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Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character (Read 10822 times)

Started by Momotaro, June 20, 2020, 11:55:55 am
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Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#1  June 20, 2020, 11:55:55 am
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I saw many POTS characters.
Also some characters like Shotos or Kyo, Iori... seems to be very popular.
I would help the progress on perhaps making some more POTS styled characters.

The missing and obscure or unconverted characters are my main goal.

I need to know some stuffs. for all my questions I know IT DEPENDS on the creator itself.
But I would like to know USUALLY...

-You create a special move from a KOF character into POTS, is it better to take the existing Kof character code as a base, and edit it into pots?
or create from scratch?

-What specificity of coding is needed for special moves and super moves?

-Is Memo template still a good base for POTS styled characters?

-Any tips are welcome to make the process efficient.

I'm into Mugen from the early days... but I'm still learning from M1.0 and 1.1
Since I'm mainly into sprite editing/spriting.

Also, I'm very very slow into spriting, and even slower into coding... ^^;
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#2  June 20, 2020, 04:11:23 pm
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This will probably sound super cocky but I consider myself a mid to high tier when it comes to POTS characters, so I'll leave my two cents:

-You create a special move from a KOF character into POTS, is it better to take the existing Kof character code as a base, and edit it into pots?
or create from scratch?
Create them for scratch by comparing the data existing moves have in common. KoF and CvS2 play like what they are: two different games. You have to make the special move feels like it works as it would have worked if it was included in CvS. Let's say you're adapting a character with an generic uppercut: take a look at how does his uppercut works in source when compared to Kyo/Iori's Oniyaki or Ryo's dp. Let's say your character has a fireball: is it faster than Iori's fireball? Slower? After you figure that out, convert your reference's data (in this case Iori's fireball). You do the exact same thing with hitboxes.

That's the specifics, but most of the times you the only thing required is to have a sharp game sense, which you can accomplish by playing the character you want to convert in question. When including a special move absent from CvS2 you need to know what was the purpose of that move in KoF. Let's say you want to add Iori's dp kick from SvC to CvS2: of course the jump arc is going to be very important, but even if you get the veloticies down to how a programmer from CvS2 would have make them, if the move doesn't punish projectiles, then you're doing things wrong.

Your goal should never be making something "look" good, your goal should be making something function properly.

-What specificity of coding is needed for special moves and super moves?
It varies from move to move but I'm gonna be honest here: if you can handle custom states, hitdefs, helper projectiles and VelSets/VelAdds, you can handle about 99% of the things you want to convert.

-Is Memo template still a good base for POTS styled characters?
Not at all, use Jmorphman's Benimaru or Ken when he's released.

-Any tips are welcome to make the process efficient.
1) Get comfortable with cns by editing stuff that you know that's wrong from existing characters.
2) Play CvS2 to understand how characters feel. Play other fightning games to understand fightning games. Play the character you want to convert to understand how he plays.

He can correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think DivineWolf rip every single velocity from the characters he converted. Do you know why his characters feel as good they feel? Because he clearly played both CvS2 and the characters he converted enough.
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#3  June 20, 2020, 04:53:33 pm
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  • I swear I've been working on Geese all this time.
  • Kind of POTS style editor, except not really.
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#4  June 20, 2020, 04:58:34 pm
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Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#5  June 20, 2020, 05:28:21 pm
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Just, don't fall into the same trappings as I did

I tried to make my own POTS/Infinite character and cancelled it because I made the mistake of not knowing what I was doing.

DW

Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#6  June 20, 2020, 06:15:55 pm
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Everything comes together from knowing basics of coding and having knowledge/experience with how fighting games actually work. Even after all these years, I'm not any type of "master" or expert when it comes to coding. Although, I've been a huge fan/practitioner of fighting games since I was old enough to play them, back in the SF2 arcade days. Understanding is what will make or break what you do. A lot of people who attempt to make chars in general suffer from a lack of understanding how FG tropes work.

Though honestly, my recommendation to you Ned, is to put your full focus on spriting. You are very talented with your ability to sprite. Though as you yourself have mentioned, the process is slow for you. This will come to pretty much a stand still if you try to add learning code and researching FGs to the mix. It may just be me, but I feel like there is a severe lack of spriters nowadays. Especially with your skill level. You don't have to code to bring new things to the table. If you sprite good and new things, like I know you are capable of, coders will collaborate with you.

