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Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated) (Read 40984 times)

Started by Trololo, February 25, 2020, 03:39:54 pm
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Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#21  February 27, 2020, 08:38:20 pm
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Does he not have any Super-Cancels?
No, he doesn't. He didn't have those in SFA3, and I tell you what: even if he had them they'd be useless: 3 out of 4 of his Specials knock the enemy down. Considering that one super doesn't go further than initial hit on the falling enemy and the other one can juggle only in the corner, I'd say it's going to be a waste to implement. And the 4th one is Bad Stone, which is too slow to even try to execute on enemy close enough for supers to contact.
I assume he didn't have Super Cancels in USF4 (or whatever version of that game you're referencing) either, maybe SF5?

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Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#22  February 27, 2020, 11:38:50 pm
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Final fight outfit?
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#23  February 27, 2020, 11:40:24 pm
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Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#24  February 28, 2020, 12:17:01 am
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Nice! Thank tou! I'll dl later!

DW

Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#25  February 28, 2020, 02:37:11 am
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Color me impressed! You have come a long way, Trololo. Cody is without a doubt, your "magnum opus" so to speak. I hope you go back and give the same care and dedication to your Adon and Nash. I'll get into Balrog later, but it is a definite improvement for him as well. You got various debug flood going on with him though(Balrog). Along with you need to adjust the hitpauses for his B/F + Punch super. If you're gonna use JZ's Balrog, which is a very good foundation, go all the way. Pexxer mentioned a lot of stuff you got going on as well.

A few things of note with Cody though:

-Why does MP(stand or crouch) have so much hitvel for p2? I haven't checked the values, but it feels like it's just as much as his HPs.

-Your QCF kick specials feels stiff compared to SFA3 and other versions I've played. Like, it drags too long after the initial kick.

-His Criminal Upper special causes too much chip damage imo. Shouldn't be 7 chip per hit on multi hitting moves like this.

-Someone already mention the Bad Stone hit the ground thing. You're also using the wrong SFX for when it hits the ground though. You can get the correct SFX from my Akuma or Psylocke, or whoever got a ground hitting projectile.

-Even though you explained how picking up the knife works, it actually doesn't work like that in SFA3. It works how people intend it to work. Pressing the punches slightly after pressing down is odd and a nuance it shouldn't have.

-Shouldn't the knife projectile cause more damage than the stone?

-Not gonna lie, EX QCF Kick special is pretty worthless. Why would I spend meter for just kinda upper body invulnerability? It causes the same damage(as LK ver.) and I suppose has slightly better startup? It's also weird that p2 get's no X vel on hit. Depending on the distance, he can do silly things like put himself in the corner on hit... Think of something better/worth spending meter for.

I'm using the casual SFF. That run anim...is pretty bad, not gonna lie. It works for what it is though I suppose. I haven't tried every little thing, and haven't played any arcade runs yet. Though from what I quick tested, he's very well done. Good job, I'll get back with you after some more extensive/real time fights.
Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 02:42:45 am by DW
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#26  February 28, 2020, 08:42:47 am
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Damn, thanks a lot, DW.
While I would like somehow make my chars better, I have to say, though, that this, most likely, won't happen any time soon. And I mean not that I'm a lazy sack of shite or something like that this time, no. Let's just say, I had a real motivation to make this Cody as good as possible, and I don't want that motivation to happen again.
At any rate, here is my reply to your feedback:
-Well, in SFA3 HitVels are huge. I maybe visually, but tried to recreate those HitVels he has there. But yeah, those are really actual with his xscale = 1. Maybe I'm better tone them down later since I use xscale = 0.8333...
-I dunno, I tried to view frame-per-frame when he starts and when he stops. I don't think it drags either...
-Now with this, I agree. I've looked up SFA3 again and finally noticed, that there Hurricane hits the blocked opponent only once. So, I've done that.
-I don't know what can I use for stones there, really. It just looks wrong with Landing Explod. Sound, on the other hand, it already applied.
-I agree that WAS a mistake. I've just explained the way it actually worked better. At any rate, I've managed to fix this problem and now you can pick the knife up any way possible: and simultaneous commands, and punches slightly before releasing the down button, and after. I actually like how comfortable it's to pick this damn knife up now.
-Not in this case, pal. You see, I've used "SFA3 Max" for PSP, and it has a concrete Training mode, with fight data in it and so on. So, I can assure you: aside from some basic maths (1 SFA3 Point * 7 to M.U.G.E.N. * 0.8 to P.o.T.S.) the damage I've used is legit.
MAX Charged Stone:

Knife:

