I am having trouble letting go.
Why DEV promotes this version and not the previous one?
Easy. The Elecbyte1 version clearly altered the program modifying the names of the creators, thus Elecbyte is not credited as the original creators.
Rou Hei's version keeps Elecbyte's name intact, and only unlocks modes that are already included in the executable. We believe that Rou Hei's work is in the "gray area" while Elecbyte1's ones is clearly negative from all points of view.
Plus, I invite the rest of the staff to look carefully the "history of winmugen" posted at DEV, where we clearly state why we promote this version.
And last but not least, our effort is to "control" in some way the alterations made to the engine. It's unavoidable that people is hacking the engine. However, if we promote and support an unlocked version, this could refrain other groups tryinf to hack the engine, and who knows, attaching a trojan in it.
I would like to hear your opinion about this, but I expect you will fully agree with our decission.
Unless, of course, someone actually took the time to collect such comments made over here and quote them at Dev (preferably mentioning their source :P ) so Rou Hei would get all the info brought to him there...
Winmugen has a new version of KFM (1 special added) ;DSo does Linux Mugen. :P (And both with new palettes as well.)
Finally a KFM official update :P
So what do you think folks... should we remove the rule regarding WinMugen hacks?...Might as well. Noone will be using elecbyte1's version now anyway.
... but with a Sticky topic and some posts commenting on that version here, surely several other forums would end up noticing and discussing the topic - then there'd reallly be no way to make sure that all commants got collected in the same place, but Rou Hei could hope to get some of the best feedback at Dev and some japanese forums where this may be a topic as well...Considering the actual developer behind this is posting at Dev I am sure that is incentive enough to post there instead. Since the problem can be immediately addressed.
Unless, of course, someone actually took the time to collect such comments made over here and quote them at Dev (preferably mentioning their source :P ) so Rou Hei would get all the info brought to him there...
I'm pretty sure that important things previously unnoticed would somehow find their way over to Dev. After all, a lot of Guild members are registered at Dev and vice versa. They ain't exactly isolated isles. =)
All feedback must be done through DEV, so it's ok to spread the news about the hack, but please add the link to the special area in DEV.
It was merely decided to try a different approach this time, for the better or worse.
All feedback must be done through DEV, so it's ok to spread the news about the hack, but please add the link to the special area in DEV.
Should Elecbyte find out about this new hack (so far it seems unlikely, unless they've secretly kept an account at Dev for some time and happen to drop by one of these days, or perhaps many months from now) and tell Rou Hei to stop, would this reflect on that new section of Dev's?...
With the renewal of the elecbyte.com domain name for another year, how can we be sure that's not a possibility?...
Considering Dev's completely opposite attitudes regarding the subject at different times still within the validity of that domain name, I think it's reasonable to ask about this...
@Sepp: Yes, you can argue that this is only a maneuver to revive DEV, but it doesn't really matter if it is or not.
I fully agree that if possible all feedback go back to Dev.
But should we not expand the rights to use abandoned stuff that creators left behind?
To me allowing this is more severe than simply grabbing some stuff a creator abandoned.
But along that same line of thinking, I can take a character made for the much older DOS mugen by a long gone creator, patch it up to work in the latest DOS mugen and add new bells and whistles, and re-release it just as long as I give full credit to the original creator.
We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:"Elecbyte1"
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site"Giving the idea" isn't as solid as the fact that the domain name was renewed.
- the DOS hack (yes, there was one prior to the winmugen one) was full with flames to certain members of the community as well, as discrediting Elecbyte.The one Messatsu posted about?
We promote Rouhei's version because:Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such versionBut now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.
We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
I prefer having a version working and the community happy with it and praising Elecbyte as the original creators, than everybody using a warezed/hacked version crediting to Elecbyte1 (or any other name since you can change it) and forgetting in the long run that mugen originated from Elecbyte.I seriously doubt that Elecbyte will ever be completely forgotten by anyone who knows Mugen, and as for the eventual praising of the likes of Elecbyte1, Dev sure helped RouHei get a lot of attention and vice-versa.
I don't want wither to find winmugen spreading in underground/warez scenes and people from the mugen community migrating to those communities. That will mean the end of our community.It's already not unusual to find Mugen sections in roms/warez sites,not to mention Mugen games on places like eBay - this won't change a thing about that, other than make Mugen an even more popular choice at such places now that it's easier to find a fully functional version of the program for Windows.
regarding the banned people from the elecbyte1 incident, you can unban them. I wonder why you didn't unban them before, since that ban was intended as a temporary one and not a definite one.All were unbanned before Nunor changed the penalty from banning to muting - except PacificAngra because he'd created a new account by then. I've contacted Nunor about that decision, since it's obsolete now, not to mention it'd stop new accounts - he barely posts, so the IP ban set by Val just for PA could be removed.