I myself would be more than happy to code a char that you sprite and we can discuss what's what. Even if it's a char I may personally not be interested in, there are several others who will most likely be willing to. Taking a more focused approach yields faster and more productive results. All and all though, as far as coding goes, Karma pretty much explained it well enough. Knowing the basics of coding will be key, along with understanding of techniques and systems of play.

He can correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think DivineWolf rip every single velocity from the characters he converted. Do you know why his characters feel as good they feel? Because he clearly played both CvS2 and the characters he converted enough.

That's correct sir. Most of the chars I made I'm very familiar with in general and are mains for me in CvS2. Like Akuma, Rock, and Sagat. Others that I may not be as familiar with, I'll play games with them in it and do various amounts of researching on the interwebz. Watching showcase vids, etc. Months of research most times. Along with help from many that I trust and know that they know their stuff. Not just coding, but FG understanding. TBH, having that understanding has always been key for me. I feel it's something that any creator/coder needs. It's where it all stems from.
Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 04:00:43 pm by DW
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#7  June 20, 2020, 07:23:21 pm
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I totally support you, Ned. You're a respected spriter around here and knowing you want to learn to code is even more exciting! I've been reading about coding because, honestly, we spriters want something to be done and while working on the sprites, not always them are used(just remember Viofitz's Mina, whose REAL sheet is still unused, except for that bikini version, given he put A LOT of effort at it, or some of Dampir's stuff too). Or converting to CvS missing characters from SvC(Shiki, Earthquake, Mars People, etc)...who can guarantee this to be coded? no one but you. As I lost some of my vibe with spriting(and that's for real because of RL stuff which affected me), I re-started with spriting, mostly reshading Mars People because I can not concentrate in something pixel based(or drawing in paper) for longer of 15 minutes. MP is easy and will help to recover my muscle memory

I for example, want to do something SF related, with some traits of tekken(combinations, finishers, reversals and not sooo long juggles), but making a team with someone AND being totally understood, it's sometimes impossible. If around here is someone who wants to make a small team, I'm open to it.


Also, Ned, we can excange spriting tips if you feel to. I'm open to change impressions with other spriters. I'm a bit stupid sometimes, tho :P
I swear there was something cool here!!
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#8  June 20, 2020, 08:45:02 pm
  • ***
  • I swear I've been working on Geese all this time.
  • Kind of POTS style editor, except not really.
Kung Fu Man.

Ah, ok. I thought it was a good base, but i wasn't quite sure.

Alright, let's see if i got the process right: so you have DivineKFM, Jmorph's Ken, etc as the base, but then you copy & paste sprites, sounds, & code from the character you want to turn the base into, & then replace/nullify the base sprites/sounds in favor of the new character, & then adjust the code accordingly?
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#9  June 20, 2020, 10:23:33 pm
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Kung Fu Man.

Ah, ok. I thought it was a good base, but i wasn't quite sure.

Alright, let's see if i got the process right: so you have DivineKFM, Jmorph's Ken, etc as the base, but then you copy & paste sprites, sounds, & code from the character you want to turn the base into, & then replace/nullify the base sprites/sounds in favor of the new character, & then adjust the code accordingly?

You mean like, from other MUGEN characters? If that's the case, the answer is no. That's not the process, that's a recipe for disaster. You can see at other people's code for referencing a move hard to recreate, but don't "copy & paste" because there's gonna be a lot of problems. CvS2 movement is incredibly easy to recreate, it's just VelSets and VelAdds as acceleration. For grapples or moves with custom states, there's +25 characters from DivineWolf and Jmorphman to learn from. There's honestly little to no reason reason to "copy & paste" from other characters unless you really don't know what you're doing, or it's something super specific that you don't feel like recoding. Getting accurate data is easier than ever with wonderful tools like Jesuszilla's data tool. And you may be thinking: dude, someone else ripped the data already, why should I make the work again whe someone elses just did it? Welp, how do you know that data is correct?

Pasting someone else code on a template leads to two results:

1) The character is functional because the code you were pasting was good enough because it was coded by a solid author like Kamekaze.
2) The character is not functional because the code you were pasting was bad to begin with, and you carried over no only the author's misakes, but also added a layer of incompatibility.

The first result happens and leads to something "functional" but not good. A good example of this is Knuckles8864. He's a beloved author in here and I hope he doesn't take this as a personal attack, but his Iori is Hero's Iori slapped into a template (Kyo?). Either that or him, Hero, and Quickfist, had very similar thought processes while coding the rekkas...

