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Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020) (Read 10620 times)

Started by KarmaCharmeleon, November 27, 2020, 03:44:46 PM
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Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#21  January 02, 2021, 12:13:53 AM
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-Your EX projectiles are restricted wrong.
-Power particles are misaligned for power charging.
-Can't roll forward while running.
-Rasetsumaru's laughing winpose sometimes plays the wrong voice clip for it.

I'm gonna level with you here, because I like you a lot; But don't take that too serious!(gold star if you get the reference)

This char feels...indecisive and excessive. Like, you couldn't decide on one final product, and the result is a mashing up of core mechanics. Which in turn, makes him overpowered honestly. He can do a Rage Burst, on top of CC, and power charging... While I'm not the most familiar with SS games, doesn't the way you have it here in the SS games disables the meter after it runs out/if you miss Issen for the rest of the match? You have a core mechanic from K-Groove here, that's honestly more buffed in this regard, because you can activate it whenever you so choose. While retaining the core CC from A-Groove.

You can't use them both at the same time, sure. However, does that matter? He still has TWO core groove mechanics at his disposal. And the Rage Burst isn't even limited like in the SS games! If it misses, I can just do it again! I retain my power gauge. Along with having access to power charging. Also, why does Rasetsumaru have EX moves? If PotS' style is what you're aiming for, neither he or JMM would have given Rasetsumaru EX moves. This only adds to his OP tool set.

This has actually started to pool over in your more recent chars. You gave Yun his buff Genei Jin, while keeping CC. Isn't that a bit excessive? Why didn't you just do what you did with Rose? Instead of giving her Soul illusion, you made CC able to cancel into like a super move. Effective and efficient, and not redundant. Yes, the version of Genei Jin you gave is better than the nerfed CC; Though if that be the case, why even have that CC there? Yang gets a pass, as his move isn't actually like CC. It's more of a double/shadow attack thing going on.

If your plan is to update Genjuro like this... I recommend against it. You need to decide on mechanics(especially core ones) and stick with it. Because this feels off honestly. Overall, he's solid. However I can't ignore the fact that he has far too much at his disposal. Throwing him off balance.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#22  January 02, 2021, 03:44:22 AM
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I agree with a lot of what you said for the most part especially the Rage Burst mechanic, but I kinda wanna respond to this directly lol:

...Why does Rasetsumaru have EX moves? If PotS' style is what you're aiming for, neither he or JMM would have given Rasetsumaru EX moves. This only adds to his OP tool set.

Rasetsumaru is just a demon who looks very similar to Haohmaru, rather than being a proper Evil Haohmaru. He's his own character, the Turles to Haohmaru's Goku, or more fittingly as you mentioned JMM, he's what Kusanagi is to Kyo: An completely different character in terms of the story, even if less so in gameplay. He's not a 1:1 Evil Ryu/Violent Ken/Shin Akuma equivalent.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#23  January 02, 2021, 04:08:29 AM
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...Why does Rasetsumaru have EX moves? If PotS' style is what you're aiming for, neither he or JMM would have given Rasetsumaru EX moves. This only adds to his OP tool set.
Rasetsumaru is just a demon who looks very similar to Haohmaru, rather than being a proper Evil Haohmaru. He's his own character, the Turles to Haohmaru's Goku, or more fittingly as you mentioned JMM, he's what Kusanagi is to Kyo: An completely different character in terms of the story, even if less so in gameplay. He's not a 1:1 Evil Ryu/Violent Ken/Shin Akuma equivalent.

Yeah, Rasetsumaru is more of an EX from, rather than a boss character.
Not to mention Evil Ryu & Kage have EX moves in SF4 & SF5.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#24  January 02, 2021, 10:15:23 AM
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I feel that Shitatari is kind of in the redundant category.  He loses 20% life to gain 1 bar of super, when he already has power charge.  Shitatari was kind of a Samurai Showdown specific move because of the game mechanics.  When Chazzanova did his version, he made the move be a time-limit power boost, which was a better alternative.