-Well, maybe. But that's how it is for SF4. At least, for Vanilla SSF4 I have for my PS3. Training with Fight Data is there too. And I can't really go with SF5 version, you know...
Once again, thanks for the feedback. Cody with listed fixes and Balrog with fixed MP problem and swat out debug flood are uploaded already.
=========[Edit: the answer to RagingRowen:]==============
I assume he didn't have Super Cancels in USF4 (or whatever version of that game you're referencing) either, maybe SF5?
No, I don't think we should even think about SFV version having Super Cancels.
Just remember his Critical Art (AKA Giant Criminal Upper), and you'll understand, that THIS Super just works TOO differently from what he had in SFA3 and SF4.
I mean, unlike the Supers he has in SFA3, that Screw Upper is, basically, a failproof juggle tool, so there IS a need to cancel into. But this won't help 2 other Supers to get any more useful in these conditions, and since I DON'T play adding that super in, there is just no need for Super Cancel: the only super that canceling would work for is more than working even without it since Cody gives you a hefty piece of timing with his Criminal Upper, and even then it's not even that worth it (I REALLY need to check how does Last Dread Dust work at juggle).
Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 11:05:42 am by Trololo

DW

Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#27  February 28, 2020, 03:13:08 pm
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Let's just say, I had a real motivation to make this Cody as good as possible, and I don't want that motivation to happen again.

Umm ok...? I'm not sure why you wouldn't want that type of motivation again, especially when it achieves these results. Disappointing to hear, because I had hopes before you even did this, that you would improve and update Adon. I saw you had the potential, it came full circle here with Cody.

-Not in this case, pal. You see, I've used "SFA3 Max" for PSP, and it has a concrete Training mode, with fight data in it and so on. So, I can assure you: aside from some basic maths (1 SFA3 Point * 7 to M.U.G.E.N. * 0.8 to P.o.T.S.) the damage I've used is legit.

That's cool and is also the version I'm using when comparing them. I didn't turn on the advanced data. I just assumed it would, as all his normals are more powerful when he has the knife equipped.  Weird that they did it like that, but hey, it is what it is.
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#28  February 28, 2020, 03:31:27 pm
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Let's just say, I had a real motivation to make this Cody as good as possible, and I don't want that motivation to happen again.

Umm ok...? I'm not sure why you wouldn't want that type of motivation again, especially when it achieves these results. Disappointing to hear, because I had hopes before you even did this, that you would improve and update Adon. I saw you had the potential, it came full circle here with Cody.

Because [Drama Start] I've started this Cody out of anger and spite.
I've got Motivated like that by Varo_Hades's Cody. I'm taking it kinda personal that the man, who's in MUGEN long before me and, basically, was there for me when I started out, the man I could call my first Non-Russian MUGEN Pal does his stuff THIS badly. Man, his Cody is UNHOLY! And to add an insult to injury, it was his OLDER project, started LONG before that COmmission Streak of his. I thought at least THAT should make him treat that Cody better than the rest, but no. That's the worst character of his so far.
That was my motivation: to, basically, call Varo out. To show, what we WERE SUPPOSED TO GET FROM HIM.
Sure, I've made a good character, and I WANT to make more like this, but I don't want to have a trigger like this anymore.
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#29  February 28, 2020, 05:44:20 pm
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You've engineered a problem for yourself that you don't need to have. You know you're capable of this sort of work, and you have actually put out a quality product. Nothing is stopping you from doing that again. Theres no requirement for you to be angry over bad characters to do it again. You just have to want to put in the work. I think its silly to say "Im showing what we want to get from this character" in this specific instance. I think you should do that for all your characters, no? You're showing us how you would want a character to play when you release something. You did a great job, and I hope to see more from you.
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#30  February 28, 2020, 09:28:37 pm
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Another suggestion would be using a config for Voices, it would be easier to control where voices play since you have variables. Infinite does this and I am conformable with it.
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Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#31  February 28, 2020, 09:40:18 pm
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I enjoy a lot your version of Cody bro, specially the Level 3 Super.
Keep your heads up Trololo, you still doing great stuff man. :)

Probably i'll do a SFV voice patch for him.

DW

Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#32  February 29, 2020, 03:19:16 am
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Some more feedback for Codster:

-I sorta knew this was gonna be an issue. While it's not the biggest deal, I'm gonna mention it anyway cuz of OCD... Punch throws beginning bindings are odd, because he's not wearing handcuffs for the casual sff.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

This throw has him wrap p2's neck in the chains of the cuffs, but as you can see in the pic above, he's just holding nothing for the first few frames. I can appreciate the option, but honestly I just would have went with the FF attire sff. There's really no way to compensate for this between sffs... I'll just adjust it myself, since I don't use the jail sff anyway. Just thought you should know

-Kick throw is animated wrong for p2:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

They should not be facing towards the ground while descending into it. You have the frame inverted vertically.