Now it's time for some hypothesis.The Elecbyte1 bans were also based on a hypothesis: that as long as a hack was around Elecbyte wouldn't return.
MFG can announce rouhei's version freely.We know it can - we just haven't decided if it will, and what else will change if it does... and messing with the root of the community will imply other changes if we wish to be coherent about it...
We only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it.Unless someone sends him links to off-Dev topics where his work is discussed.
The fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum.There's no concern about stealing of members - especially because Dev took the initiative of banning many of theirs for reasons which weren't always worth it.
Btw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities?Ask Nunor - the Guild forum was an offspring of the Guild site, like the original Dev spawned from Mugen4ever.
Then, why are you forbidding the possibility for such members to register in another community so they can post their feedback?When did I try to forbid such a thing, as if it were possible?...
In DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG.You don't want requests there at all...
Why can MFG tell their members to go to DEV and post feedback. Seems unfairly to me if you don't allow that.For the time being nothing regarding Dev's WinMugen section is being allowed of forbidden past the current rule that forbids the discussion of Mugen hacks - if this bothers you today, you shouldn't have banned people here about it then.
Could you imagine a program like MAME if all developers used their own places to improve the program and weren't in touch with the other devleopers.Linux?
It happens that DEV was the first one to contact rouhei and he agreed with the idea, weeks before the "hack" was announced. It's the drawback of the resources that DEV has, and sadly MFG doesn't.Dev's resources are its staff, who contacted Rouhei - seeing as a member of Dev's staff is also part of this staff, it can be said both forums are sharing a resource: you.
The fact is that mugen community was fading and many creators either quit or kept their work under secrecy shared only with friends that happen to use a hacked mugen version.Many creators never needed a hacked WinMugen excuse to keep stuff private.
After the announcing of our decission, many creators have returned to business.Who?
In case it hasn't already been mentioned: We're already violating the license by using it beyond the expiration date, even if we're using DOS or Linux Mugen, right?
Personally, I think I'll wait until I get around to trying to contact someone from Elecbyte myself, probably the weekend after this one (don't wanna bother him while he's busy), before deciding about anything in regard to WinMugen.
Dreamslayer:
Unless vanished creator was known for message like NOT DO MODIFY or REDISTRIBUTE, yes.
Somehow all this chained my thoughts to a mental search for Limits of What Can Be Allowed and ended somewhat confusingly at There Are No Rules. But there are rules of thumb. Or something. Now I have to reread Traitor. Bastards.
I fully agree that if possible all feedback go back to Dev.
But should we not expand the rights to use abandoned stuff that creators left behind?
To me allowing this is more severe than simply grabbing some stuff a creator abandoned.
It's not the same, because a character that has been "abandoned" still works in your mugen.
And in case it doesn't you can release "patches" or fixes like Winane does with other characters (telling people how to fix X character)
The creator still has the property of the code and his work is credited. In the same way, Elecbyte is still the owner of elecbyte, and Rouhei's work credits elecbyte.
When a thief uses code from other creators, he doesn't credit them, thus it's against the ethic of the community.
As conclusion, characters abandoned still retains the ownership of the creator, because there's no need for official support in order to make it work, therfore you cannot take it as "abandonware". Mugen, in the other way, has been abandoned and there's no official support. Hence if you need to "fix" it in order to use it in newer computers.
I don't recall any past mention of such aquaintances... that'd explain the unusually deep knowledge of things like the SFF file format... :P
QuoteWe did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:"Elecbyte1"
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
"Whiners In Numbers May Ultimately Get Elecbyte Nixed"
"Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte"
Quote- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site"Giving the idea" isn't as solid as the fact that the domain name was renewed.
The one Messatsu posted about?
Which members of the community, BTW? Some quotes of that might help to understand this, especially the bit about "discrediting Elecbyte".
QuoteWe promote Rouhei's version because:Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
Several creators' sites still link to Elecbyte.com despite the fact that it doesn't work - it's hard to ignore that they created Mugen.
Quote- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such versionBut now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
Consequences of that are already visible, like FlowaGirl's decision to remove the DOS versions of this creations from his site and adding there a link to Rou Hei's site...
Quote- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.
QuoteWe have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
You said "DEV was the first one to contact rouhei", so it wasn't a choice, but an initiative - that's forcing a choice to be made here.
At least this time it's not forcing one of the options...
I seriously doubt that Elecbyte will ever be completely forgotten by anyone who knows Mugen, and as for the eventual praising of the likes of Elecbyte1, Dev sure helped RouHei get a lot of attention and vice-versa.
...
It's already not unusual to find Mugen sections in roms/warez sites,not to mention Mugen games on places like eBay - this won't change a thing about that, other than make Mugen an even more popular choice at such places now that it's easier to find a fully functional version of the program for Windows.
...
that's none of a Mugen forum's business unless the individual in question has a directly negative impact on the Mugen community.
