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Way to go Dev >:( =P (Read 20214 times)

Started by Cybasterd, June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 AM
Way to go Dev >:( =P
New #1  June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 AM
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http://www.shinmugen.net/dev/index.php?showforum=15

What is our course of action for this?
Do we make posts explaining the same thing?
Why not just make a sticky somewhere redirecting to Mugen Dev for discussions on this subject.

I am not totally thrilled with the idea of promoting this hack in the least but I guess desperate people do desperate things and there is no way to stop it.

And I cannot lie that some part of me wants to see this thrive as well. It is kind of a torn feeling of realizing I may have to let go I suppose.

Anyway what say the staff?

EDIT: @ XG is it okay to link the site outside of Dev?
Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 07:58:20 PM by Sepp
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#2  June 30, 2004, 03:27:08 AM
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Why DEV promotes this version and not the previous one?

Easy. The Elecbyte1 version clearly altered the program modifying the names of the creators, thus Elecbyte is not credited as the original creators.

Rou Hei's version keeps Elecbyte's name intact, and only unlocks modes that are already included in the executable. We believe that Rou Hei's work is in the "gray area" while Elecbyte1's ones is clearly negative from all points of view.

Plus, I invite the rest of the staff to look carefully the "history of winmugen" posted at DEV, where we clearly state why we promote this version.

And last but not least, our effort is to "control" in some way the alterations made to the engine. It's unavoidable that people is hacking the engine. However, if we promote and support an unlocked version, this could refrain other groups tryinf to hack the engine, and who knows, attaching a trojan in it.

I would like to hear your opinion about this, but I expect you will fully agree with our decission.
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#3  June 30, 2004, 03:37:25 AM
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Yes I know I am having trouble letting go. I am very happy I got to donate it makes me feel not as guilty.

I do not think you are trying to control and I read the history thoroughly.

I do think this will benefit the point of mugen and the community. An engine to create the best fighter.

This is a very remarkable thing and a very tragic thing to me at the same time. I will need time but I will support this for the reasons I stated above.

Also you may have replied before my edit. Is the link a Dev exclusive (do you want it posted elswhere or do you want links to your forum.) If only links to the forum get ready for many many new members :P
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#4  June 30, 2004, 03:57:02 AM
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All feedback must be done through DEV, so it's ok to spread the news about the hack, but please add the link to the special area in DEV.

The idea is to have a common knowledge base for winmugen's data. Things may go bad if everybody starts posting questions, bugs and requests in multiple forums. Plus, having DEV as the only reference point will keep Rou Hei's inbox safe.

And last but not least, DEV may serve as a gateway for other people to help Rou Hei in his work.  Having all possible help and resources scattered in multiple places won't help in any way the evolution of winmugen.

Rou Hei is a busy man and he cannot waste time surfing through multiple forums in order to gather feedback, plus his english skills aren't very good :)
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Re: Well
#5  June 30, 2004, 11:07:33 AM
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This hacking stuff would surely not have VANISHED if this had not been done.

Look at the Elecbyte1 case. The only things the previous seek-and-destroy policy achieved was slowing its distribution down a bit and "everybody" using it, but "secretly."

Sure, we could of continued this charade for another two years. But, ugh.

Personally, I think it was about time we came clean. Feels much better than persecuting everyone who talks about some kind of WinMUGEN while we have been using one or the other version ourselves for ages.

Furthermore, Rou Hei has the added bonus of Noble Purpose, which is extremely fortunate. I know of other hacking attempts (none of which came so far), and believe me, most other persons would be on a World Promotion Tour by now, Gloryfying Their Greatness.

Yuck.


Quote
I am having trouble letting go.

It's not like this was easily decided over night. Okay, it was, but after 2+ years of more or less discussing. So, yeah.

We had "all" gotten entirely to accustomed to being elitist bitches. Time for some more sharing.
"Several times now, Achamian thought he had glimpsed golden haloes about Kellhus's hands. He found himself envying those, such as Proyas, who claimed to see them all the time."
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Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 11:12:58 AM by Sepp
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#6  June 30, 2004, 06:19:55 PM
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So where would this be best posted at? There should be a locked sticky somewhere linking to the WinMugen board on Dev with what XG said above quoted.