I know I sent a note partially about this, but I'll still address it
You gave Yun his buff Genei Jin, while keeping CC. Isn't that a bit excessive?  Why didn't you just do what you did with Rose? Instead of giving her Soul illusion, you made CC able to cancel into like a super move. Effective and efficient,
While I agree with the Yun statement, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the Rose one.  It's not so much efficient as it is over-powered.  There's a reason why no other character with CC has a super-cancel option for it.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#25  January 02, 2021, 02:56:55 PM
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-Your EX projectiles are restricted wrong.
-Power particles are misaligned for power charging.
-Can't roll forward while running.
-Rasetsumaru's laughing winpose sometimes plays the wrong voice clip for it.
Fixed everything but the laugh, I'm still on the fence about it. This is where it comes from (watch until the end):
https://streamable.com/bbbzsj
I agree it doesn't really fit the animation on source, I want to see if I can come up with a new animation that fits the voice sample.
Thanks for the reports :)

This char feels...indecisive and excessive. Like, you couldn't decide on one final product, and the result is a mashing up of core mechanics. Which in turn, makes him overpowered honestly.
Hard disagree with everything in here. Especially with the overpowered part, but I'm also very decided on what I want these two characters to be.

He can do a Rage Burst, on top of CC, and power charging... While I'm not the most familiar with SS games, doesn't the way you have it here in the SS games disables the meter after it runs out/if you miss Issen for the rest of the match?
It does. In fact, one of the first versions of this install super made you unable to charge meter after you rage exploded (it should be around MFG discord server). It also was like in source: a combo breaker that you could use while being hit on the ground. I think that was way too intricate and decided to make simpler. It isn't a combo breaker, and it doesn't break your power gauge. It's just an install with a little burst that sets you on neutral.

You have a core mechanic from K-Groove here, that's honestly more buffed in this regard, because you can activate it whenever you so choose. While retaining the core CC from A-Groove. You can't use them both at the same time, sure. However, does that matter? He still has TWO core groove mechanics at his disposal. And the Rage Burst isn't even limited like in the SS games! If it misses, I can just do it again! I retain my power gauge. Along with having access to power charging.
You can make a case for being excessive, but that's subjective. There are a lot of precedents of characters breaking the rules in fgs. In anime games you have all sort of characters with extra special gauges. In Marvel you have characters like Phoenix who reaches special powers up with enough meter. In Tekken 7 Akuma has his own combo gauge. There's also this character in Soul Calibur VI that gets raged: Haohmaru ;D

Also, why does Rasetsumaru have EX moves? If PotS' style is what you're aiming for, neither he or JMM would have given Rasetsumaru EX moves. This only adds to his OP tool set.
Rasetsumaru is not a boss, but, more importantly: what OP tool set? The only thing Rasetsumaru has going for it is damage. He does insane damage, and that's intended. The problem is him not being able to open up any decent player by any means. He can't mixup for shit. He doesn't have any overheads or lows outside of his normals (his good jumping attacks have long startup also), and his buttons are not suited for comboing, as they belong to a character that mainly pokes. He also has a lot of problems anti-airing, Nagi Yaiba should require a lot of prediction and unlike Haohmaru's, hi cr.HP sucks. A lot of characters are capable of punishing you on hit if you antiair with cr.HP. His CC strings are also garbage compared to Haohmaru's. Rasetsumaru relies on spacing properly with shoulder. He lives and dies by meter because not only he does way more damage with meter, but it also improves significantly his neutral. If you're against him, just turtle and punish on block his unsafe moves, or whiff punish like against any other character.