BTW, if you intended the bans in question to be temporary, why didn't you say so back then or resorted to muting, which would have been temporary by default?
Mutings would have been reasonable enough, but you acted like you would have in Dev.
QuoteNow it's time for some hypothesis.The Elecbyte1 bans were also based on a hypothesis: that as long as a hack was around Elecbyte wouldn't return.
Changes between now and then? A domain name renewal and a more complete hack.
The WinMugen package is small, under 2 MB zipped - leaving stuff out in betas of more modern games with hundreds of MBs is typical due to download times/server strain, but really not the case with something this small.
QuoteWe only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it.Unless someone sends him links to off-Dev topics where his work is discussed.
QuoteThe fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum.There's no concern about stealing of members - especially because Dev took the initiative of banning many of theirs for reasons which weren't always worth it.
QuoteBtw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities?Ask Nunor - the Guild forum was an offspring of the Guild site, like the original Dev spawned from Mugen4ever.
QuoteIn DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG.You don't want requests there at all...
We're still discussing this, looking at it from as many points of view as possible, and trying to come up with a course of action, if any, to deal with this new factor - given the impact that this forum has on the community, this has to be very well thought out before we reach a conclusion.
...
Dev's resources are its staff, who contacted Rouhei - seeing as a member of Dev's staff is also part of this staff, it can be said both forums are sharing a resource: you.
Something like this affects all of the community, so you could have brought up the subject here before, but didn't.
Sadly.
QuoteAfter the announcing of our decission, many creators have returned to business.Who?
"A character I saw did this cool effect. How was it done?
========================================================
Take note of which states that character was in, and take a look at it
in his `.cns' file. The reason for the open file formats is so that you
can share techniques with other developers."
First of all, Loona, I don't know if you have a grudge against me, DEV, or a certain member in DEV's staff, and keep arguing because of that. My apologies if that's not true, but it's the only idea one can get from your messages.
Let's discuss your reply, since there are several points which are either non-sense or contradicted by yourself:
QuoteQuoteWe did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:"Elecbyte1"
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
"Whiners In Numbers May Ultimately Get Elecbyte Nixed"
"Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte"
So, in your wisdom, this is credit.
QuoteThe one Messatsu posted about?
Which members of the community, BTW? Some quotes of that might help to understand this, especially the bit about "discrediting Elecbyte".
To me, the fact of replacing "elecbyte" by "elecbyte1" and "****byte" (fuckbyte) is enough evidences of discrediting. If that's not discredit for you, then calling you "loonafucka" (motherfucker) shouldn't bother you, right? :P
QuoteQuoteWe promote Rouhei's version because:Pretty much everyone who can tell Mugen itself from "games" made with it knows it's Elecbyte's work, and even Elecbyte1 didn't bother to disguise that.
- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
Several creators' sites still link to Elecbyte.com despite the fact that it doesn't work - it's hard to ignore that they created Mugen.
I don't care about leechers and players that download the characters. They all know that elecbyte made mugen. I care about the games sold at ebay and Hong Kong stores with mugen compilations. Those that buy these games don't have a clue on who made mugen. If they buy a mugen game credited to "Mega enterprise" they will believe that. We cannot stop the selling of such games, thus I prefer at least that the games have a credit to the original creators. However, Loona, seems that your community concept is focused only on forums, while my concept os focused worldwide. As I said, we took the decision of the lesser evil. If you cannot see what's the lesser and what's the greater evil, it's not my fault.
QuoteQuote- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such versionBut now that Dev has decided to openly promote it, anyone who cares the slightest bit about Mugen and doesn't know about this version soon will, and the harm will have been done and impossible to fix...
Consequences of that are already visible, like FlowaGirl's decision to remove the DOS versions of this creations from his site and adding there a link to Rou Hei's site...
That's a complete non-sense and shows your poor understanding of the creator's point of view. Do you believe we wouldn't have stopped public releases of capcom characters' if Capcom did say "no" to our question about using their sprites?
QuoteQuote- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.This also applies to the Elecbyte1 version - the only major difference being that more features are unlocked, making it more appealing for things other than testing creations.
Is that difficult to understand for you that while the Elecbyte1 version modified credits adding useless content and flames, Rouhei's version simply unlocks what was there before? Rouhei's didn't add anything extra. All the unloocked modes were already included by elecbyte. Hence rouhei's version is exactly what Elecbyte gave to donators, while elecbyte1's added extra stuff. WE allow RH's version because it keeps Elecbyte's soul in it.
QuoteQuoteWe have chosen the lesser evil, as I said.Doesn't the "lesser evil" principle only apply when you're forced into a choice by forces outside you?
You said "DEV was the first one to contact rouhei", so it wasn't a choice, but an initiative - that's forcing a choice to be made here.
At least this time it's not forcing one of the options...