I would think Mugen Discussion would be the best place.  
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#7  June 30, 2004, 07:23:33 PM
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Waiting for a yes/no/maybe/later/never from Loona.
"Several times now, Achamian thought he had glimpsed golden haloes about Kellhus's hands. He found himself envying those, such as Proyas, who claimed to see them all the time."
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ky0

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#8  June 30, 2004, 07:24:44 PM
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i'm glad somebody finally has the guts to put the thing on the table. It's time we stop the general hyprocrisy: Everybody is using this winmugen. So why don't we officialize it? I definatly agree with dev.
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Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 07:42:07 PM by kusanagi ky0
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#9  July 01, 2004, 06:49:39 AM
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I still have to check Dev and the topic(s) there regarding this - being busy with exams hasn't left me with that much time for forum affairs, which is why my visits over here have been rather brief recently, sticky to section like this one, Site feedback, seeing how the new Junk section's doing, checking (and eventually moving if necessary) some topic that catches my eye through the main page, trying to patch the recent gaps in the staff.

Later today I'll be checking out Dev for the first time in weeks, and gather more information on this topic - I'll most certainly need to, because after the Elecbyte1 WinMugen banning spree that took place by XGargoyle's hands without previous warning, which lead to an emergency update of the rules to cover this new problem, I'll really need to find some clear differences between the 2 cases... this'll most certainly take some explaining if we go ahead with a more tolerant take on the subject, considering last time lead to a loss of people who could be assets to the community, like Fuchikoma/Shiroi Kaze...

Edit: Finally read about it at Dev - I think my comments on it would also work well as replies to XG's post on this thread:

Why DEV promotes this version and not the previous one?

Easy. The Elecbyte1 version clearly altered the program modifying the names of the creators, thus Elecbyte is not credited as the original creators.

They also clearly stated in the documentation and site that that was a hack (they spelled it "haq"(ed), but I doubt there's any major difference in meaning...) and that they weren't Elecbyte ("Elecbyte1 isn't Elecbyte") - that left it rather clear that tweaked Elecbyte's work, instead of doing it all from scratch...

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Rou Hei's version keeps Elecbyte's name intact, and only unlocks modes that are already included in the executable. We believe that Rou Hei's work is in the "gray area" while Elecbyte1's ones is clearly negative from all points of view.

All points of view?...
In a way, the Elecbyte1 hack did restrict the use of the beta for testing, since it did little more than remove some annoying words from the screen - it was pretty much un-usable for actual play, and that's what lead to people's rejection of it in places like MGBR's portuguese section, where "damage control" was a lot slower than it was over here or at Dev - after a while, when some newbie brought up the subject, everyone's comments on it were unfavourable due to the 2-character limit and locked modes, praising only its convenience for testing characters, as it was unnecessary to open and close Mugen several times to test a character while programming (apparently one could keep open both WinMugen and a text editor window - for the coding - and every time you saved a change in the text editor, all you had to do to check on its effects was to make sure the hack would load the character again, probably by leaving Arcade mode and returning to it again).

The options now available in Rou Hei's version make it a lot more appealing for the average user due to the extra unlocked stuff.
He quite reasonably claims he'll quit working on that if Elecbyte returns with a version of their own, but people would be naturally inclined to switch to that anyway should that return take place - and would pretty much also be the case with the Elecbyte1 version had they unlocked that many features...

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Plus, I invite the rest of the staff to look carefully the "history of winmugen" posted at DEV, where we clearly state why we promote this version.

I did - but the differences don't seem that great to justify such completely different attitudes on the subject... Rou Hei's initiative to show what he changed in the code may be helpful for others to make their own attempts though...

Should Elecbyte find out about this new hack (so far it seems unlikely, unless they've secretly kept an account at Dev for some time and happen to drop by one of these days, or perhaps many months from now) and tell Rou Hei to stop, would this reflect on that new section of Dev's?...
With the renewal of the elecbyte.com domain name for another year, how can we be sure that's not a possibility?...
Considering Dev's completely opposite attitudes regarding the subject at different times still within the validity of that domain name, I think it's reasonable to ask about this...

Quote
And last but not least, our effort is to "control" in some way the alterations made to the engine. It's unavoidable that people is hacking the engine. However, if we promote and support an unlocked version, this could refrain other groups tryinf to hack the engine, and who knows, attaching a trojan in it.

This scary talk of trojans feels rather familar for some reason... oh well, let bygones be bygones, right?...

Quote
I would like to hear your opinion about this, but I expect you will fully agree with our decission.