-His turns intro is weird. He jumps in, sits down and tosses stones, like his normal intro? This just looks odd. You should just use his taunt. Or like, his winpose shrug animation.

-Criminal Upper does not only hit once on block in SFA3. Just tested it myself. As you have it now, it leaves Cody at a HUGE disadvantage on block. The Y vel for p2 for air guard isn't as much as you have it currently either. P2 goes up too high on air guard, which actually gives Cody an unfair advantage to hit p2 with air unblockable attacks as they float down from blocking C.Upper.

Also, still on C.Upper, it remains active even after Cody is hit during it. I'm pretty sure that's not a thing, but I will check SFA3.
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#33  February 29, 2020, 03:38:24 am
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 - he flips horizontally during the end of his punch throw; I assume there's a leftover Turn sctrl in there somewhere that shouldn't be activating at that time (or at all maybe).
 - people have mentioned Bad Stone not having a visual effect when it hits the ground (it already splits apart into 3 pieces when it hits so another effect on top of that seems superfluous IMO), but I don't think anyone has said anything about the sound effect that plays when it hits the floor, which seems to be the same sound in CvS2 used when an energy projectile does when it hits the ground. And that's just really off-putting for a small rock! SFA3 doesn't have a sound for this either, but I think it should have something... I just don't have any suggestions for what should be used instead.
 - everything else I noticed was already mentioned

-His Criminal Upper special causes too much chip damage imo. Shouldn't be 7 chip per hit on multi hitting moves like this.
SFA3 handles this in an interesting way (probably no other way to do it, since chip does the absolute bare minimum of 1 damage out of the total 144 default lifepoints), and it might be the best way to implement it here: though Criminal Upper will deliver the same amount of hits when blocked as it does when it hits, only 2 of those hits actually do chip damage. I guess it just seems more sensible than having everything do less than 7 damage to me (cuz Capcom games always have 7 as the minimum amount of damage that can be done). Interestingly, it does do guard meter damage for all the hits!

DW

Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#34  February 29, 2020, 03:48:10 am
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- people have mentioned Bad Stone not having a visual effect when it hits the ground (it already splits apart into 3 pieces when it hits so another effect on top of that seems superfluous IMO), but I don't think anyone has said anything about the sound effect that plays when it hits the floor, which seems to be the same sound in CvS2 used when an energy projectile does when it hits the ground. And that's just really off-putting for a small rock! SFA3 doesn't have a sound for this either, but I think it should have something... I just don't have any suggestions for what should be used instead.

I did mention it. In my initial feedback post. :P But that's what I suggested... :(


SFA3 handles this in an interesting way (probably no other way to do it, since chip does the absolute bare minimum of 1 damage out of the total 144 default lifepoints), and it might be the best way to implement it here: though Criminal Upper will deliver the same amount of hits when blocked as it does when it hits, only 2 of those hits actually do chip damage. I guess it just seems more sensible than having everything do less than 7 damage to me (cuz Capcom games always have 7 as the minimum amount of damage that can be done). Interestingly, it does do guard meter damage for all the hits!

Meh... I was abusing this imo, getting like close to confirmed Medium normals damage on block C.Upper. I guess, I don't have a huge problem with it. Though it feels a bit much. IDK if he could do something like, split hitdefs to determine between whether it hits or is guarded... But nah... You're right, that's too much off a hassle honestly.
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#35  February 29, 2020, 04:39:52 am
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Didn't cody have a running animation in a intro or something ? where he runs away from a cop ? I guess its an end pose.
I remember his eyes were all weird on that one though.


For the jail sprite set this is somewhat usable for the normal one it will make no sense. If this is touched up it can be good.

Also why not add the dust trails to the kicks ?
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#36  February 29, 2020, 04:54:00 am
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Umezono, thanks. I know that whole story sounds stupid pretty much the reason I didn't tell it right away. Also, I guess, there was a small misunderstanding of my words. I didn't say "I don't want to try like that UNTIL I'm angry". I said, "I don't want to try like that BECAUSE I'm angry". I sure wish the next stuff, whatever that may be, will be made without THIS kind of motivation.

Raging Rowen, nah. Sorry, but "different files" is just how I like it. xD

Nice video, Gui. Thanks.

PeXXeR, I'm NOT using that run as a normal one. That's just too ridiculous for that.
And about Skid: I already use skid dust. Just the different one.