We saw that Rouhei was working on unlocking the character limit. We positively realized that if some guy did it, any one else could do that in only a matter of time. Then, we contacted RH and asked him about the difficulties unlocking the version, and he replied us that actually it was easy, as long you find the right spot. He happened to be the first one to find that out, but he was sure that other crackers will soon it sooner or later. Then, we took the decission of having a supported version, in hopes that once being unlocked, no one else will attempt to do that (and in the meanwhile, add extra stuff or modify elecbyte's credit). We were forced to take a decission in order to save the community and Elecbyte's name in the long run. It hasn't been easy for us, and we took into account every positive/negative factor it could arise with our decission. Also, several creators that counted with the community knowledge and experience were asked to say their opinion. After all that input, a decission was made. I'm sorry if you didn't qualify for that, but there are creators that have been longer in this community than you. Seems that you're angry for not being chosen. Don't blame that on me.
QuoteQuoteWe only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it.Unless someone sends him links to off-Dev topics where his work is discussed.
So you prefer him to waste time visiting spanish, brazilian, french, italian, esperanto... mugen forums, struggling at bad translations with babelfish and trying to figure it out what people comments about his work, rather than having a single place in english, where he's already registered, where can get hosting for his work in case his site goes down, where he can understand what people posts and etcetera...?
QuoteQuoteThe fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum.There's no concern about stealing of members - especially because Dev took the initiative of banning many of theirs for reasons which weren't always worth it.
Then, what's your concern about? I don't understand you
QuoteQuoteBtw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities?Ask Nunor - the Guild forum was an offspring of the Guild site, like the original Dev spawned from Mugen4ever.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Mugen DEV had no relation with M4E. DEV was K3nsh1n's personal forum. K3nsh1n, due to server problems, asked M4E's staff if they could host his forum M4E gave him space in the server as long as they could moderate the forum as well. It's not a springoff, it was just hosting.
QuoteQuoteIn DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG.You don't want requests there at all...
And? Is that a problem to you? Are you concerned about DEV's policy of no requests?? The fact that we don't allow requests doesn't mean that we cannot tell where to get such requests, either by google or by MFG.
QuoteWe're still discussing this, looking at it from as many points of view as possible, and trying to come up with a course of action, if any, to deal with this new factor - given the impact that this forum has on the community, this has to be very well thought out before we reach a conclusion.
...
Dev's resources are its staff, who contacted Rouhei - seeing as a member of Dev's staff is also part of this staff, it can be said both forums are sharing a resource: you.
Something like this affects all of the community, so you could have brought up the subject here before, but didn't.
Sadly.
The decision by the "veterans", who made up 99% of the team involved with the final decision to promote the hack, did it using experience and a fairly unbaised look towards the possible downsides/upsides of promoting the hack.
Certain members from the staff of this forum don't have such experience/and unbiased look to take this decission (that's not a critic, it's just the truth). And certainly, before taking any decission, it wasn't secure to allow the possibility of leaks or misunderstandings of that critical issue. If you weren't asked personally as a creator/experienced member of the community, then I'm sorry for you. Make more/better creations in the future and you will be asked.
There is no problem, if a creator picks an old character incompatible with the recent versions and updates to make it work, as long as he hasn't add any extra stuff.
In other words, if the resulting character is the same as the previous one. The problem is that thieves pick old characters and add crap on them. That's why it's not allowed. Fixing it to make it compatible in newer versions is ok, as long as nothing else is added, and credit is kept ot the original creator.
Hsieh's example is a good reference. He made a patch that improved Super Mario. But, he only released the patch, and you still need the original mario to get it to work. I don't see any problem about that.
In the same way, anyone could make a patch for X character that gives the character new features or fixes bugs, as long as he doesn't release the character attached. Palettes are a good example of that. Anyone can make his own palettes and release them, provided they don't put the character from another creator in it.
Rouhei's mugen simply patches and fixes something that is already in the executable. No extra stuff.
I managed to read all of XG's posts but I (no offense) couldn't last through 3 more long posts.
I still think the ban should be enforced if anyone promotes the elecbyte1 hack. I didn't think so because it was a hack but for the sole reason that it was something Elecbyte obviously did not feel like releasing to everyone.
The one thing that above all else is sacred for this community is Elecbyte. And something that I learned is no matter how much easier a certain shortcut makes things it is best to work with what you have at your disposal. It just seems that we are taking something from Elecbyte just to make it easier for some people. Not really caring if it does hurt them more or not.
If we are too be angry at anyone it is whomever is responsible for the initial elecbyte1 release. This situation would not have arised without that. And as for the bannings XG administered at the time, it was a reflex action.
"Great Scott! Some idiots are posting the beta hack of WinMugen!!! What do we do? This isn't suppossed to be publisized! This is a huge travesty to Elecbyte and the community!!!"