Oh, I'm inclined to agree with supporting something like this alright, despite previous comments - I guess it's just that the memory of completely different attitudes on the subject and some measures that had to be taken on the matter are still all to fresh in my memory... that, and the renewal of the elecbyte.com domain name...

I guess this means Nunor's decision to change the penalty from mentioning WinMugen from bans to mutings turned out to be rather convenient should the forum change its attitude and rules regarding these matters...


So what do you think folks... should we remove the rule regarding WinMugen hacks?... I see no way of changing it to make Rou Hei's version acceptable when compared to Elecbyte1's... there isn't that much of a difference between them the way I see it... digging up a technicality to include or remove in the phrasing of the rule doesn't seem like much of an option...

And if we were to post a link to that new section of Dev's, we'd be breaking our own rule...

And, of course, there's no way to allow people to force people to only post feedback on Dev should we remove the rule and post a link to their WinMugen section... invariably the topic would come up here too, even if it was just when commenting on things that work differently between the DOS and Rou Hei version...

Unless, of course, someone actually took the time to collect such comments made over here and quote them at Dev (preferably mentioning their source :P ) so Rou Hei would get all the info brought to him there...

... but with a Sticky topic and some posts commenting on that version here, surely several other forums would end up noticing and discussing the topic - then there'd reallly be no way to make sure that all commants got collected in the same place, but Rou Hei could hope to get some of the best feedback at Dev and some japanese forums where this may be a topic as well...


Comments/opinions/suggestions anyone?...

ky0

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#10  July 01, 2004, 10:03:13 AM
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i understand your position loona. But you know, the fact is that more and more people will be using this hack, whether it's good or bad. Should we close our eyes on this or open them?
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Re: Way to go
#11  July 01, 2004, 10:55:55 AM
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Unless, of course, someone actually took the time to collect such comments made over here and quote them at Dev (preferably mentioning their source :P ) so Rou Hei would get all the info brought to him there...

I'm pretty sure that important things previously unnoticed would somehow find their way over to Dev. After all, a lot of Guild members are registered at Dev and vice versa. They ain't exactly isolated isles. =)

The difference to the Elecbyte1 situation -- ah, fuck this. We're not in court.

The directy from which that decission arouse should be rather clear by now, and it's not a whole lot more than what History says. And the situation was also not a whole lot different from Elecbyte1.

It was merely decided to try a different approach this time, for the better or worse.

It should at least be somewhat understandable, if only emotionally - even if upholding that in a trial would stand no chance.
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#12  July 01, 2004, 11:05:28 AM
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Off topic:
Winmugen has a new version of KFM (1 special added) ;D
Finally a KFM official update :P
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#13  July 01, 2004, 11:47:14 AM
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Winmugen has a new version of KFM (1 special added) ;D
Finally a KFM official update :P
So does Linux Mugen. :P  (And both with new palettes as well.)
An added bonus for those who downloaded my AI Kung Fu Men. :)
Still quite busy.

(Yes, I intend to deal with that stuff eventually, but kinda can't just yet, sorry. :/ )
Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:47:59 AM by Winane
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#14  July 01, 2004, 04:29:06 PM
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Quote
So what do you think folks... should we remove the rule regarding WinMugen hacks?...
Might as well. Noone will be using elecbyte1's version now anyway.

Quote
... but with a Sticky topic and some posts commenting on that version here, surely several other forums would end up noticing and discussing the topic - then there'd reallly be no way to make sure that all commants got collected in the same place, but Rou Hei could hope to get some of the best feedback at Dev and some japanese forums where this may be a topic as well...
Considering the actual developer behind this is posting at Dev I am sure that is incentive enough to post there instead. Since the problem can be immediately addressed.

Another problem I have with this besides what I stated above is the hypocritical side to this.

Here we are trying to teach others that if you cannot contact an author to use there work then you cannot host or alter it in any way and it must fade away.

Although in this instance it is a bit more severe as DOS support is fading away and many future creators need (yeah actually need not I NEED Ryu) this update if they wish to create at all.
But on the other side we are doing this not to just a mere creator but to Elecbyte. Taking something that they specifically said not to host in any version but especially the beta.

It is no different than releasing a private character.