Code:
(5.53125*exp((-0.0814)*(time-1)))

His characters were functional because the codes were taken from solid but outdated characters. Mind you he seems to be improving lately, but I recall some of the early Yamazaki's betas having way too much from Waru's, another author incredible for his time but fairly outdated for modern standards.

And again, you'll be like: they're solid authors! Whats the point of ripping everything by myself again if someone solid already did it? Well, at that point a) you're making reskin b) no author is 100% perfect c) even if the author coded everything for a system that seems to be similar to yours (CvS2 to POTS), there's fundamental things that you need to do yourself if you want to make things properly (ex: adapt the goddamn timmings).

The second result is total disaster and leads to varo_hades. Play these characters by yourself if you want to experience what's wrong.

Templates are for you not to rewrite absolutely every single line of code of the system, not to "copy & paste sprites, sounds, & code from the character you want to turn the base into".
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#10  June 20, 2020, 11:22:37 pm
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  • I swear I've been working on Geese all this time.
  • Kind of POTS style editor, except not really.
Oh, so instead of just copying the code outright to have it work, you have to make the code from scratch only using the code from the other character & the source games as a reference?
Otherwise, it won't work very well, or even not at all?
Do i have that right?

Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#11  June 20, 2020, 11:56:51 pm
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 It's really a matter of understanding all the ins-and-outs of the character you're working on. The biggest issue with relying on templates and blind copypasting is that you don't actually understand what you're working with, you are instead merely hoping it just works. This is especially more true when you're working with conversions (for the purpose of this thread, PotS will be considered a "conversion" category in spite of being custom simply because PotS himself polished his style towards that direction).

 Even if you were to go 100% custom, having an idea of sensible data helps make a product feel more genuine and refined.

 In the end, you will have to work hard if you want to release a product with good presentation and long-lasting respectability.
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#12  June 21, 2020, 10:22:29 am
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First, thanks to all of you for pointing out some stuff and giving advice.

@KarmaCharmeleon
Your feedback and informations are really nice!

@RPGamerWriter
Actually, I can code, I know how most pre-1.0 works.
But yes, POTS system can be a bit hard to understand in some points

I myself would be more than happy to code a char that you sprite and we can discuss what's what. Even if it's a char I may personally not be interested in, there a several others who will most likely be willing to.
@DW
Yes, it would be a pleasure to me as well.
I just feel sometimes creators like you can be very busy. And I sometime focus on obscure characters. or not popular ones.
I'll think about it and try to focus on one project. I would definitly like to work with you one more time.

I've been reading about coding because, honestly, we spriters want something to be done and while working on the sprites, not always them are used(just remember Viofitz's Mina, whose REAL sheet is still unused, except for that bikini version, given he put A LOT of effort at it, or some of Dampir's stuff too). Or converting to CvS missing characters from SvC(Shiki, Earthquake, Mars People, etc)...who can guarantee this to be coded? no one but you. As I lost some of my vibe with spriting(and that's for real because of RL stuff which affected me), I re-started with spriting, mostly reshading Mars People because I can not concentrate in something pixel based(or drawing in paper) for longer of 15 minutes. MP is easy and will help to recover my muscle memory
Thanks again for your words!
Also, you pointed out my main problem :
Since spriting (even sprite editing) is VERY long for me, I cannot start a project if I'm not sure It can be converted into a character.
And I don't want to sound like : "please, please, can you you make this character for me" ^^;

When I see that characters converted into CVS graphics by Dampir, like Angel cannot get enough interest to be taken into POTS style, I feel like :
Why anyone would want to convert mine (considering I would work on even less popular characters)
Also, I tend to think about "not acurate to source new moves" Just like CVS Kim is not "accurate" to KOF (have right leg stance change etc.)
Many other exemples.

I really like the combination of R@CE Akira and Dampir, because they can make some more obscure characters join the fight! ^^

Again, thanks to all of you.
Knowing things and collaborations can be possible, I'll see what I can do now.
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#13  June 21, 2020, 10:51:22 am
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Can one of you guys help me go thru the basics like editing sprites, animations, hitboxs, sounds are prolly more? If ya'll can, it will be extremely helpful. This will be my second favorite thread.
Emerie's MUGEN Content

Everyone have Greatness :)

Don't give up... just... take a break :(
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#14  June 21, 2020, 10:57:29 am
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  • A.K.A. NED
  • I like to draw fighting game characters...
Can one of you guys help me go thru the basics like editing sprites, animations, hitboxs, sounds are prolly more? If ya'll can, it will be extremely helpful. This will be my second favorite thread.