I picture that is somewhat along the lines of most that understood what was happening when they 1st saw it. I know I did. The emotion of the shock of seeing the link here (moderatiately speaking in your own back yard) Then the anger geared towards the one celebrating this. Seeing as it is something noone here was prepared for banning was the best option for something so severe.
Now months later the idea of the leak has settled more. XG on many occasions seems to have accepted that he did infact overreact a bit. So what to do next? Let a silent and underground community form around the hack itself?Or go with the original beta again and try to deteer(sp) people away from tinkering with the hack?
I think the only thing XG himself really did wrong was not trusting us to at least help us prepare for this. Dev is an intricate part of the community. So much so I rarely post there because I honestly do not feel worthy yet. As much as I help and and thankful to all those that respect me for that I still have not payed my dues enough to be a regular at Dev.
I think we should either add a sticky to this area of Dev, or make an area for it here too. If a board was here it would be primarily for posting the history and stressing the importance of Elecbyte. We could use the board to post updates to the beta as we do releases. And the feedback section would still be a link to Dev. Only admins and moderators and special members could post to add the updates. And we could move the Elecbyte support thread there as well.
In fact I think a board like that would be the best course of action.
I still think the ban should be enforced if anyone promotes the elecbyte1 hack. I didn't think so because it was a hack but for the sole reason that it was something Elecbyte obviously did not feel like releasing to everyone.The point of that statement was to be that I still feel the betas are the worst thing that can be encouraged in the forum. Including the version at hand. Then below that statement I was trying to say why I accept the fact that it is not the penalty. Sorry I did not word that well.
If you're referring to the Elecbyte1 hack, its use has been mostly creation testing... can't do much more with that, let alone form an underground community around it...No more like that would be the version that people would begin to hack/patch/update whatever word you wish to choose. Another lack of explaining on my part apparently :P That is why I figured it would get it's own following.
That never stopped quite a few... tread carefully and you'll be fine :PI am not worried about being banned. I think I would fit quite well there. But as you know I do not yet classify myself as a Developer.
Already at the Blargh-net forums, where a Sticky was created with a reference to Rou Hei's hack and Dev's section Pextin, a creator who's been around for a while, created a topic to comment on a problem with the hack - we can most likely expect a few here too if we do something like that...That is why only mods and other special people can reply. And the feedback link would lead to Dev.
Creating a section just for it would only encourage it more, which may not necessarily be a good thing...
I do believe there have been problems in the past when people have tried to make available to the public fixed versions of characters made for older versions of DOS Mugen...Yup Gohan and Electrocaid did that. The community was outraged >:( :P
QuoteI do believe there have been problems in the past when people have tried to make available to the public fixed versions of characters made for older versions of DOS Mugen...Yup Gohan and Electrocaid did that. The community was outraged >:( :P
We could just limit the talk of it to creations created for it as well. We could keep our rules the same and outlaw speaking of this here too. Although not to the extent we have in the past obviously or many Dev admins would be muted untill it was removed :P
My last idea is we wait on whatever Winane was going to do before we concrete anything.
Session Start: Sun Jun 20 19:07:03 2004
[19:07] <[Rolento]> It has been broken.
[19:07] <[Rolento]> The select screen has 3 people on it.
[19:13] <[Sepp]> Do we cry or celebrate now?
[19:14] <[Rolento]> We wait for now.
[19:14] <[Rolento]> Although I am suspicious of something here.
[19:16] <[Rolento]> Along with the altered form of the hacked mugen came a file simply known as ~
[19:17] <[Sepp]> Heh.
[19:17] <[Rolento]> I deleted it immediately just in case, but it was rather large. Scanned just after and found no viruses, but recommended to those that do get it to remove as quickly as possible.
[19:18] <[Sepp]> Haha, so it had nothing to do with the MUGEN version?
[19:19] <[Rolento]> I'd assume not.
[19:20] <[Rolento]> A text file exists in the archive that explains the hacker's intentions.
[19:21] <[Rolento]> And even gives an e-mail, which I question.
[19:21] <[Rolento]> 2 separate exes exist, one with debug text removed, the other with it still intact
[19:22] <[Sepp]> I hope it's not the "hacker" I know.
[19:22] <[Rolento]> Is he japanese? :P
[19:22] <[Sepp]> Not at all.
[19:22] <[Rolento]> Then no.
[19:23] <[Rolento]> "rouhei" is the name given.
[19:23] <[Sepp]> At least something.
[19:24] <[Rolento]> rouhei june 10 2004
[19:24] <[Rolento]> roh_hei@yahoo.co.jp
[19:24] <[Rolento]> http://www.attic7.com/unofficial/
[19:24] <[Rolento]> He gives a lot of information here. Be wary if you check.
[19:25] <[Rolento]> if you want stop of release to public , please send
[19:25] <[Rolento]> your view to roh_hei@yahoo.co.jp .
[19:25] <[Rolento]> I will read it seriously & think & send reply to you.
