-ism player) As I suspected there is not. So this made me wonder how certain characters are dealt with. So I picked Charlie who typically has a B+SK, near SK, far SK, and F+SK

He doesn't have his far SK at all in this option. I'm kinda wanting to remove this feature. Game has quite a few SFA mechanics already anyway. Thoughts? Alternatives?
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#29  April 18, 2014, 07:36:43 pm
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Hey guys, I got a question. While coding the basics I went to confirm if there were any sort of auto close range attacks. (not a V-ism player) As I suspected there is not. So this made me wonder how certain characters are dealt with. So I picked Charlie who typically has a B+SK, near SK, far SK, and F+SK

He doesn't have his far SK at all in this option. I'm kinda wanting to remove this feature. Game has quite a few SFA mechanics already anyway. Thoughts? Alternatives?

As in dropping the "hold Back for close version of an attack". Fine with me, it's annoying for some combos.
As if Dhalsim makes it to the cast, I prefer when he auto-stretches based on the distance from the opponent anyway.
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#30  April 18, 2014, 07:42:06 pm
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For dhalsim I always wondered if he'd be better with F+ attack to stretch instead of back or near.

@Balthazar:
@Alex Sinigaglia:

You guys have strong feelings for this mechanic?
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#31  April 18, 2014, 08:41:54 pm
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That would be really cool! I want it to look as similar to a commercial game pause screen/move list as we can get it.

I don't know about the changing directions depending on which side you're on. Does it put the command on the right side of the screen when facing left? Those kinds tend to confuse me more but if it switches sides too it might not be so bad.

This is my pause menu in action, in gif it may look a bit choppy but i don't have a camtasia installed right now so it's the best I could get, it's more smooth and a bit faster on the actual game.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

As for the changing directions:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

You decide if this is helpful or confusing, either way it can be easily disabled.

Note that I found a small bug related to that kind of menu, I encountered a problem connected to custom states, I was playing against Virgil who put my character into custom state and then the problem occured, namely pause menu triggered on pressing left/right instead of start, in the begining it had set it to work in -2, the solution was to use -3 which excludes custom states but perhaps it was virgil's fault, maybe in full game that kind of problem will not occur.

I don't think pause related code was my problem, as you can see, there is nothing that should trigger it in a situation I described.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 10:01:32 pm by WooshaQ
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#32  April 18, 2014, 10:17:07 pm
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That's really cool. I think it'd work great for this project. I still personally prefer the note saying all motions presume the user is facing right. The little figure at the bottom turning is a nice touch. And if other users prefer it to display different motions depending on which side I'll easily concede.

In a full game there should be very little risk of it happening without the user's input at all.
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#33  April 18, 2014, 11:11:56 pm
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K, here's the file with all the resources and code, for the sake of my convinience I split shared gfx for fightfx and character dedicated that goes to character sff. I believe this is useful for size reduction, I use it myself to separate hitsparks and a lot of shared gfx on my character edits. I've noticed while pasting air that I used a blank gfx file placed at 9999,99 but this you can easily correct, I just pointed them out on fightfx air file. The main code, uses commands like forwards, back, x and menu, this will have to be chanded. The Info section of the menu I used for hardcoded credits but as I wrote it can be used for character bio or whatever. Well, you can do whatever you want with it :) If something appears to be missing in the archive below, just let me know.

https://www.mediafire.com/?1t8df74eznymvwd
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#34  April 19, 2014, 12:29:12 am
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Re: Gameplay mechanics
#35  April 19, 2014, 01:11:22 am
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That was a sub discussion! I wanted clarification on removing the back+attack for close range attacks and make them work automatically like normal! Anyway that's how they're coded now. I can change them later if I need
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#36  April 19, 2014, 07:48:44 am
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Id scrap the holdback input for cl normals. Maybe keep it for Dhalsim though. I prefer the stretches being auto

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Re: Game mechanics
#37  April 27, 2014, 04:04:52 am
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Should we have another option for super selection inspired from Ultra SF4's double? Where the character has access to all super arts with the cost of damage reduction? Super stock number and super bar length could still be different as well to help balance it out. Not like the option in SF3 to have all supers with 2 bars of the same length for all characters.
I don't like the idea of super selection period, so I'd support an all-supers option.  But to balance out the advantage of multiple supers I don't think a damage nerf is the way to go, that can get too fiddly to balance.  How about the all-supers option gives you only one stock of a long super bar?  That way having all your supers available gets balanced out by waiting longer to use them, having only the one stock, and limiting use of EX / Comebacks / Custom / Zero Counters?
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#38  April 27, 2014, 04:15:20 am
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Sounds like for now we won't worry about an all supers option in the game. Though you can also feel good keeping in mind that these mechanics are just for the "official" game. There will be an option to have them all on in the config file for fun factor. Not worrying about balance.
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#39  June 29, 2014, 12:19:07 am
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There will be four sizes for the Super Gauges depending on the super art. How much should the max power level be for each?



I'm thinking that smallest to greatest should be 1500 then 2000 then 2500 then 3000.

How much should an EX cost? 500? 750? I'm leaning toward 500
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#40  June 29, 2014, 12:47:12 am
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750 always feels like a weird amount, and on a bar, it's even less easily visible when you have enough and how much it's going to remove. It's just a matter of adjusting the advantage so that it's fair for half a super rather than 3/4th of a super.
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Re: Gameplay mechanics
#41  June 29, 2014, 01:02:25 am
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I just checked SF3 and the smallest super bar there can hold a little over 1 EX attack. 500 would put it at 3 here. Think I should increase it to an even 1000?

IE: You get a little over enough for 1 EX but not enough for a second EX.
Re: Gameplay mechanics
#42  August 28, 2014, 01:57:17 am
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