I think this is not the right thread.
This one is specifically about how to make POTS character based on / or not based on KOF character.
And particularly convert special moves into POTS characters.

I think, That the offical manual of Mugen would help you much more. Good luck !
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#15  June 21, 2020, 11:09:53 am
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Alright. So where is the manual?
Emerie's MUGEN Content

Everyone have Greatness :)

Don't give up... just... take a break :(
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#16  June 21, 2020, 11:19:03 am
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Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#17  June 21, 2020, 11:22:43 am
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C:\mugen\docs

Read everything. Or not and just jump in and play round with characters you have. Break them fix them give them new moves and palettes. Find out whats fun. You might find although you enjoy playing with something creating that style is boring. I love kof stuff but its some of the most bored I've been while creating.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#18  July 13, 2020, 09:46:17 am
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This will probably sound super cocky but I consider myself a mid to high tier when it comes to POTS characters, so I'll leave my two cents:

-You create a special move from a KOF character into POTS, is it better to take the existing Kof character code as a base, and edit it into pots?
or create from scratch?
Create them for scratch by comparing the data existing moves have in common. KoF and CvS2 play like what they are: two different games. You have to make the special move feels like it works as it would have worked if it was included in CvS. Let's say you're adapting a character with an generic uppercut: take a look at how does his uppercut works in source when compared to Kyo/Iori's Oniyaki or Ryo's dp. Let's say your character has a fireball: is it faster than Iori's fireball? Slower? After you figure that out, convert your reference's data (in this case Iori's fireball). You do the exact same thing with hitboxes.

That's the specifics, but most of the times you the only thing required is to have a sharp game sense, which you can accomplish by playing the character you want to convert in question. When including a special move absent from CvS2 you need to know what was the purpose of that move in KoF. Let's say you want to add Iori's dp kick from SvC to CvS2: of course the jump arc is going to be very important, but even if you get the veloticies down to how a programmer from CvS2 would have make them, if the move doesn't punish projectiles, then you're doing things wrong.

Your goal should never be making something "look" good, your goal should be making something function properly.

-What specificity of coding is needed for special moves and super moves?
It varies from move to move but I'm gonna be honest here: if you can handle custom states, hitdefs, helper projectiles and VelSets/VelAdds, you can handle about 99% of the things you want to convert.

-Is Memo template still a good base for POTS styled characters?
Not at all, use Jmorphman's Benimaru or Ken when he's released.

-Any tips are welcome to make the process efficient.
1) Get comfortable with cns by editing stuff that you know that's wrong from existing characters.
2) Play CvS2 to understand how characters feel. Play other fightning games to understand fightning games. Play the character you want to convert to understand how he plays.

He can correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think DivineWolf rip every single velocity from the characters he converted. Do you know why his characters feel as good they feel? Because he clearly played both CvS2 and the characters he converted enough.

So, I will try using Jmorphman's Benimaru as a base.
I will do what I can and try converting other unconverted character, but I already can see my limitations.

If my work is not good, I will not bother you with it and keep it private ^^;

I just have to try.
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#19  July 13, 2020, 12:54:47 pm
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If my work is not good, I will not bother you with it and keep it private ^^;

I just have to try.

Keeping it private is kind of a waste. Releasing an unfinished beta could open the gates to a better version, depending on who would be interested.
WIP Schedule:
The next Street Fighter All-Stars update
Re: Making a POTS/DW/Infinite... type character
#20  August 18, 2020, 03:03:22 pm
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Forgive me  for bringing back an old thread guys, but I found myself in the same boat as Nedflandeurse. I want to venture myself into re-coding some pots styled characters, mostly to make them more “coherent” with the characters of the most renowned authors. I was browsing the forum in search for a template to study, and I bumped into this thread.

What I want to ask you is: what’s different between the “regular” pots style, Infinite’s, and Divinewolf’s? If I use one of Jmorph’s characters as a template (as you suggested to Nedflandeurse), will I find something in the codes that isn’t found in Infinite’s characters, and viceversa?