[19:28] <[Sepp]> It was only a matter of time. Good thing it was him and not someone else.
[19:28] <[Sepp]> BRB
[19:28] <[Rolento]> Ok.
[19:49] <[Sepp]> Baaack.
[19:50] <[Sepp]> Well, japanese guy _could_ have included only the files he modified instead of everything. But okay, he wants to spread the love, so he uploaded the whole package.
[19:51] <[Rolento]> You went to the site.
[19:51] <[Sepp]> Yes.
[19:52] * [Sepp] reads.
[19:55] <[Sepp]> That fix file is for people who already have WinMUGEN I assume?
[19:58] <[Rolento]> The one I was linked to had the whole thing in it.
[19:58] <[Rolento]> I'm not sure which is which, or what the second one is.
[19:58] <[Sepp]> The full one is the first. FIX seems to be a kind of UPDATER.
[19:59] <[Sepp]> Bleh. So he removed the debug font from the font file. Rather unsophisticated.
[20:01] <[Rolento]> If it works, it works.
[20:03] <[Sepp]> It sucks because you cannot use Debug at all that way. Well, for Debug he's included the other .exe. Okay.
[20:05] <[Sepp]> One thing... which WinMUGEN version is that based on? Hmmm...
[20:05] <[Rolento]> Hacked version.
[20:05] <[Sepp]> Just checked... right.
[20:05] <[Sepp]> Oh well.
[20:07] <[Sepp]> I had no ~ file anywhere in there, btw.
[20:07] <[Rolento]> Strange.
[20:07] <[Rolento]> I found it outside myself.
[20:08] <[Sepp]> Mh.
[20:08] <[Sepp]> Who found the page?
[20:08] <[Rolento]> Herman, but he doesn't need to know that you are aware.
[20:08] <[Rolento]> Actually, make that a friend of Herman.
[20:09] <[Sepp]> It's b een 10 days.
[20:12] <[Sepp]> I'd been thinkign exactly about what ShoShingo then posted on MS a few weeks ago. And what, basically, this japanese guy has done now.
[20:13] <[Rolento]> Indeed.
[20:13] <[Sepp]> Except that I would go one step further. Like, the Story of Elecbyte and WinMUGEN as we know it.
[20:20] <[Rolento]> Hmm.
[20:33] <[Rolento]> Probably the only way to properly display the history of it would to refer to a few people that want no part of it.
[20:41] <[Sepp]> back again. >_<
[20:42] <[Sepp]> No need for names.
[20:44] <[Rolento]> I wonder why whenever something is either private or strange, at least one person asks me if I know something about it.
[20:44] <[Sepp]> Haha.
[20:52] <[Rolento]> I can't even remember how the sound plugins are supposed to work for the music.
[20:53] <[Sepp]> I don't care much about them. Currently, I care about what "we" will do.
[20:55] <[Rolento]> A few options exist.
[20:56] <[Rolento]> 1. Try to reason with him to remove the site. Can't hedge bet on Elecbyte coming back, as that is unlikely at this point. Alternative argument needed.
[20:56] <[Sepp]> I had been thinking about posting, pre-faced with something like "This is the best we know, according many trusted sources, most of which will remain unnamed for obvious reasons." .... no idea, something. A big post through one account, checked by some "insiders" before posting.
[20:57] <[Rolento]> 2. Shut down the site by force. Illegal software is illegal software.
[20:59] <[Rolento]> 3. Stand by and do nothing.
[20:59] <[Sepp]> Futile, 2. We cannot hope to win. We can only slow "it" down.
[20:59] <[Sepp]> Some goes for 1.
[20:59] <[Sepp]> It's been 10 days.
[21:00] <[Rolento]> Guild and Dev are set up so that any postings of this will be shut down.
[21:00] <[Rolento]> Mgbr would also likely shoot this down at this point.
[21:01] <[Sepp]> The number 1 reason for this, as Sho pointed out, was Elecbyte. Is it still?
[21:02] <[Rolento]> That's why I said alternative.
[21:03] <[Sepp]> Is there another one? If the Elecbyte argument breaks down, that's it.
[21:06] <[Rolento]> Hmm.
[21:06] <[Rolento]> Sadly, I cannot think of one.
[21:08] <[Sepp]> Looking at it another way would produce the opposite of "Sadly."
[21:09] <[Sepp]> WinMUGEN for everyone, and unlimited? "Hurray."
[21:10] <[Rolento]> Still same disabled modes, music issues, and the "fatal flaw" which is still unknown.
[21:10] <[Sepp]> Flaw?
[21:10] <[Sepp]> What's that? (didn't acutally test this version much)
[21:10] <[Rolento]> "fatal flaw" which is still unknown. <--- :P
[21:10] <[Sepp]> o_O
[21:10] <[Sepp]> A joke? :x
[21:11] <[Rolento]> Whatever stalled programming for Elecbyte, assuming a problem really did exist.