Since I have Linux mugen I think I will stick with it. I kinda feel if the community wishes to accept this then it should also loosen up on other things. Since this is a hobby we do not NEED WinMugen just like mugen fans do not NEED what creators make.
Re: Way to go
#15  July 01, 2004, 11:15:05 PM
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Unless, of course, someone actually took the time to collect such comments made over here and quote them at Dev (preferably mentioning their source :P ) so Rou Hei would get all the info brought to him there...

I'm pretty sure that important things previously unnoticed would somehow find their way over to Dev. After all, a lot of Guild members are registered at Dev and vice versa. They ain't exactly isolated isles. =)

It's the fact that they're not isolated that makes this seem a bit too idealistic, bordering on the unrealistic:
Quote
All feedback must be done through DEV, so it's ok to spread the news about the hack, but please add the link to the special area in DEV.

The possible outcomes of making the WinMugen hacks rule here dissapear both include the link to that section of dev being posted here - from then on, either people are already registered there (some may keep their comments to Dev, and keep closer to the ideal/expectations XG presented here), or don't mind doing so (which could result in in a series of barbaric/newbie "invasions" at Dev of differing kinds of consequences), or don't bother, and keep their comments anywhere else as soon as they eventually get the link to Rou Hei's site (if it'd be OK to post about that section of Dev's in the forum, then it'd also be OK to post the link to Rou Hei's site, bypassing Dev).

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It was merely decided to try a different approach this time, for the better or worse.

I'd just had preferred if the 1st approach hadn't involved a series of bans in this forum without previous discussion or warning, when several other alternatives (dumping of threads, mutings, etc...) would have been just as viable (on the basis of promoting illegal content that this forum's pretty much always had, but which aren't and shouldn't be punished with bans as a first offense), and now taking an almost completely opposite attitude at Dev... it wasn't that long ago, so the contrast is still quite present, and these expectations of containment of discussion to Dev don't really help...
Re: Go >:( =P
#16  July 02, 2004, 11:33:31 AM
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By all means, people can bypass Dev all they want.

Quote
All feedback must be done through DEV, so it's ok to spread the news about the hack, but please add the link to the special area in DEV.

is just part of the obvious Dev-revival action. The link to Rou Hei's page could be posted here at Guild, along with a line saying "For more info [and/or bug reports, if you will], go DevSectionURLHere."

That's not even an order (hoho), more of a suggestion. Because Rou Hei is at Dev. If Guild people start OMG talking about it here and elsewhere too, so what?

Like I said, important news will most likely find its way, and that shouldn't cause harm to Dev nor Guild.

Containment was, as said, a Dev-comeback scheme that has somehat worked out - and did hardly "steal" Guild or other boards members or something.

Nobody forces no one to go to Dev, and of course the link will and has been spread already without even a mention of Dev, naturally.

That's the why that "History" file is in there, to keep "everyone" a bit informed. It does not talk about Dev, more about what should probably be know about WinMUGEN stuff.

As with all history, part of it is guesswork, part prejudice, and the added part of "It was a hard desicion, but there was simply no other choice." is simply a lie, but it might overall still be good enough to serve its purpose.


First attempt could have been otherwise indeed, but it hasn't.


"The rise or fall of a civilization can depend on the decision made in a fragment of a second. There are many seconds in a day. How many seconds can you regret? How many choices?"

"Only the bad ones," Jacen said.

"And if you don't know immediately whether the decision was good or bad? What if you don't find out the answer for fifty years?"

Jacen looked at her. "Fifty years," he said. "I'm not even twenty. I can't imagine fifty years."

Her tilted eyes shimmered like waves over cold, deep water. There was unconquerable sadness in her voice. "Fifty years ago, young Jedi, I made a decision," she said. "The consequences of that decision echo down the years until today.

And I still do not know whether the decision I made was the right one."


Also see a tiny story from the Huai Nan Tzu, as related by Steven Mitchell in his [excellent] translation of the Tao Te Ching. =)
"Several times now, Achamian thought he had glimpsed golden haloes about Kellhus's hands. He found himself envying those, such as Proyas, who claimed to see them all the time."
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The Thousandfold Thought (2006)
Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 11:36:55 AM by Sepp
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#17  July 02, 2004, 07:44:02 PM
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Let's see, I'm in a rush, but I'll try to address to anyone. Apologies if I leave someone without a reply.

@loona:

We did not promote the elecbyte1 version because:
- there was no mention of Elecbyte credited as the original creator.
- the hack surfaced just when Elecbyte disappeared, giving the idea that it was what caused Eledcbyte to closed thier site
- the DOS hack (yes, there was one prior to the winmugen one) was full with flames to certain members of the community as well, as discrediting Elecbyte.