-I sorta knew this was gonna be an issue. While it's not the biggest deal, I'm gonna mention it anyway cuz of OCD... Punch throws beginning bindings are odd, because he's not wearing handcuffs for the casual sff.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
This throw has him wrap p2's neck in the chains of the cuffs, but as you can see in the pic above, he's just holding nothing for the first few frames. I can appreciate the option, but honestly I just would have went with the FF attire sff. There's really no way to compensate for this between sffs... I'll just adjust it myself, since I don't use the jail sff anyway. Just thought you should know
Well, it's still better like that than if I'd do the opposite thing and offset the position of the enemy closer to Cody.

-Kick throw is animated wrong for p2:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
They should not be facing towards the ground while descending into it. You have the frame inverted vertically.


-His turns intro is weird. He jumps in, sits down and tosses stones, like his normal intro? This just looks odd. You should just use his taunt. Or like, his winpose shrug animation.
Crap. That feel when you actually make the Intro but forget to link it to Turns Intro. xD

-Criminal Upper does not only hit once on block in SFA3. Just tested it myself. As you have it now, it leaves Cody at a HUGE disadvantage on block. The Y vel for p2 for air guard isn't as much as you have it currently either. P2 goes up too high on air guard, which actually gives Cody an unfair advantage to hit p2 with air unblockable attacks as they float down from blocking C.Upper.
I see. Yeah, I didn't take care of Guard.HitVels C.Upper was supposed to create. Messed with Vels + with Guard Times to make this move safe.

Also, still on C.Upper, it remains active even after Cody is hit during it. I'm pretty sure that's not a thing, but I will check SFA3.
Got it. Fixed it.

- he flips horizontally during the end of his punch throw; I assume there's a leftover Turn sctrl in there somewhere that shouldn't be activating at that time (or at all maybe).
That's no Flip. Believe it or not, but THIS is how this throw ACTUALLY supposed to behave. Check the animation.

- people have mentioned Bad Stone not having a visual effect when it hits the ground (it already splits apart into 3 pieces when it hits so another effect on top of that seems superfluous IMO), but I don't think anyone has said anything about the sound effect that plays when it hits the floor, which seems to be the same sound in CvS2 used when an energy projectile does when it hits the ground. And that's just really off-putting for a small rock! SFA3 doesn't have a sound for this either, but I think it should have something... I just don't have any suggestions for what should be used instead.
I know. But, I guess, I've found a (kinda) good sound to change it with... Though I'm open for suggestions about the sound if anyone has them.
Last Edit: February 29, 2020, 04:59:50 am by Trololo
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#37  February 29, 2020, 05:14:28 am
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It does not look all that bad to me tbh. Current one looks like Guile.
I am not saying that you should use it or anything, It was me remembering that cody had one, again it can be a good base for a new version though.

Looking at it though, yeah its a tad bit goofy as the end pose was played for laughs.

DW

Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#38  February 29, 2020, 05:17:53 am
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Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Bruh... I like how you gave no explanation and showed that pic like it just proves a point... Lol, if anything, it proves my point. Cody isn't inverted in that pic, he's on his side. That's just how his sprite looks. I'm LITERALLY doing the throw as I type this. I've done it on Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Fei-Long... Not about to do it on the whole cast man. Look for yourself. On more than just Cody. Which he isn't inverted either.
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#39  February 29, 2020, 05:42:13 am
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Damn, is see it now. xD
But I still have to work around how it actually is supposed to be, since, as far as I can see, it won't work properly with everyone like that.
===========[Edit]=============
Well, I guess I've found a compromise. One again AngleSet prevails.
Sure, it's not real HOTG sprites, but can't play with them, as I said. Plus, now Cody himself won't be on his side or belly.
Last Edit: February 29, 2020, 05:53:06 am by Trololo
Re: Cody by Trololo Released (+Balrog Seriously Updated)
#40  February 29, 2020, 06:02:43 am
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I did mention it. In my initial feedback post. :P But that's what I suggested... :(
SFX is not necessarily sound FX! It could be special FX!!! >:[

Meh... I was abusing this imo, getting like close to confirmed Medium normals damage on block C.Upper. I guess, I don't have a huge problem with it. Though it feels a bit much. IDK if he could do something like, split hitdefs to determine between whether it hits or is guarded... But nah... You're right, that's too much off a hassle honestly.
It's probably best to just follow Capcom's example; having all 5 hits do chip damage so rapidly just doesn't feel right.

PeXXeR, I'm NOT using that run as a normal one. That's just too ridiculous for that.
Plenty of CvS2 characters have wacky run animations. Especially the Alpha characters!

That's no Flip. Believe it or not, but THIS is how this throw ACTUALLY supposed to behave. Check the animation.
I did:









He suddenly turns around once P2 goes flying off, which very much does not happen in SFA3.