[21:12] <[Sepp]> That. Chances are it was an external problem, but yeah.
[21:13] <[Sepp]> It's not on me to decide anything anyway.
[21:13] <[Sepp]> This would need to be discussed by more than 2 people.
[21:13] <[Rolento]> Actually, a 4th option exists.
[21:13] <[Rolento]> Allow it, but control it.
[21:14] <[Sepp]> Controlling the Internet?
[21:14] <[Rolento]> No. Control this hack.
[21:14] <[Sepp]> I still don't understand. :)
[21:15] <[Rolento]> Personally deal with Rou Hei, and we work something out about this hack.
[21:16] <[Sepp]> I see.
[21:18] <[Sepp]> This could be and probably should done. Making that Story post, and including it everywhere possible.
[21:18] <[Sepp]> Rou thinks it was released in August 03.
[21:18] <[Rolento]> I'd want it controlled 1st.
[21:18] <[Sepp]> I meant that.
[21:19] <[Rolento]> Then I guess someone should contact him.
[21:19] <[Sepp]> Get as much of that "inner circle" together as possible and neccessary.
[21:19] <[Sepp]> 2. write up the Story
[21:19] <[Sepp]> 3. check it with said circle
[21:19] <[Sepp]> 4. contact rou with it
[21:20] <[Sepp]> ~
[21:20] <[Sepp]> 5. contact everyone else?
[21:20] <[Rolento]> Questionable on that last one.
[21:21] <[Sepp]> Question remains, of why. Because we're all gotten accustomed to being elitist bitches?
[21:21] <[Rolento]> In a word, yes.
[21:21] <[Sepp]> Fair enough.
[21:22] <[Rolento]> This conversation itself attests to that. :P
[21:22] <[Sepp]> From a certain point of view. :D
[21:22] <[Sepp]> Alrgiht. Get going. Who's Inner Circle?
[21:22] <[Rolento]> I'll worry about that. :P
[21:23] <[Sepp]> And what, write a list?
[21:23] <[Rolento]> More like gather the people.
[21:24] <[Sepp]> How direct~!
"Sith? Jedi?" she said. "Are these the only choices? Dark or light, good or evil? Is there no more to the Force than this? What is the screen on which light and dark cast their shapes and shadows? Where is the ground on which stands good and evil?"
We were and are convinced we did the Right Thing, as "illegal" as it might be. If you are convinced we did the Wrong Thing, that's okay. But both positions would have a hard time standing up in court, seeing how we don't have real fact- and law-based arguments and you apparently neither.This sums up the ethic and moral implecations very well.
What should we do now, Loona?At the moment he wants to wait for whatever Winane is going to do. Untill then the current forum rules apply.
@Dreamslayer: What do you refer by "homage to elecbyte"? There's already a topic explianing elecbyte's history. Care to develop?To make sure I did not overlook I checked again. There is a history for WinMugen but nothing about the history of Elecbyte. (Keep in mind I only checked the WinMugen board)
Personally, I think I'll wait until I get around to trying to contact someone from Elecbyte myself, probably the weekend after this one (don't wanna bother him while he's busy), before deciding about anything in regard to WinMugen.
Along these same lines, what about taking characters with stolen code/sprites, and cleaning them up (like Ogre, for example)?
You mean taking the illegitimate parts of the character, keeping the legitimate stuff, and hosting it, for example?...
As for implications of possibly allowing the discussion of the hack here, would anyone be fundamentaly against the allowing of creation updates made in the same mold as Rou Hei's hack (couple of years of original creator's absence that makes him practically impossible to contact, proper credit given where its due, compromise to withdraw the update if the original creator asks for it) if the original creator never left anything specifically stated about the use of his stuff?...
My 2 cents: I agree with you on those counts pretty much XD, with the exception of excluding creations with stolen stuff: as I already said, cleaning them up might be the best way to do away with them altogether, IMHO.
In the case of Ogre you have ALOT to correct though :P
Not talking codewise but accuracy wise.
But how does one know what all coding is stolen and what coding is Jun's?
Might be best to go touch and go: ask the community what *exactly* has been stolen in what character/stage etc, and go from there, fixing it up as it comes out.
What classifies a creation to be updated for being abandoned:
1) Creator cannot be reached by email, IRC, ICQ, MSN or any other way.
2) Creator's site doesn't exist anymore
3) No known friends or contacts that are in touch with the creator, or that can authorize/deny the use fo the abandoned creator.
4) More than 2 years have passed since the release of the character.
Once all these conditions have been checked, the creation can be used as long as a text file is attached with the updated creation.
This text file will contain:
1) Email addresses or methods used to contact the creator without success
2) url of the site that is not existing anymore
3) Name of the people that have been contacted in order to find out if the character was allowed to be used.