We promote Rouhei's version because:

- Credits Elecbyte as the original creators
- mention that if Elecbyte ever returns or requests to stop the distribution, he will stop it. DEV will remove the feedback section and forbid further mentioning/distibution of such version
- Current status of mugen falls on abandonware. It's impossible to get mugen from an official source, there's no official support and many computers cannot run in due to XP issues.

We have chosen the lesser evil, as I said. I prefer having a version working and the community happy with it and praising Elecbyte as the original creators, than everybody using a warezed/hacked version crediting to Elecbyte1 (or any other name since you can change it) and forgetting in the long run that mugen originated from Elecbyte. I don't want wither to find winmugen spreading in underground/warez scenes and people from the mugen community migrating to those communities. That will mean the end of our community. Decisions were difficult to take, but we beleived it's the best way to behave.

regarding the  banned people from the elecbyte1 incident, you can unban them. I wonder why you didn't unban them before, since that ban was intended as a temporary one and not a definite one.

Quote
Should Elecbyte find out about this new hack (so far it seems unlikely, unless they've secretly kept an account at Dev for some time and happen to drop by one of these days, or perhaps many months from now) and tell Rou Hei to stop, would this reflect on that new section of Dev's?...
With the renewal of the elecbyte.com domain name for another year, how can we be sure that's not a possibility?...
Considering Dev's completely opposite attitudes regarding the subject at different times still within the validity of that domain name, I think it's reasonable to ask about this...

Now it's time for some hypothesis. We argued that with other developers the days before taking our decission.

We don't beleive that Elecbyte will return. It's now clear that they won't do that, and the renewal of their domain is only justified to avoid domain-thieves taking that domain name and turning it into a pr0n/warez site. If I were elecbyte I wouldn't like the idea of having a pr0n site using my name. And why in the hell would you pay for a domain if you aren't actually using it? the only reasonable reason is in order to protect the name.

Furthermore, we believe that Elecbyte was decided to abandon mugen. What company in his sanity will give betas of their program to people they don't know on the internet, and expect them to keep it privately? It's expected that the beta will be leaked to friends, and these friends will leak to other friends, and etc... Locking features will allow to hold the openly distribution of such beta. But why did elecbyte just blocked the modes? Wouldn't it be better to simply remove them?? They could have released a minimugen version if they wanted, but they didn't. they just released a beta with all stuff included, just locked, that any hacker with some ASM knowledge will be able to unlock it.

And why then they wanted donations? To buy a compiler? WTF, they already compiled the program and it ran fine, before getting donations. The compiler excuse was just to get some bucks for their work. They knew that it wasn't viable to have mugen being sold, since everybody will stick to the free version, and I guess that they expected more donations and the few ones made them to find out that selling mugen wasn't viable.

Therefore, the conclusion is that they deliberately decided to close the doors, give a functional beta to some people knowing that someday this beta will be fiunctional due to some ASM tweaking. Leaking betas wasn't new to them. once in the past they allowed peopel to betatest their storyboard player, and it was leaked and published in many sites (although it's use wasn't interesting for gaming thus people soon forgot about this program). They already knew that people leked their bet before they released winmugen.

So, that's why we beleive that Elecbyte won't return. And therefore, official support for mugen is over.

MFG can announce rouhei's version freely. We only mentioned that official feedback and support is done in DEV, because RouHei is registered there and actually getting that feedback. MFG members can post their feedback here if they want, but RouHei won't get anything from it. And certainly, it's utopic to say that someone will forward all that feedback to DEV in real time, since it won't happen. The fact that MFG will have to post the feedback in DEV won't steal members from this forum. So, why "waste" feedback that can be vital, if they can just post that in DEV. Btw, wasn't the idea of this forum to teach their members about ethics of the community and allow them to share them in other communities? Then, why are you forbidding the possibility for such members to register in another community so they can post their feedback? In DEV, we mention to our members that requests can be made in MFG. Why can MFG tell their members to go to DEV and post feedback. Seems unfairly to me if you don't allow that.