I'm sorry but I see that you are making a correlation between having more options ("being excessive") and being OP, and that's just not how balance works, not at all. Who the fuck cares if he can Rage at will if he has these many glaring weaknesses? I put a lot of thought on how his moveset is and interacts. He is not OP by any means, if anything he is supposed to be underpowered, and if there's anything that is breaking some of the weaknesses that I intend Rasetsumaru to have, lemme know (you or anyone) and I'll fix them. Rage is not one of them, tho. Rage you leaves you a -1 (essentially neutral) and gives you a attack and defense buff (and access to Issen). The counterplay is just... Blocking. There's not 50/50s to worry about. One of the big differences between my Rage Explosion and K-Groove (even bigger than being able to use it whenever you have meter instead of filling the gauge with JD and being hit) is that there's no Guard Crush like in CvS2. Characters like Geese thrive on K-Groove because when raged he eats the guard meter like cookies. This is absent on PotS system.

This has actually started to pool over in your more recent chars. You gave Yun his buff Genei Jin, while keeping CC. Isn't that a bit excessive?
If you cut Genei Jin out of Yun, he becomes CvS2 Yun + EX Moves, which is heavily underpowered unless I break his EX moves. The idea of designing install type of supers into POTS is so characters that rely on them on source don't feel underpowered when you cut them out. Yun experienced pain when CvS2 and CFJ removed Genei Jin.

Why didn't you just do what you did with Rose? Instead of giving her Soul illusion, you made CC able to cancel into like a super move. Effective and efficient, and not redundant.

This comes back to the non-existent correlation between being excessive and being OP. Being able to cancel into CC might not be excessive, but it's very broken, more than I expected it to be at the time. As a result Rose is one of my more broken creations out there, sadly. She will experience updates in the future that integrate Soul Illusion to his arsenal and balance around that.

Yes, the version of Genei Jin you gave is better than the nerfed CC; Though if that be the case, why even have that CC there? Yang gets a pass, as his move isn't actually like CC. It's more of a double/shadow attack thing going on.

Don't worry, I put a lot of thought on having both CC and Genei Jin on the same character. You don't mind having a Super Move with two levels of strength, right? Welp, think about Genei Jin like it was a lvl 2 version of Custom Combo. 1 bar of install should never outclass Custom Combo. Seiei Enbu/Genei Jin starts outclassing Custom Combo once you have 2 bars, which fits my vision of a lvl 2 version of CC. Once again, I'll share my notes while redesigning Genei Jin:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

If you find a string of lvl 1 Genei Jin that makes more damage than Custom Combo (virtually outclassing CC), lemme know and I'll fix it.

If your plan is to update Genjuro like this... I recommend against it.
I think I said it before, but the changes on Genjuro will be so significant that I intend to preserve the current version updated too.

You need to decide on mechanics(especially core ones) and stick with it..
I already decided.

Because this feels off honestly. Overall, he's solid. However I can't ignore the fact that he has far too much at his disposal. Throwing him off balance.
We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes down to what we think its "too much at his disposal". For me, adding a command grab to Terry was too much, for you it wasn't. Now, does adding a command grab to Terry throws him off balance? Not necessary, just like having Rage doesn't necessarily throws Haohmaru/Rasetsumaru off balance.

I feel that Shitatari is kind of in the redundant category.  He loses 20% life to gain 1 bar of super, when he already has power charge.  Shitatari was kind of a Samurai Showdown specific move because of the game mechanics.  When Chazzanova did his version, he made the move be a time-limit power boost, which was a better alternative.
Welp, Shitatari is part of a dynamic related to Rasetsumaru's different knockdown times.

When you hit cr.MK or cl.MK you have four options:

When you don't have meter:
* Special cancel into light shoulder and link cl.HP for the most damaging non-meter option but really short knockdown time (no oki, no repositioning).
* Special cancel into proximity anti-air for medium damage and medium knockdown time (the best option for okizeme).
* Special cancel into light pocket sands for the lowest damage but the highest knockdown time.

When you have meter.
* Special cancel into proximity anti-air and super cancel into Tenha Dankuu Retsu Zan for the most damaging meter option.