4) Date of the last public release.
5) A statement that if the original creator ever returns or decides that no one should work on that creation, the distribution of the updated creation must cease.
Of course, the original creator must be credited always. And if part of sprites/code is used in another character, then the "borrowed" parts must be credited as well.
Private releases and creations that already contained stolen stuff aren't applicable to this new standard.
Edit: My
"Unless vanished creator was known for messages like DO NOT MODIFY or REDISTRIBUTE, yes." from 3 billion words earlier in this topic stands, and should enough for a guidline.
But don't we have to verify this with other communities 1st? If I recall the japanese community is very picky about "updating".
If not we will be in the same situation as MGBR. Many creators in that community believe all is open source.
Can we please not make The Rules of MUGEN 354 pages long? Thank you.you are so right!
Ogre doesn't really strike me the kind of character that was meant to be accurate... :PHis basic structure needs to be more accurate :P Not his moveset. I figure the creator at least wanted the core of the character to be more accurate. At least he better had >:)
Why don't we just base the way we allow these updates on the standard of procedure XG said.
Stating that leniency straying away from these abit will be tolerated under certain circumstances.
I don't want the rules getting longer either :P The standard is a nice base and Loona has good points too so some leaveway from the standard should be acceptable.
Make a new release/wip board for creations like this. This way the creator can announce the WIP and ask if he/she is unshure if they are straying too far away from the standard.
Or make it so that only creators can do so in the creator release and private release boards.
The pros of this are that if the person has the creator status it is generally accepted that that person took a descent amount of time and knows the trials and time consuming nature of creating. This way it may be easier for other communities to accept since the creator has already established a knowhow.
The cons of that one is not all people that are creators have this status. OrochiKOF97 for one.
This isn't gettingus
nowhere
this discussion took 5 page full of monster-posts, 1 of them being off-topic about old creators and char updates.
the conclusion will either be "we allow it" or "there is no other way, so we allow it", so what are you discussing about?!
And we can not wait for Nunor's opinion everytime something's to be decided, because he's just too rarely around.
However, we have to admit that this winmugen hack was necessary for the sake and preservation of the community.
Considering that what some people dislike the most about Mugen is the communityThose people are the one who deserve to disappear. Loona, you have an answer for everything! So what is your final answer concerning Winmugen?
Loona, you have an answer for everything!
This would have probably been taken care of ages ago if things had been discussed at the same time, or at least soon after, Dev made a non-public decision regarding the RouHei hack support... lovely...
I thought it was pretty clear... "if an unnoficial Mugen update is allowed, how similar/different must a situation be when it comes to mugen creation for it to be allowed as well?" - I don't know about you, but I'd rather try and be consistent about the policies of this forum...
Updates and use of abandoned characters has already been covered through this thread. I think it's completely explained, and I regret the lack of participation in this issue of all staff members but a few ones.
Spending time in how to hanlde this new approach ijn the community is just wasting time.
This situation reminded me of the 0101->0627 transition. A great part of the community whined about elecbyte changing completely the engine, making tons of character simply not working anymore, and to re-learn most of the code in order to make your own characters. A lot of members of the community stated that they will stick with the 0101 version, that they will boycott Elecbyte by not creating anything for the new engine and crap like this. Others, in the other way, welcomed the change, and saw the improvements that the new version was offering. They didn't doubt at once to stop support for the 0101 and start working on the improved engine.
Now, we have an improved engine that allows more features than the obsolete and btw, illegal to use, DOS version. it's a backstep to stick with the old one.
Regarding the unauthorized update/theft of creations, we cannot avoid it, as we cannot avoid individuals making warehouses. Best we can do is teach the community about how to behave, and hope that these new-taught members will teach the same ethics to other communities where Mugen is not the top priority, but still has some importance. If we teach them the ethic and correct way on how to behave when you want to update old stuff, use other people's stuff, etc, it will benefit us in the long run.
This forum is expected to take a decission, as it was mentioned above: either allow it or not allow it. You cannot deny it's existance and usage.
However, either if you allow it or forbid it, we must set the proceudre for updates on old stuff, no matter what this forum regards with winmugen are.
Hello,
Sorry for this late reply : it is the first time in months I can access to this forum -_-.
Yeah Winane informed me that there had been some discussion about me releasing Q-Bee without his permissions. I doubt he will ever come back again but I decided to calm down people here by remaking her private. I've had a look just now at the forum and it seems that it worked.
That was the only element of the game for which I hadn't a permission though. For the rest, I'm totally "clean" (I've the mails of the different authors I used the work to confirm if it was ever necessary).
Since I'm not sure to be able to check again this message box before long (I'm currently using a different Internet line than usual), you can use my mail instead if you need to contact me : sunny@netcourrier.com.
See ya!
Between this long thread and the BlackJack long thread I bet the new mods are thinking we don't know what the hell we are doing around here :P