And there's a reason to have all feeedback focused in an only place: Could you imagine a program like MAME if all developers used their own places to improve the program and weren't in touch with the other devleopers. You will end up with multiple MAME emulators each one emulating different games and having different features. There must be an unique and official place where the developers meet and share their knowledge. It happens that DEV was the first one to contact rouhei and he agreed with the idea, weeks before the "hack" was announced. It's the drawback of the resources that DEV has, and sadly MFG doesn't. maybe in the future MFG will be the main hub of mugen community, as it was TESTP in the past. But currently, DEV is still THE hub, even if there's few activity in the forum.

@Sepp: Yes, you can argue that this is only a maneuver to revive DEV, but it doesn't really matter if it is or not.

The fact is that mugen community was fading and many creators either quit or kept their work under secrecy shared only with friends that happen to use a hacked mugen version.

After the announcing of our decission, many creators have returned to business. I prefer the revival of the community (especially the creative one) than just the revival of a simple forum. It happens that DEV was in the right place at the right time, but it could have happened with any other forum.  
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#18  July 02, 2004, 08:09:33 PM
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I fully agree that if possible all feedback go back to Dev.

But should we not expand the rights to use abandoned stuff that creators left behind?

To me allowing this is more severe than simply grabbing some stuff a creator abandoned.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#19  July 02, 2004, 08:28:27 PM
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Disclaimer:  I haven't read everything that's been said about the issue, so sorry if I reiterate anything or say something stupid as a result.


Sepp:  :)


XGargoyle: :no:
(Sorry, really don't have time to argue with any of those points.  Just felt like mentioning that I disagree with a majority of the text in your post below the quote. :P )
Though, guess I'll point out that if there's going to be an official WinMugen forum, MFG would be a better choice than Dev for the simple reason that it uses tolerable forum software.  I hate to think how frustrated Rou Hei will feel when he discovers that there's no search function, and he has to wade through oodles of Eigo trying to find what he was looking for.


In case it hasn't already been mentioned: We're already violating the license by using it beyond the expiration date, even if we're using DOS or Linux Mugen, right?

Personally, I think I'll wait until I get around to trying to contact someone from Elecbyte myself, probably the weekend after this one (don't wanna bother him while he's busy), before deciding about anything in regard to WinMugen.  In the meantime, I think I'll just continue finding amusement in watching people like Herman and especially Legato misdiagnose stuff and make bad recommendations at Dev. :D


So Dev still sure thinks pretty highly of itself, it seems.
Still quite busy.

(Yes, I intend to deal with that stuff eventually, but kinda can't just yet, sorry. :/ )
Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 08:32:10 PM by Might be BlackJack
Re: Way to go Dev >:( =P
#20  July 03, 2004, 01:06:54 AM
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@Sepp: Yes, you can argue that this is only a maneuver to revive DEV, but it doesn't really matter if it is or not.

Oh. I didn't want to say that. I wanted to say it should be clear that it is also a Dev-revival method.

*Think You Know Who* did really not begin this initiative in order to save DEV.


After all, DEV is only a forum. It has been dying for the longest time now, maybe it will actually make it through a revival, or maybe it was already too far gone.

Guild on the other hand has almost taken DEV's place, but not really yet, and maybe never.

But DEV was the obvious choice, regardless of software. *We* could be sure to control the "situation" there. We required that much certainty at least. Of the consequences, there could no certainty. They will be dealt and lived with as they come, without endless prior speculation.


Anyway, that has been done. No more justification stuff. Decisions made. As Winane said - MUGEN licenses ran out long time ago. As ShoShingo said, we are illegally using copyrighted intellecutal property and whatnot.

Let's not make up long lists of Why This Was Necessary and Right or Wrong now, or Why It Could Have Been If We Assume That So And Such. It's . . . tiresome, and we have few facts.


I think there has been enough "explanation" (!= justification) in order to enable a understanding of the decisions which were made and why.


Question at hand is: What will *Guild* do?

Answer: Wait, think and see; for now.



Dreamslayer:

Unless vanished creator was known for message like NOT DO MODIFY or REDISTRIBUTE, yes.

Wait, *we* didn't even "care" about that in Elecbyte's case. OMG. :o


Somehow all this chained my thoughts to a mental search for Limits of What Can Be Allowed and ended somewhat confusingly at There Are No Rules. But there are rules of thumb. Or something. Now I have to reread Traitor. Bastards.
"Several times now, Achamian thought he had glimpsed golden haloes about Kellhus's hands. He found himself envying those, such as Proyas, who claimed to see them all the time."
--R. Scott Bakker
The Thousandfold Thought (2006)