Why does this matter for Shitatari? Because of the high knock down time, when you special cancel into pockets sands you to get to use Shitatari without being punished, gaining a lot of meter. If you try to Power Charge after the knock down you won't even get one bar. If you Shitatari, you get about one bar and a third. Meter matters a lot on Rasetsumaru because of how much his damages spikes with it.

Now, is it worth? Welp, it heavily depends of the state of the game. POTS System has huge power gains all over the place so its not like you desperately need to use Shitatari to gain some meter, but the option is still there if you want to pressure early on the game. I really don't have that much of an issue with a move not being optimal, tho.

DW

Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#26  January 02, 2021, 04:53:19 PM
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Fixed everything but the laugh, I'm still on the fence about it. This is where it comes from (watch until the end):
https://streamable.com/bbbzsj
I agree it doesn't really fit the animation on source, I want to see if I can come up with a new animation that fits the voice sample.

That doesn't look like a winpose. More like they just chose that pose for his char intro, while having him say something corresponding to a fight or w/e. Does he actually do that for a winpose? Or does that only happen between matches in that format?


We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes down to what we think its "too much at his disposal". For me, adding a command grab to Terry was too much, for you it wasn't. Now, does adding a command grab to Terry throws him off balance? Not necessary, just like having Rage doesn't necessarily throws Haohmaru/Rasetsumaru off balance.

Adding a alternate special doesn't equal giving someone an additional core mechanic. Especially since Terry having that is official. SNK gave him that in FEXL. There's nothing that sets him off balance in that game, and it's a nice option to have.



There's a reason in CVS2 that those mechanics are locked into the specific groove. Even if you have unlimited points unlocked for making your own EX Groove. You can NEVER combine core mechanics. A char like Haohmaru will thrive off a Rage Burst. His entire game plan is pokes and heavy hits. With this, he can augment his strength output even further whenever he wants, and has an addition super at his disposal. And if you want to, now you can even forego that with the addition of CC. I never said more options makes a char OP, but in this case, it does tip the scales in his favor. Regardless if you nerfed it somewhat in terms of it not being able to combo break and leaving him neutral. He still gets all the benefits that matter.

And it's always an option no matter what for him. Once again, this comes back to why you can't combine core mechanics. That's my bad with the Haoh/Rasetsu thing. Though while I could make a case with that as well, I'll leave it be.  As for Yun, I don't object to what you've done; Though no matter what, giving him Genei Jin makes CC worthless, or at the very least redundant. Slight time augments really hold no weight. One should never use it over the better option. At the end of the day, we will have to agree to disagree. Though you should keep in mind core mechanics.

Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 04:56:22 PM by DW
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#27  January 03, 2021, 12:32:27 AM
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That doesn't look like a winpose. More like they just chose that pose for his char intro, while having him say something corresponding to a fight or w/e. Does he actually do that for a winpose? Or does that only happen between matches in that format?
Only between matches.

Adding a alternate special doesn't equal giving someone an additional core mechanic. Especially since Terry having that is official. SNK gave him that in FEXL. There's nothing that sets him off balance in that game, and it's a nice option to have.
It's not an additional core mechanic, it's a super. Just like Makoto's Tanden Renki or Ash's Sans Culotte. Its even a Super on NGBC.

Are you implying that I said that the command grab would throw Terry off balance? Because:

Quote
We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes down to what we think its "too much at his disposal". For me, adding a command grab to Terry was too much, for you it wasn't. Now, does adding a command grab to Terry throws him off balance? Not necessary, just like having Rage doesn't necessarily throws Haohmaru/Rasetsumaru off balance.

I'm not sure it was SNK who gave Terry the command grab, as FEXL is an Arika game. Not that it really matter, I still think it would be giving too much at his disposal, you will still think it isn't.

There's a reason in CVS2 that those mechanics are locked into the specific groove. Even if you have unlimited points unlocked for making your own EX Groove. You can NEVER combine core mechanics. A char like Haohmaru will thrive off a Rage Burst. His entire game plan is pokes and heavy hits. With this, he can augment his strength output even further whenever he wants, and has an addition super at his disposal. And if you want to, now you can even forego that with the addition of CC. I never said more options makes a char OP, but in this case, it does tip the scales in his favor. Regardless if you nerfed it somewhat in terms of it not being able to combo break and leaving him neutral. He still gets all the benefits that matter.
You did say that "mashing up mechanics" (giving Haohmaru and Rasetsumaru the option to use both CC and Rage separately) makes them OP, which is still untrue. Having stronger pokes doesn't make Haohmaru OP at all. Of course it benefits from it, of course "tip the scales in his favor", but its still not OP.


And it's always an option no matter what for him. Once again, this comes back to why you can't combine core mechanics.
I can, I did by making one of them a Super.

That's my bad with the Haoh/Rasetsu thing. Though while I could make a case with that as well, I'll leave it be.
Ugh, you know that its okay to be wrong, right?

As for Yun, I don't object to what you've done; Though no matter what, giving him Genei Jin makes CC worthless, or at the very least redundant. Slight time augments really hold no weight. One should never use it over the better option.
Its literally the same dynamic between level 1 and level 2 supers... Are you serious?

At the end of the day, we will have to agree to disagree. Though you should keep in mind core mechanics.
I was okay with last post because I naturally have more insight with the characters as I designed them with a lot of time and care. I didn't appreciate you calling them OP with flawed arguments but people can be wrong. This last post was you doubling down on those poorly made arguments, and I don't appreciate that at all.

It's okay for you to not share my design choices or my design philosophy, but trying to make it seem like they're overpowered when they clearly not is not something that I tolerate. Please abstain from posting in this thread anymore unless you have a solid argument on why Rage Explosion should not be part of Haohmaru's/Rasetsumaru's arsenal. Clue: if you are mentioning CC, you doing it wrong.

DW

Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#28  January 03, 2021, 01:02:09 AM
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You like to get overly defensive about things, when I'm just giving my feedback. None of this is an attack. Though whether you "appreciate" something or not is your own prerogative. While I never said the char was straight up OP, this additions, to me, do feel excessive and leaning more towards heavy buffs. Whether you want to keep something or not, is entirely up to you. I'm not doubling down on anything, and I really don't feel like going tit for tat. At the end of the day, it's your char, do what you want. Like you said; agree to disagree. It was never anything more than that, but it appears you want to take it there. At any rate: I'll address this elsewhere. Do what you feel.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#29  January 03, 2021, 07:56:50 PM
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...Ok, ignoring the argument going on here for a second, I noticed that palette 6 on the default DEF file activates Rasetsumaru mode, even though the readme states that colors 1-6 is Normal mode.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#30  January 03, 2021, 11:18:05 PM
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...Ok, ignoring the argument going on here for a second, I noticed that palette 6 on the default DEF file activates Rasetsumaru mode, even though the readme states that colors 1-6 is Normal mode.

Just tested, this happens on my end, too.
Re: Haohmaru updated (28/11/2020)
#31  February 24, 2021, 10:01:26 PM
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Sorry for bumping. I dont know much about the system stuff going on since I'm not a POTS creator nor fighter, but I will say that Karma C has the best POTS Haohmaru around. In my opinion, way better than "the others." Why? Because KC actually datamines the shit out of the source game and so we dont have shit like normals --> chain combo --> specials --> super combo cancel. Overall, Jmorphman and KC have some of the best stuff out there. My personal favorites are OG POTS, Jman, KC, and DW.

The good thing about this Haohmaru is the fact that he is not a spaghetti GGXX knockoff like the other ones I have seen. Like seriously, Haohmaru is supposed to be a zoner, somewhat a turtle character, he aint supposed to be doing chain combos into specials and then super combo cancel altogether. This is why I like KC's because he knows that basic fighting game fundamental is that if you commit to a chain combo it doesnt EVER link into specials. (Hell even Morrigan from CvS2 doesn't even chain combo into specials)